Are we dismissing the added move slots too prematurely?

[PLAYING TO WIN]

"Damn it sucks to have to know the game to play it competitive they should just get rid of that."

99 variations/match ups for most traditional fighting games 30ish. go away.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Yo on the fly balance by the community? that could be cool actually.

Except for the part where it'd be complete and utter madness. You'd either have community votes determining balance(certainly a bad idea) or a small group of top players doing it(which would also be a bad idea). I'd much rather have sub zeros balance in someone other than 420noscopemiguel or Tom Brady's(assuming he's competing) hands.

 

[Cashual]

The only argument against this in my eyes is the challenge in balancing. However, is it really that much different than mkx? In essence mkx features 100 characters. Many of those variations feature significant changes from the base character, whether it be different frame data, totally different strings, totally different hitboxes due to weapons, different projectiles/properties, etc. In comparison, I think balancing injustice's 40ish characters with maybe a half dozen different specials will be attainable, though it will still require some fixes and patches to be sure.

Though MKX's balance is far from perfect, i think that overall by this stage in mkx, the game is pretty well balanced across 100 variations all things considered. Yes I know mileena is dumb and lackey is ass, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a ton of viable variations in the middle. All that is to say, that I think it is totally doable to balance this game for competitive play while taking into account the various ability load outs.

As for the logistics of making these abilities available in tournament setting, I see it being no different than how they handled the 8 (!!!!!) dlc characters, shinnok, brutalities, skins, etc. in mkx events. Yes there were hiccups at a few events but they got handled.

I also don't at all buy the argument that it'll take too long to pick a load out in a tournament. It's one or two more press "x" moments than we had in mkx. No big deal. If we are really worried about flow and timeliness in tournament we will self police the 30 second button (combo-IAfirelball-fireballRC-stance switch-interactable.......) checks and people could take all day deciding whether they want an air dash or an angled air projectile

 

[trufenix]

guys, we don't even know how many there are.

 

[Cashual]

I disagree, competitive should be as balanced as possible.

Yes, it should. But, you're presuming that balance wasn't considered when these moves were implemented. The fact that some abilities take both slots says a lot about their intent to balance these load outs. I still don't see how this system is functionally more work to balance than the 100 variations in mkx, which on balance (no pun intended), were pretty damn different from one another. Look at HQT vs. Warrior or maybe Hollywood vs. spec ops. Those are completely different characters.

There will undoubtedly be some examples of OP moves that will need to be adjusted, but that's ok. Worst case scenario, particular abilities could be banned pending hot fix or patch. Mystic ermac was legal even when the meter bug was discovered and people were warned that if they triggered that bug they'd forfeit the round I think.

So yeah, the abilities will add to the balance challenge, but despite all the flack and rhetoric about how incompetent NRS is, mkx turned out to be a fairly well balanced game considering 100 characters. To this day it's not unusual to see top 8's made up of 8 (at least) characters, or top 16's with only maybe 2 repeat characters (or at worst 2 sets of same characters).

The real question to me is how to handle the abilities in an online tournament setting. Will it just be use whatever you have personally unlocked on your profile? That could really favor luck and grinding (player a and player b are identical in skill, but due to RNG player a has the advantage because he came across ultra rare ability x and player b didn't). In the past this wouldn't have mattered, but with the improvement of the net code and the rising prestige of the online events like esl and kombat kup, this needs to be weighed.

 

[RoboCop]

I think any decisions made about the game are premature at this point, from the gear system to character animations. The game is still 4 months away (a third of a year!). There's nothing wrong with speculation, but saying "the graphics are bad" or "the gear system sucks" at this point just doesn't make any damn sense.

 

[IrishMantis]

I think any decisions made about the game are premature at this point, from the gear system to character animations. The game is still 4 months away (a third of a year!). There's nothing wrong with speculation, but saying "the graphics are bad" or "the gear system sucks" at this point just doesn't make any damn sense.

