Dear NRS: Why was the Joker Nerfed so badly from Injustice 1?

[Vengeance135]

I've been doing well with joker so far against some notable players. Things I've noticed is that I can usually go the whole match (win or lose) without doing a bnb. It's all random confirms and gunshots/counterzoning with teeth in front of me the whole time. Pressure when I can get in. And destroy in the corner. He's decent. Mid tier to me. And that's a big jump from bottom 5 in inj1

Ah I see, do you have footage by chance? And who have you been playing? Do they know the Joker MU?

 

[Jack White]

What anti-zoning tools does Black Canary have? Her level 3 trait that gets stuffed by any projectile that moves quicker than the scream?

It isn't much, but the fact that she has a cartwheel and the ability to threaten a full combo punish anywhere from the screen is more than the Joker has. And when she does get up close, she can convert big damage from overheads and lows, which is a greater reward than the Joker gets everywhere but in the corner.

My point is though, she feels more like a well thought out character in terms of balance. A character that relies on getting up close, but also has huge damage and real mix ups when she gets there. Joker by contrast is soley focused on the corner and not much else. He gets outzoned hard by characters with decent projectiles, and up close he's actually worse than many of the people that zone him.

 

[Vengeance135]

It isn't much, but the fact that she has a cartwheel and the ability to threaten a full combo punish anywhere from the screen is more than the Joker has. And when she does get up close, she can convert big damage from overheads and lows, which is a greater reward than the Joker gets everywhere but in the corner.

My point is though, she feels more like a well thought out character in terms of balance. A character that relies on getting up close, but also has huge damage and real mix ups when she gets there. Joker by contrast is soley focused on the corner and not much else. He gets outzoned hard by characters with decent projectiles, and up close he's actually worse than many of the people that zone him.

Well said, I got salty when I saw that lol

 

[Vengeance135]

@Notez4 if you have anything to share with us please do, because to the people that actually know the Joker MU, he gets blown up extremely easy and tools like pushblock and mb roll work against him just as well as they work for him.

 

[ImperatrixSindel]

to be fair isnt he like

dead

 

[HellblazerHawkman]

Wait... doesn't she have decent starters? Decent neutral? A decent trait? Parries? Good damage? Decent normals and combo starters? Does she need anti zoning tools Also? Joker has almost none of the above things I just listed.

I'm not asking for her to be the next Aquaman, I'm just not understanding someone saying Canary has anti-zoning tools when I'm not seeing them.

It isn't much, but the fact that she has a cartwheel and the ability to threaten a full combo punish anywhere from the screen is more than the Joker has. And when she does get up close, she can convert big damage from overheads and lows, which is a greater reward than the Joker gets everywhere but in the corner.

My point is though, she feels more like a well thought out character in terms of balance. A character that relies on getting up close, but also has huge damage and real mix ups when she gets there. Joker by contrast is soley focused on the corner and not much else. He gets outzoned hard by characters with decent projectiles, and up close he's actually worse than many of the people that zone him.

I can agree with that, I'm not even trying to say Joker isn't a worse character than Canary. I don't think that helps you argue against the people just saying to "level up" when you put her cartwheel as a better anti-zoning tool than Joker's pistol and canister (they might be awful, I don't really play Joker). Hope I'm not derailing this too much here

 

[Vengeance135]

to be fair isnt he like

dead

What was the point in this comment? Seriously

 

[ImperatrixSindel]

What was the point in this comment? Seriously

i'm just saying if i got a hole punched in my chest i might be a little out of it too

 

[DarksydeDash]

Maybe the best way to look at Joker is because he had strong tools and tech in the first game but the other characters happened to be stronger than him, so it is only fair that if they tone down legacy characters. Why should Joker be ignored when he had plus on hit restands, great damage, and a 50/50 otg. Seriously, the character got buffed with all those great mids and the overall walk speed improvement. FYI, he can combo into his trait and end in a HDK so it is easy as hell to setup his speed increase, which btw lets you get in on zoners easier. Just saying.. Explore your character more before you make rushed complaints.

 

[Vengeance135]

I'm not asking for her to be the next Aquaman, I'm just not understanding someone saying Canary has anti-zoning tools when I'm not seeing them.


I can agree with that, I'm not even trying to say Joker isn't a worse character than Canary. I don't think that helps you argue against the people just saying to "level up" when you put her cartwheel as a better anti-zoning tool than Joker's pistol and canister (they might be awful, I don't really play Joker). Hope I'm not derailing this too much here

Honestly, no character should be the perfect character, however NRS is really good at making damn near perfect characters and damn near impossible characters. Joker is a prime example of a impossible character. To me, canary was a well made character that I've personally seen but they've had 4 years to develop joker and he is literally getting worse. We've had 4 years of leveling up and in injustice 1, I would say I was a damn good joker, beating my fair share of great to top players. However more then half the tools that made him more viable were taken away... how do you level up when your tools have been taken away for no reason and you were given nothing in return?

