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Dear NRS: Why was the Joker Nerfed so badly from Injustice 1?

Jack White

The Clown Prince of Crime
Why did you gimp the Joker, a character that struggled in the first game?

Why did you butcher the hitbox on his J2?
Why did you you remove all his OTGs?
Why did you slow down the gas canister and gut its frame advantage on meter burn?
Why did you remove the acid flower, his only reliable wake up?
Why did you make him less + on so many things and slow down his specials?

The worst part about all these nerfs (and I'm sure there's more) is that at the same time, nothing went into address his glaring problems from the first game.

Why does he still have a useless trait? Who at NRS honestly thinks faster jumps/walk speed is a good enough effect to justify having to activate the trait 3 times? Almost every other character gets a better effect just for pressing trait once. Why does the Joker need to work so hard to get such a mediocre ability? This trait needs a total rework, it's trash.

Why do his combo strings still have gap issues? 212 and f23 in particular still don't work right. Some whiffing issues were dealt with, but a host of other issues cropped up in its place.

Why does he still get boxed out by zoning? Sure, there are characters in every fighting game that lose to certain types of play styles, but with the Joker, it's ridiculous. Fighting a good Dr. Fate shouldn't feel hopeless most of the time. He needs good anti-zoning tools on the level of Catwoman and Black Canary since his whole play style is based on getting in people's face.

Why is his neutral still so terrible? In order for Joker to get big damage he has to either land a mid or a jump in. He has no reliable low starters or overheads that can be meter burned. That is horrendous, especially when compounded with the fact that he was nerfed overall. The fact that he has this issue while also having no decent advancing normals is crippling. He's bad at dealing with zoning, but even when he gets in he's horrendous at opening up the opponent outside the corner. This makes zero sense.

What makes all these balancing issues so glaring is that in comparison to most of the cast, they're ridiculous. Why does Joker need to have his j2 nerfed, but Batman gets to keep his? Why does Joker need to lose his wakeup move, but Dr. Fate gets to have a safe full screen knocking anti airing invincible wake-up? Why does Harley get an entirely new and useful trait, while Joker's trait changes misses the point of why his trait was so bad in the first place? It wasn't just that it was too hard to get the HA's in the first game, it's that the HA's themselves are a useless bonus even at 3.

To sum up, as Alioune puts it:

Joker currently "gets outzoned by the same characters that rush him down. No wakeup reversal, no trait and no advancing normal= RIP in this game"


PS: MB gun is mostly useless because of its horrendous hit box. It's hard to combo into and even if you land the combo, the reward isn't so great. There's no reason this move shouldn't be a mid. Literally the only good addition was the joybuzzer since it's great at bullying opponents who mindlessly do wakeup attacks, but the fact that it has no low variation is a glaring weakness.

EDIT: Added section on string gaps as per @StevoSuprem0 's request.
 
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Maasik

Noob
I dont mean to be a dick here.. but instead of saying things like "our character got butchered and this thread will never see the light of day", lets be productive and level up with our character instead of whining for buffs.

I think a better way to go about these issues would be to collectively find and use all possible tech. Figure out optimal distances for gun use, MB rolls, parrying gaps in strings/pressure, optimal punishes with corner carry, etc. Its obvious Joker is an absolute monster in the corner and has the damage to take games, the problem is his neutral and opening up the opponent mid-screen.

So lets take our character to the highest level possible, hit up tournaments, show both NRS and the community what our character can truly do and let the results speak for themselves. If Joker still seems lackluster, cant get out of pools and is just getting washed.. people will see and he will get the love I personally agree that he needs.
 
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StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I dont mean to be a dick here.. but instead of saying things like "our character got butchered and this thread will never see the light of day", lets be productive and level up with our character instead of whining for buffs.

I think a better way to go about these issues would be to collectively find and use all possible tech. Figure out optimal distances for gun use, MB rolls, parrying gaps in strings/pressure, optimal punishes with corner carry, etc. Its obvious Joker is an absolute monster in the corner and has the damage to take games, the problem is his neutral and opening up the opponent mid-screen.

So lets take our character to the highest level possible, hit up tournaments, show both NRS and the community what our character can truly do and let the results speak for themselves. If Joker still seems lackluster, cant get out of pools and is just getting washed.. people will see and he will get the love I personally agree that he needs.
Because we did that last time, and the character never got improved in inj 1. Joker was always a beast in the corner and when it comes to damage, but his neutral was always so bad that it overrode that and made him the worst in the game. This time around, they mad his neutral worse AND his setplay worse... So yeah, we're gonna talk about his flaws, because we've already gone through a boatload of tech finds, but they don't add up to a viable character, and it's pretty clear there isn't much left to find.
 
I dont mean to be a dick here.. but instead of saying things like "our character got butchered and this thread will never see the light of day", lets be productive and level up with our character instead of whining for buffs.

I think a better way to go about these issues would be to collectively find and use all possible tech. Figure out optimal distances for gun use, MB rolls, parrying gaps in strings/pressure, optimal punishes with corner carry, etc. Its obvious Joker is an absolute monster in the corner and has the damage to take games, the problem is his neutral and opening up the opponent mid-screen.

So lets take our character to the highest level possible, hit up tournaments, show both NRS and the community what our character can truly do and let the results speak for themselves. If Joker still seems lackluster, cant get out of pools and is just getting washed.. people will see and he will get the love I personally agree that he needs.
We are in the exact same situation as inj1, but this time around, our tools are heavily nerfed. If we don't talk about these glaring problems, nothing will be done. I don't think anyone could stand it if our "buff" became a 1 frame parry :(
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I dont mean to be a dick here.. but instead of saying things like "our character got butchered and this thread will never see the light of day", lets be productive and level up with our character instead of whining for buffs.

