Kitana General Discussion

[fredchuckdave]

Semiij Vs Kombat (Raiden)

How many mercies can you fit in one set?

 

[Tanya-Fan-28]

Semiij Vs Kombat (Raiden)

How many mercies can you fit in one set?

If they timed Kitanas getups better and used u2 instead of u3 then i don't think they'd have to deal with losing to mercy's so much lol

 

[JDE]

The downplay is real!

I think she is perfect honestly, she is safe on everything and can convert off any starter into meterless damage, if she spends a bar she gets slightly better damage and great oki options off MB square wave, not to mention she can always choose to use her quick execution krushing blow for great damage, only very few characters have easy krushing blow damage that they can use whenever they want like her and that is HUGE for comebacks.

Her defense is very good IMO, b2 and b1 are both godlike whiff punishers, d4 in the neutral is so good and her d2 IMO is great, idk why people say it's bad.
Her staggers are gonna be harder to pull off as time goes on obviously but that doesn't mean they are bad at all... Look at Catwoman in Injustice 2, she always was able to get damage off staggers mindgames, this is one of Kitanas biggest strenghts imo, just because it's not easy mode as picking up Sonya and going for a 50/50 into 40% doesn't mean it's bad. Her throw game is actually very good since she has a good mid in b1 that she can always mix up with her grabs.

Yeah, her zoning is pretty meh most of the times but she has a check at least and fans are meant to be used in the neutral to force people to jump or try dangerous stuff, one good thing her fans have is that their hitbox is actually pretty good as always.

Basically I think she plays MK11 very well, she is pretty honest IMO but she is very good at making her oponents make mistakes... Except Sonya who can just outzone her and mix her up to death when they're up-close lol... Yeah, Sonya makes me so salty!


EDIT: Oh! Also... When the flawless block meta evolves more and more she is gonna play it very well thanks to her krushing blows off b231U2 and b142, also she will be able to use the flawless block on the last hit of b231u4 to her advantage by using the kick ender to mess with people's timing

AND she has some of the easiest krushing blow requirements, which is huge as I have said before.

I agree! Great points by the way.

I agree pretty much entirely with all points you bring up and have been having moderate success with her. She has number of good normals that allow her good whiff punishing and easy hit-confirms, on top of being pretty safe. Her damage is also largely meterless outside of MB Square Wave for same-side OKI which is a great plus.

I do however think it is worth having a discussion about areas Kitana is currently lacking without having to re-tread things we all know such as “no Sonya mix-ups” or “she can’t zone like Erron” etc.

For one – while the combination of a good set of jumping normals, Air Fan Toss, and the somewhat unique Fan Flutter give her a pretty compelling air game compared to much of the roster; it currently does not feel strong enough to really define her as a character. Even with those extra options many characters feel comfortable taking to the air against her. Given that she lacks a great zoning, mix-up, or pressure game this seems like a bit of a missed opportunity.

Speaking of missed opportunities - it is a shame that Kitana has the millstone round her neck of having what may as well be a single tournament variation. Half Blood Stance brings almost nothing to the table that rounds out her kit on top of some really baffling design choices such as the stab KB being tied to the awful sai projectile and the fact that teleport kick seems almost un-usable thanks to its delayed start-up and non-existent follow-up options with or without MB. The saving grace of the second variant could have been Edenian Razors which allows for some great meterless combo damage in the corner – but comes at the expense of Fan Lift which neuters Kitana’s already somewhat middling damage anywhere outside of the corner given she lacks a traditional pop-up string for extending combos without it.

There is also the somewhat double-edged sword of that meterless damage. While on the one hand this means we can play relatively conservatively with offensive meter, it also happens to highlight the fact that she lacks any particularly compelling MB options. Aside from the moderate utility of MB Fan Toss and the slightly extra damage from ending a combo with MB Square Wave there really is not anything for us to spend meter on special-wise which feels like a bit of a let-down, especially when transitioning from characters that meter-burn to get extra damage / corner carry in BnBs.

All-in-all to me Kitana feels somewhat hampered by the load-out system. Too much of Kitana’s power-budget is locked away to either custom load-outs or in lose-lose scenarios like the aforementioned trading Fan Lift for Edenian Razors. Small loadout tweaks like the Fan Toss Variants, Retreating and Advancing Fan Flutter, Royal Protection, Ground War etc. being built into her base kit rather than locked behind allocation would round-out her game a lot more. It all comes back to that slightly sour taste of realizing that there are characters who are “komplete” without their variants and just get extra power from them.