I covered all that OP

 

[Rathalos]

I don't like the idea of it.

That said, I think NRS should at the very least take in the small consideration, and an option to unlock all of the moves in tournament mode, along with a UI that lets you select them right after you select a character, similar to picking Ultras/Supers in older Capcom games.

If there is only like 5-10 for each character, and the UI is decent enough, it should clear up the logistical issues.
Well... should, but NRS players are notoriously slow and can't even figure out basic button checks.

 

[Lokheit]

I'm with IrishManits 100% here, the custom specials could be really interesting for the competitive scene (I'm hyped about that while I don't like at all the gear system modifying stats to give unfair advantages if your gear is better).

And it's not like the moves are crazy: air projectile for batman? diagonal air projectile as a completly different move taking another slot? That's not breaking the game, just customizating him to be a stronger zoner. The atrocitus move was slow and I thought they said it took 2 slots. Some of the moves even REPLACE an existing one (like the double batarang or the improved parry IIRC) and still take a slot.

IMO it would be easier to balance than the variations system even if the possible combinations increases because the moves aren't too powerful and if a combination of them becomes problematic they can be balanced so one of them takes 2 slots and can't be combined with the other. They could even end up switching vanilla and custom moves if they realize that a character is better balanced without one of its core moves as base or with one of the custom ones without taking a slot.

In fact recently I was thinking about how cool would be for a future MK to have a system where you pick 2 or 3 from a list of passives (either improving specific moves and effects or granting extra moves) as an evolution of the variation system and boom! they show this. I love it and I hope it becomes part of the competitive scene, this is much more interesting than the so promoted gear system (which at the end will be treated mostly as an appareance modifier to get cool or goofy versions of the characters).

EDIT: Of course I would like for all of those moves to be available in tournament mode without needing to unlock them.

EDIT2: Just learned from the ForeverKing's Batman thread that Batman's custom air projectile also replaced the sparkles. So yeah, I don't see the system introducing anything broke at all considering plenty of them replace vanilla moves, some of which have different roles that you could miss in some situations.

 

[Invincible Salads]

so basically if they make gear only cosmetic, then they will just have a moves tab to choose from in competative.....that migt not be so bad.

 

[trufenix]

uh the gear system is going to be huge for way more online warriors than gear hating tournament curmudgeons. This sort of shit has kept people playing horribly flimsy shooters for years.

 

[dribirut]

you guys are seriously underestimating nrs. They essentially balanced a 100+ character game with mkx. Easily the most balanced nrs game to date.. Let the special moves rock

 

[Perdition]

One of the worst developers when it comes to balancing has made balancing harder for themselves...if they allow gear in tournaments, I will bet Injustice 2 will have a short tournament life. NRS WILL mess this up for the first 6 months or so, these dudes have a track record of releasing obscenely broken games.

 

[Cashual]

uh the gear system is going to be huge for way more online warriors than gear hating tournament curmudgeons. This sort of shit has kept people playing horribly flimsy shooters for years.

Agreed, but I don't really see where anyone is arguing against that.

Leveling up, and gear hoarding are big motivators for certain people to continue to play a game, from fps to mmo's.

This thread is specifically about how to integrate these systems in a competitive setting. Or if they will be kept totally separate.

 

[SaSSolino]

Yes, it should. But, you're presuming that balance wasn't considered when these moves were implemented. The fact that some abilities take both slots says a lot about their intent to balance these load outs. I still don't see how this system is functionally more work to balance than the 100 variations in mkx, which on balance (no pun intended), were pretty damn different from one another. Look at HQT vs. Warrior or maybe Hollywood vs. spec ops. Those are completely different characters.

There will undoubtedly be some examples of OP moves that will need to be adjusted, but that's ok. Worst case scenario, particular abilities could be banned pending hot fix or patch. Mystic ermac was legal even when the meter bug was discovered and people were warned that if they triggered that bug they'd forfeit the round I think.