I think a better way to go about these issues would be to collectively find and use all possible tech. Figure out optimal distances for gun use, MB rolls, parrying gaps in strings/pressure, optimal punishes with corner carry, etc. Its obvious Joker is an absolute monster in the corner and has the damage to take games, the problem is his neutral and opening up the opponent mid-screen.

So lets take our character to the highest level possible, hit up tournaments, show both NRS and the community what our character can truly do and let the results speak for themselves. If Joker still seems lackluster, cant get out of pools and is just getting washed.. people will see and he will get the love I personally agree that he needs.
This character always was easy to deal with.

99% of ppl never knew what to do against Joker and that continues in IJ2 as well. And joker loses matchups without the other person even knowing how to play against him, same as 1. Do you know how many top players I went back and forth with during IGAU1 that had no idea how Joker functioned?
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
@Qwark28

I knew I was missing someone, my bad lol @Maasik how long have you played as the Joker? And if so, at what level do you play him? Because to us joker players that committed to him the past 4 years, all the optimal shit we came up with is either nonexistent to his current move set or nerfed... try playing top or high level players that use legacy characters and know about jokers nerfs, it's an absolute nightmare.

The gave joker a slower parry, that yes does more damage, but is inconsistent.

And while I won't deny joker is a beast in the corner, it takes a lot of skill and execution for joker to do that beast shit in the corner, while characters like batman and black Adam (who has a lightning bomb similar to Jokers Teeth), can get easier pressure with optimal reward.

One well-timed pushblock and joker is back to square one where he struggles...
 

ThaShiveGeek

Est In Harvey 1989
Level up, and stop complaining? Lmfao. Man the character needs work. He needed work in part 1, and they've made him worse in part 2 without addressing the issues in part 1. Honestly though we knew he was going to be bad again when they presented him on stream, and didn't even care to make him look good lol. "Well he can do this, but I keep dropping the combo. I'm sure a Joker main will be able to get it right." Batman gets to keep his J2, but we lost ours. We lost our wake up. D2 isn't the same. I just wish one the NRS guys actually mained Joker. Let's be honest here... if one of them did he wouldn't be a shitter as a character. Luckily for me there's a ton of cool other characters for me to enjoy, but for my fellow Joker loyalist I feel bad for them. They didn't deserve this.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Level up, and stop complaining? Lmfao. Man the character needs work. He needed work in part 1, and they've made him worse in part 2 without addressing the issues in part 1. Honestly though we knew he was going to be bad again when they presented him on stream, and didn't even care to make him look good lol. "Well he can do this, but I keep dropping the combo. I'm sure a Joker main will be able to get it right." Batman gets to keep his J2, but we lost ours. We lost our wake up. D2 isn't the same. I just wish one the NRS guys actually mained Joker. Let's be honest here... if one of them did he wouldn't be a shitter as a character. Luckily for me there's a ton of cool other characters for me to enjoy, but for my fellow Joker loyalist I feel bad for them. They didn't deserve this.

I think I have said this possibly 3 or 4 times now but whoever tested and developed Joker either didn't really do it and said they did, got bodied by one of us or is an ABSOLUTE FUCKING MORON. Needed to be said again.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
But you guys can combo off super, who else has that?

:DOGE
His new super does decent damage with an opportunity to follow up on, which is nice, unless the opponent clashes, which leaves you with only one option... pull off a double b3 conversion and hope your controls weren't reversed when your opponent switched sides in the air because the timing is pretty tight.

The only real way you'll logically get your supers full effect outside of what I just stated is if your opponent already clashed, which is an extremely rare situation unless your opponent let's you build another super. Otherwise, after the supers over, we have no meter and you'll have at least a bar and a half, if not more and should we touch you with anything else other then a b3 or f3, the super damage and set up will be clashed and we will be back in neutral having exhausted all our meter and having to figure out how to deal with whoever we are fighting with no real tools at our disposal.
 

Jack White

The Clown Prince of Crime
hmmm... 1+1 = ?
Actually play the character before posting patronizing crap like this. The fast walk and jump speeds barely help his neutral at level 1, and level 2 and 3 aren't good enough to justify the set up. He can still easily be anti aired because how strong they are in this game even at the highest level. Don't believe me? Watch the demonstration 16Bit did on stream with Joker. Right when he said "Just TRY and anti air him at level 3", he was instantly anti aired. It's that easy. And since they nerfed his J2, it's even worse. It's clear no one at NRS actually plays the character if they thought his trait was any good.

Batman can bypass neutral with a push of a button, Superman gets high damage and armour breaking, and Black Adam gets free damage, but it's totally unreasonable to complain about Joker having a trait that requires 3 increasingly laggy activations that don't have as much utility as other characters can get with just one button press?
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Actually play the character before posting patronizing crap like this. The fast walk and jump speeds barely help his neutral at level 1, and level 2 and 3 aren't good enough to justify the set up. He can still easily be anti aired because how strong they are in this game even at the highest level. Don't believe me? Watch the demonstration 16Bit did on stream with Joker. Right when he said "Just TRY and anti air him at level 3", he was instantly anti aired. It's that easy. And since they nerfed his J2, it's even worse. It's clear no one at NRS actually plays the character if they thought his trait was any good.

Batman can bypass neutral with a push of a button, Superman gets high damage and armour breaking, and Black Adam gets free damage, but it's totally unreasonable to complain about Joker having a trait that requires 3 increasingly laggy activations that don't have as much utility as other characters can get with just one button press?
And the best part of this thread, we as a Joker community barely ask for much and always supportive of everyone else and we get overlooked by this community and if someone does look and read, all we get is patronizing responses.

We have narely asked for shit and now we want the communities support. Can we get it? Or will the joker community be overlooked another 4 years?

@CrimsonShadow @STORMS