All of this doesn’t change the fact that I think Kitana is in an alright place though and again – I have been having moderate success with her. MK11 is at its core fundamental enough that Kitana’s quality strings and easy hit-confirms / whiff punishing has a lot of mileage in the current state of the game, I just wonder if it is going to continue to hold up as people get a better handle on the characters with 50/50s, 40% single-meter damage etc.

I’d love to hear your guys thoughts and if I’ve got anything completely off the ball / missed the mark completely compared to your experiences.

I actually think she plays well. I really haven't had issues with her. The only real issue that I've had so far was her D2 whiffing after reacting to grabs or highs in general, but it could be my timing. But I honestly don't think she's bad at all. Mr. J, & Black Volter said this on twitter as well. To me she's good but also relatively honest. I don't have much to add because you 2 & Khaotik have brought up why I feel she is great. I think ppl are still thinking too much of how she used to zone in previous games and extend combos.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I would really like to get into the Sai variation but find the combos outside of the corner very lacking... do you play it as more of a zoning variation?

Do you have any footage from the sets you were talking about?

They were streamed last night on twitch.Tv/streamofthehut

 

[Law Hero]

Semiij Vs Kombat (Raiden)

How many mercies can you fit in one set?

That 226 damage bnb he does isn't the best one is it? Was he just using that for online sets, or is there something I'm missing?

 

[gitblame]

Whiffing issues is something that game in generall suffers. That's why I don't really include it as Kitana flaw. It has to be fixed ASAP if this game suppose to be tournament viable and we don't want to see 10 the same characters which does not suffer because of this.

 

[MK-Gray]

I actually think she plays well. I really haven't had issues with her.

I concur that she plays quite well. Despite my post highlighting a few of her issues I have been having moderate success with her and she’s far from Shao Khan tier, she’s also not like Kung Lao in that she is not just a worse version of another character..

'Honest' is exactly the right diagnosis. She is fine - but being honest in the current state of the game where the upper-echelon of character strength is defined by true 50/50s, crazy mix-ups, and 40%+ single meter hit-confirms just does not count for all that much.

I think ppl are still thinking too much of how she used to zone in previous games and extend combos.

This is where we differ in opinion slightly. We remain in agreement that she is largely fine at the moment and you can make her work. It is however my opinion that Kitana has lost a bit of her defining spark in MK11. Without her strong zoning game or impressive combo extensions Kitana has been left as a functional but middling character with some quality strings that are moderately safe and offer good hit-confirms, but not much else. Even Fan Flutter and Air Fan do not give her air-game enough “umph” to feel like a defining part of the character.

I am actually at a bit of a loss as to what direction MK11 Kitana is supposed to focused. It certainly is not air game or zoning, nor corner carry or mid-screen combo extensions. I thought for a little while it may have been corner damage with Edenian Razor shenanigans but even a cursory glance at most of the rosters corner damage rules that out as well.

I will re-iterate that she is far from bottom of the barrel right now and again – she has the tools to function in the current state of the game. It just feel like she is missing something right now and it will take either some pretty hefty balance tweaks or a big shake-up of her tournament variations to change that.

 

[xWildx]

She’s missing her air control. 90% of the characters in this game have some form of air control or air mobility.

Kitana is known for it and they took it away from her for the most part. If she FORCED people to stay on the ground she’d honestly be a completely different character.

 

[xKhaoTik]

She’s missing her air control. 90% of the characters in this game have some form of air control or air mobility.

Kitana is known for it and they took it away from her for the most part. If she FORCED people to stay on the ground she’d honestly be a completely different character.

I REALLY don’t understand why they did that. It’s been her niche. But nope, let’s have Liu Kang convert from his iaf anywhere in the screen and get 300+ damage easy.

 

[MkPeezy]

She's not bad... her major flawless like xwildx and xkhaotik said is her air control is non existent, she has one string b2 and b14(2) for the kb and her fan combos are lol foh. The best part about Kitana is once you learn the bnbs every main had their own swag/bnbs of how and in what order they would do their combos. I thought it was super dope, like I do this sequence but this Kitana does this sequence and we get the same damage but we put our own flavor into it. Now it's like everyone has to do the same shit to be optimal. Shit is like eating boiled chicken.