 

[Error]

I thought we were already past complaining about I2 getting rid of + frames galore on every string and wake-ups + jump ins being adjusted, something they did for every character?

Anyways Joker sucks because he's Joker @Evil Canadian

 

[Vengeance135]

Maybe the best way to look at Joker is because he had strong tools and tech in the first game but the other characters happened to be stronger than him, so it is only fair that if they tone down legacy characters. Why should Joker be ignored when he had plus on hit restands, great damage, and a 50/50 otg. Seriously, the character got buffed with all those great mids and the overall walk speed improvement. FYI, he can combo into his trait and end in a HDK so it is easy as hell to setup his speed increase, which btw lets you get in on zoners easier. Just saying.. Explore your character more before you make rushed complaints.

You're kidding? Do you even use Joker? Have you even vs a legacy character in injustice 2? Other legacy characters toned down? Have you watched any tournaments? Please don't tell me who you use. You obviously haven't read this thread thoroughly. Joker had all those tools in injustice 1 and still was considered the worse character. He gets nerfed in injustice 2, while black Adam and batman still run rampant. Did you even know the joker match up or did you get bodied by a Joker and assume he was broken because you didn't try to figure out the MU. Stop please, don't respond until you have read this thread thoroughly and understand what we, the joker community are trying to say.

 

[Vengeance135]

i'm just saying if i got a hole punched in my chest i might be a little out of it too

Lol I'm weak

 

[trufenix]

We honestly need a subforum for pointless arbitrary buff beg dog piles. I miss OPs that used to be like, "need help with this mu" or "please give a good use for x" or "trying to punish y after z, ideas?".

This entire discussion is useless, and yet this is the kind of thread that has "dear nrs" in the title and stays on Recent Posts all damned day.

 

[CasualPlayer]

all i wanted was mb gunshot to be mid instead we get what little bit of dirt joker has nerfed. smh

 

[Vengeance135]

We honestly need a subforum for pointless arbitrary buff beg dog piles. I miss OPs that used to be like, "need help with this mu" or "please give a good use for x" or "trying to punish y after z, ideas?".

This entire discussion is useless, and yet this is the kind of thread that has "dear nrs" in the title and stays on Recent Posts all damned day.

Lol it's funny you say all that. It's pretty clear you haven't mained a terrible character for 4 years. The main reason some people play this game is because their favor character is in it. When playing your favorite character becomes null and void because of how bad the balance is, people start to play the game less. What's the point in playing a game if the only character you use on a competitive level sucks and the only way you can make an impact in a tournament is if you actually use a top or mid top tier character? The Joker community has stayed relatively quiet while the rest of this community bitched and moaned over everything wrong with a perfectly viable character and guess what? They got what they wanted. It's a shame that after 4 years of consistently being a bad character, we finally have to resort to complaining to make an impact and people like you want to ignore it because it's not your character. I bet sooner or later you're going to bitch about something with your character and want something switched and guess what? You And you're community are going to have to bitch to get any improvement.

And before you say I suck, please add me on psn. My tag is Vengeance135.

And on the behalf of the joker community if you aren't going to support us then please...

 

[Jack White]

I'm not asking for her to be the next Aquaman, I'm just not understanding someone saying Canary has anti-zoning tools when I'm not seeing them.


I can agree with that, I'm not even trying to say Joker isn't a worse character than Canary. I don't think that helps you argue against the people just saying to "level up" when you put her cartwheel as a better anti-zoning tool than Joker's pistol and canister (they might be awful, I don't really play Joker). Hope I'm not derailing this too much here

That's fair. The canisters are absolutely horrendous for zoning (the high one has over 40 frames of start up!), but the gun is something despite being slow. You have a point on Canary, I don't main her, it just felt like having the cry was a legitimate fear inducing tool that let her cartwheel scared zoners. You have a point though that some projectiles are too fast for that, that's fair. I will stick to the fact that Canary is way better at capitalizing once she's in though.

Maybe the best way to look at Joker is because he had strong tools and tech in the first game but the other characters happened to be stronger than him, so it is only fair that if they tone down legacy characters. Why should Joker be ignored when he had plus on hit restands, great damage, and a 50/50 otg. Seriously, the character got buffed with all those great mids and the overall walk speed improvement. FYI, he can combo into his trait and end in a HDK so it is easy as hell to setup his speed increase, which btw lets you get in on zoners easier. Just saying.. Explore your character more before you make rushed complaints.