So yeah, the abilities will add to the balance challenge, but despite all the flack and rhetoric about how incompetent NRS is, mkx turned out to be a fairly well balanced game considering 100 characters. To this day it's not unusual to see top 8's made up of 8 (at least) characters, or top 16's with only maybe 2 repeat characters (or at worst 2 sets of same characters).

The real question to me is how to handle the abilities in an online tournament setting. Will it just be use whatever you have personally unlocked on your profile? That could really favor luck and grinding (player a and player b are identical in skill, but due to RNG player a has the advantage because he came across ultra rare ability x and player b didn't). In the past this wouldn't have mattered, but with the improvement of the net code and the rising prestige of the online events like esl and kombat kup, this needs to be weighed.

I ain't reading all that, but to answer you first phrase, as I've said in my prior replies: I know that they will try to balance the moves, but I doupt they'll be able to.

 

[Cashual]

One of the worst developers when it comes to balancing has made balancing harder for themselves...if they allow gear in tournaments, I will bet Injustice 2 will have a short tournament life. NRS WILL mess this up for the first 6 months or so, these dudes have a track record of releasing obscenely broken games.

Please explain to me how MKXL in its current state is worse in terms of balance than marvel, smash, Sfv.

Nrs has improved their balancing immensely. I'd even argue that all other things equal, mkx is more balanced than sfv. Season 2 sfv is a mess balance wise.

If you want to argue about mechanics and gameplay design decisions, you'd have a strong argument.

I think nrs games rely much too heavily on safe 50/50s and mixups in general to encourage offense. I also think chip damage is too powerful, and should maybe use a grey health mechanic with chip. I also think that jump attacks have too much priority and aa's are weak, leading to people being rewarded for jumping like maniacs. I also think pokes on block should leave players more negative. Mids shouldn't be low profiled, and hurtboxes in general need to be adjusted.

All of those are legitimate criticisms of mkx and nrs in general. However, it's a real reach trying to chide them for balance character to character in a genre where even the most beloved and respected games with less than half the characters have major balance issues across the cast.

 

[Cashual]

I ain't reading all that, but to answer you first phrase, as I've said in my prior replies: I know that they will try to balance the moves, but I doupt they'll be able to.

Cool, great talking with you.

It says a lot that you won't take the time to read something, yet you will take the time to hit reply and tell me you won't read it. Which of those is a bigger waste of time?

Typical though, people love to offer their opinion and have all the time in the world for that, but have no time to consider someone else's.

 

[IrishMantis]

Okay update

We're playing the beta now and we turned it to competitive mode with extra moves on

You cannot use extra moves with competitive on

 

[Cashual]

What do you mean you cannot use extra moves with gear on?

 

[IrishMantis]

What do you mean you cannot use extra moves with gear on?

Typo

 

[God Confirm]

If its accessible to everyone at all times, I think its fair game.

I think this is where it's at. People complaining about it being unbalanced, before they even know the impact of it, is silly. Custom characters is hype as fuck, if theres an outlier, NRS can fix it.

The problem is, is this even an OPTION? Can't unlock it all on every single tournament system

 

[JesterSMX]

After 6 months the only people that are gonna play i2 is tym. That's a generalization but my point is "competitive mode" is going to be the standard. Half the moves we've seen in gameplay reveals are useless if they don't apply to competitive mode.

 

[trufenix]

After 6 months the only people that are gonna play i2 is tym. That's a generalization but my point is "competitive mode" is going to be the standard. Half the moves we've seen in gameplay reveals are useless if they don't apply to competitive mode.

couldn't be more innaccurate.

 

[JesterSMX]

couldn't be more innaccurate.

How so? If I can't use the moves competitively I'm never gonna use them period.

 

[trufenix]

How so? If I can't use the moves competitively I'm never gonna use them period.

I don't care what you do, but I know I (and several others) will be collecting moves and customizing characters long after 6 months. The game has probably 12 dlc characters coming, it will be as big a seller this christmas as it will be in may.