 

[JDE]

I concur that she plays quite well. Despite my post highlighting a few of her issues I have been having moderate success with her and she’s far from Shao Khan tier, she’s also not like Kung Lao in that she is not just a worse version of another character..

'Honest' is exactly the right diagnosis. She is fine - but being honest in the current state of the game where the upper-echelon of character strength is defined by true 50/50s, crazy mix-ups, and 40%+ single meter hit-confirms just does not count for all that much.



This is where we differ in opinion slightly. We remain in agreement that she is largely fine at the moment and you can make her work. It is however my opinion that Kitana has lost a bit of her defining spark in MK11. Without her strong zoning game or impressive combo extensions Kitana has been left as a functional but middling character with some quality strings that are moderately safe and offer good hit-confirms, but not much else. Even Fan Flutter and Air Fan do not give her air-game enough “umph” to feel like a defining part of the character.

I am actually at a bit of a loss as to what direction MK11 Kitana is supposed to focused. It certainly is not air game or zoning, nor corner carry or mid-screen combo extensions. I thought for a little while it may have been corner damage with Edenian Razor shenanigans but even a cursory glance at most of the rosters corner damage rules that out as well.

I will re-iterate that she is far from bottom of the barrel right now and again – she has the tools to function in the current state of the game. It just feel like she is missing something right now and it will take either some pretty hefty balance tweaks or a big shake-up of her tournament variations to change that.

I actually agree with the 2nd part too, but at the same time, I'm just not as vocal about it because it's not much we can do at this point except wonder why they did it. It is what it is. Maybe they'll consider adding some stuff back? I think they tried to play it safe with giving her tools from what it seems like. I play Cassie too. So I definitely question why they did what they did lol.

 

[Rozalin1780]

If she could control the air with confidence, she’d basically be MK9 Kitana — the best iteration we’ve ever had. Minus cutter, of course.

I’m sure good things will come in due time. We endured vanilla MKX, we can endure this.

 

[MK-Gray]

I actually agree with the 2nd part too, but at the same time, I'm just not as vocal about it because it's not much we can do at this point except wonder why they did it. It is what it is. Maybe they'll consider adding some stuff back? I think they tried to play it safe with giving her tools from what it seems like. I play Cassie too. So I definitely question why they did what they did lol.

We are pretty much on the same page. I do like to wonder how some of these things got across the starting line though. A few of the characters feel borderline unfinished, or like their tournament load-outs were chosen by rolling a dice etc. My current big ??? is Why D'Vorah is like -1000 on almost every string without any big gimmick to balance such a crippling down-side out, but this isn't the thread to discuss such things haha.

Also as a bit of an aside - has anyone figured out if Half Blood Sai / Half Blood Dive Kick can be combo'd into anywhere on screen while using her Highborn variation? The lack of Fan Flutter and Fan Lift already make playing it a bit iffy - but the stance feels like it was just straight-up not play-tested outside of combo practice in training mode.

 

[xWildx]

I REALLY don’t understand why they did that. It’s been her niche. But nope, let’s have Liu Kang convert from his iaf anywhere in the screen and get 300+ damage easy.

This is my biggest issue with her, overall. Without her air game, she has her standard ground game and that’s about it, but other characters play the ground game so much better than her.

She plays MK11 well, and given the game’s design, I feel the better player will win with her regardless, but at the expense of her identity. If absolutely nothing else, I’d like to see her back walk speed increased just a touch. Let her be the whiff punisher she was in MK9.

 

[DarksydeDash]

They probably denied her air game for her up fans to be used in a later variation, those things cover massive space and give her fan combos galore.

 

[MK-Gray]

They probably denied her air game for her up fans to be used in a later variation, those things cover massive space and give her fan combos galore.

It would be a shame if that was the case... Though it wouldn't be the strangest thing to consider given the potential some of her moves open up. Fan Tornado turns Half Blood Stance from a non-existent option select to a reliable extra KB / combo extension since it allows Sai Toss and Dive Kick to combo properly. Then there's her flip special KB which offers a big damage combo off any confirm. Wish we didn't have to wonder though.