I'm sorry, but you sound like you have no idea what you're saying when it comes to this character. Legacy characters got nerfed? Have you seen Black Adam and Batman lately? And 50/50 OTG's? You mean the ones that didn't exist outside the corner and don't exist at all in this game? "Great mids"? You mean the moves with gaps on them, and the only things he can use to start combos? And the plus on hit restand that was REMOVED in this game?

And again, you are missing the problem with his trait. I know all about the combos. It's not that it was hard to initiate, it's that it isn't worth initiating. And there's a massive logical hole in your post. So Joker can easily set up his trait on zoners if he combos them and that can help him get in easily on them, but the problem is getting in to land combos in the first place. On top of that, you are seriously over estimating the effectiveness of the level 3 trait.

I wish people who can come up here and act high and mighty and say "just explore your character guys" would take 2 seconds to try him out themselves. He's clearly underpowered anyone can see that. You don't need a rocket scientist to decipher this, NRS has made obviously underpowered characters before in the past.

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

Maybe the best way to look at Joker is because he had strong tools and tech in the first game but the other characters happened to be stronger than him, so it is only fair that if they tone down legacy characters. Why should Joker be ignored when he had plus on hit restands, great damage, and a 50/50 otg. Seriously, the character got buffed with all those great mids and the overall walk speed improvement. FYI, he can combo into his trait and end in a HDK so it is easy as hell to setup his speed increase, which btw lets you get in on zoners easier. Just saying.. Explore your character more before you make rushed complaints.

1. Joker had all these things, yet he was still one of the worst in the game. Now, they nerfed them even more, making him even worse at what he's supposed to do best - setups
2. Walk speed improvement is great so agreed on that. However, to take away so many of joker's vital tools (for wakeup, setups, etc) is a big price for walk speed. Also don't know what "great mid buffs" you say we got.
3. Yes, we know we can get trait into a combo. Then what? Specifically, in what way does that truly help Joker get another hit in? In our experiences, nothing.
Lastly, we've explored this character. We explored him religiously in inj1, and we still are. You can deem these as "rushed" complaints, but these are colossal problems. We are not going to sit back anymore as we watch others get the fixes they want for their characters while we're left in the gutter.

 

[MrSunshine]

If you're going to defend that joker is mid tier or okay please post evidence/backings for your claims.

It's amazing how people think joker players don't know what they're talking about when we've been playing the same character for almost four years. The character has received minor tweaks and overall nerfs towards the characters move set.

The character barely has any footage of tournament viability and top players have difficulty against him due to lack of exposure.

 

[MrSunshine]

Also, the joker community should chill out and act civil. I understand the passion but treat others with respect.

 

[Jack White]

Also, the joker community should chill out and act civil. I understand the passion but treat others with respect.

I agree with this. @Vengeance135 , I'm sure there's a way to explain things to people without dropping f-bombs. I think most players here are genuinely ignorant of the character's problems and don't understand that we've been trying to deal with them for 4 long years. I don't think Pig got this kind of pushback when he loudly begged for Sinestro buffs when IJ1 launched, so I think it's a little unfair that we get treated like babies when we made do for so long already only to be met with an avalanche of nerfs.

 

[alkipot]

Sad to say that I now use Joker for... "jokes". Was really hoping he'd be better this time around, but I had to push him to sub status.

Cheetah is my go to main, and she has some major issues, but not nearly as bad as Joker.

At least he can fight people with lots of mids and overheads ok, like WW and Scarecrow lol.

 

[Thingy]

I feel like Wonder Woman and Joker got the worst treatment from game to game. There was no reason to make those characters significantly worse.

 

[RNLDRGN]

Never trust Pig on anything regarding the Joker. He has always overrated him and said he was "fine" no matter how bad he was. When Injustice 1 launched, Pig said Joker was "secretly" good, but he never stopped whining about how bad Sinestro was until he got buffed like crazy. Pig will only be honest when it comes to his own mains.

Pig openly stated on his stream a few nights ago he doesn't know much about the joker, so what makes his opinion viable? Again, somebody that tries to argue and ultimately fails. I watched those 2 players play. Half the reason they were winning was because nobody knows the joker MU. Bdog was literally getting away with murder in his set.

Fair enough. I was more so asking if anyone had seen these players or had commentary on the matter rather than saying Pig's word is gospel.

I think there's probably a happy medium between Joker downplaying & up-playing. At least that's the case with most of the lower tier characters (luv u Swamp).

 

[Notez4]

@Notez4 if you have anything to share with us please do, because to the people that actually know the Joker MU, he gets blown up extremely easy and tools like pushblock and mb roll work against him just as well as they work for him.

I'm pretty bad at explaining matchups. But if you have a character or player in mind I'll try to setup a set that I can record and post to start some matchup discussions.