 

[DarksydeDash]

It would be a shame if that was the case... Though it wouldn't be the strangest thing to consider given the potential some of her moves open up. Fan Tornado turns Half Blood Stance from a non-existent option select to a reliable extra KB / combo extension since it allows Sai Toss and Dive Kick to combo properly. Then there's her flip special KB which offers a big damage combo off any confirm. Wish we didn't have to wonder though.

Don't forget that low fan toss gives her a pseudo 50/50, an actual zoning option, and.. Whatever the hell the ex one does lmao.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Also, Fan-nado makes the max range ass KB an actual 30% zoning option that they can't break out of.

 

[MK-Gray]

Don't forget that low fan toss gives her a pseudo 50/50, an actual zoning option, and.. Whatever the hell the ex one does lmao.

Also, Fan-nado makes the max range ass KB an actual 30% zoning option that they can't break out of.

Exactly! I swear every day I get closer to the "they totally chose these variations with pins on a dart-board" conclusion. I can't wait to see what they do about the tournament variation corner they've designed themselves in to as it gives some characters everything they need and completely shafts others.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I'm honestly thinking of doing a writeup and discussion thread for possible variations I'd like to see for her in the future. There's a lot of potential for her and as much as I love playing her, I also like something new thrown into the mix.

 

[MK-Gray]

I suppose it's worth thinking about, trouble for me is it only took like an hour of playing around with the loadouts for it to sink in just how lackluster the tournament variations are and how the move combinations don't really gel together.

Royal Protection + Piercing Dagger + Low Fan would be a great zoning / counter zoning combination.

Advancing / Retreating Fan Flutter + Edenian Twist would make for a great jump-in / air-to-ground mobility loadout.

Upward Fan Toss + Dancing Fans + Ground War completely shifts Kitana's traditional screen control.

The real kicker is I was struggling to come up with a more disjointed set of 3 abilities that don't really compliment each other than Fan Flutter, Ground War, and Royal Protection and that's currently the BETTER of our two load-outs.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I'll say it because no else will: ROYAL PROTECTION SUCKS.

Characters like Lui, Cetrion, Erron, Sonya, Johnny, etc. all have multiple projectiles when they amplify it so you absorb one to only eat another. In Cetrion's case, you absorb a rock only to get punished by her fullscreen combo starter.

Remember how Royal Storm in MKX had a parry we could hold? And how Assassin had a physical parry we can hold? This feels like a step down.

 

[MK-Gray]

I'll say it because no else will: ROYAL PROTECTION SUCKS.

Characters like Lui, Cetrion, Erron, Sonya, Johnny, etc. all have multiple projectiles when they amplify it so you absorb one to only eat another. In Cetrion's case, you absorb a rock only to get punished by her fullscreen combo starter.

Remember how Royal Storm in MKX had a parry we could hold? And how Assassin had a physical parry we can hold? This feels like a step down.

The strange thing about it is that it feels like they didn't want the projectile shut-down or the glowing fans buff of Royal Protection to be too strong, so they settled for both components of the move being crappy lol.

 

[Rozalin1780]

I'll say it because no else will: ROYAL PROTECTION SUCKS.

Characters like Lui, Cetrion, Erron, Sonya, Johnny, etc. all have multiple projectiles when they amplify it so you absorb one to only eat another. In Cetrion's case, you absorb a rock only to get punished by her fullscreen combo starter.

Remember how Royal Storm in MKX had a parry we could hold? And how Assassin had a physical parry we can hold? This feels like a step down.

The duration of the buff from Royal Protection is crap as well. You get... a fan toss out of it before it’s gone? I miss Sharpen...

 

[Madog32]

I'll say it because no else will: ROYAL PROTECTION SUCKS.

Characters like Lui, Cetrion, Erron, Sonya, Johnny, etc. all have multiple projectiles when they amplify it so you absorb one to only eat another. In Cetrion's case, you absorb a rock only to get punished by her fullscreen combo starter.

Remember how Royal Storm in MKX had a parry we could hold? And how Assassin had a physical parry we can hold? This feels like a step down.

Right? Even non-amp'ed projectiles like Cassies that are 2 bullets aren't properly absorbed