Street Fighter V General Discussion

[Scott The Scot]

Anybody getting 80003 on the PS4 version? Can't sign in.

 

[Kroaken]

I'll say it for you. Juri is trash

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/sfv_season1/index.html?tc=ya0-trdj7abs7cey5eh5jyf4hqj577e58xg08xh778bpfhewdadkfifg79d3dbdyjkcljih5fheuavfbfhj2fefgjsgsda-bk5

1.)You underrate dhalsim heavily, imo.
2.)Alex is better than ibuki. More damage. Better/equally useful buttons. More reliable mixups.
3.) See below for gief.
4.) Rashid is up closer to guile I think.

It's not in order and Zangief is better than Juri because it matters when he hits you.

Same can be said about ibuki.

 

[CrazyFingers]

1.)You underrate dhalsim heavily, imo.
2.)Alex is better than ibuki. More damage. Better/equally useful buttons. More reliable mixups.
3.) See below for gief.
4.) Rashid is up closer to guile I think.


Same can be said about ibuki.

I've noticed that Dhalsim has been showing up lower on the tier list for a lot of these.

 

[Kroaken]

I've noticed that Dhalsim has been showing up lower on the tier list for a lot of these.

He requires a higher degree of execution than a lot of the cast.

 

[FL Rushdown]

He requires a higher degree of execution than a lot of the cast.

Has nothing to do with tier placement.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

If Ibuki is low tier I def need to learn her to add to the rest of my squad. Based Balrog and Bison

You're my favorite

 

[Kroaken]

Has nothing to do with tier placement.

Thank you rushdown. Obviously it doesn't win a tier list is done properly. But, my point is, that execution leads to under-representation. And that does affect where people see a character.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Has nothing to do with tier placement.

Actually in extreme cases it can (See Akira in Dead or Alive 5. On paper he should be a complete monster but the execution involved that you would need to get consistently to make him that strong is almost inhuman)

 

[Kroaken]

For reference, I thought I should probably throw together a list of my own. For the current state of the game:

SS: Chun-li
S: Ken, Ryu, Necalli, Cammy, Mika, Karin, Nash
A: Guile, Urien, Rashid, Sim, Alex, Balrog, Vega, Birdie
B: Laura, Gief, Juri, Ibuki, Bison, Fang

These are ordered left to right and as such I am open to discussion.

Note: as new tech is discovered, Urien could move above guile to lead the A tier. I severely underestimated him upon release.

 

[CrazyFingers]

For reference, I thought I should probably throw together a list of my own. For the current state of the game:

SS: Chun-li
S: Ken, Ryu, Necalli, Cammy, Mika, Karin, Nash
A: Guile, Urien, Rashid, Sim, Alex, Balrog, Vega, Birdie
B: Laura, Gief, Juri, Ibuki, Bison, Fang

These are ordered left to right and as such I am open to discussion.

Note: as new tech is discovered, Urien could move above guile to lead the A tier. I severely underestimated him upon release.

Everyone underestimated him but if MK has taught me anything it's that setplay is not something you should ignore especially when paired with actually good buttons.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Vega is more an A+ in the list above imo. I feel like he's in a weird place. I honestly feel like he's a Nash type character.. he lacks a couple major tools (no rev or AA) but has such solid options elsewhere it really evens it out. He's definitely NOT sitting at the top tier table though.

My list is different and it's labeled differently. I think the game, for all my bitching, doesn't have have an S or s+ tier.. except MAYBE Chun, she might qualify as S.

To me, S tier SS. Etc, represent a tier that's above great. A character being in/at SS means they are fundamentally broken and simply impossible to deal with fairly. Old Sorc. Quan and then Alien being examples of an S or higher tier. SFV is balanced enough that I feel like Chun may be at S, then the other established top tiers are A+.. except Ken. I don't know how to place him because I think he might be the most broken character in the game, EVEN THOUGH HE ISN'T THR BEST.

As listed earlier, Alex is 100% better than Ibuki. Way better. Alex shits on her. His high stun and damage make that fight a bitch for her.. she can't touch the air AT ALL, his buttons are better.. etc.

I might make a list later with some examples of why I feel a character falls where they do.

 

[Kroaken]

Actually in extreme cases it can (See Akira in Dead or Alive 5. On paper he should be a complete monster but the execution involved that you would need to get consistently to make him that strong is almost inhuman)

And I think that is the case here. Although to a lesser degree with this being sf5 I'm sure. Still, Sim has very powerful tools that require slightly more execution than the average character in this game.

 

[Kroaken]

Vega is more an A+ in the list above imo. I feel like he's in a weird place. I honestly feel like he's a Nash type character.. he lacks a couple major tools (no rev or AA) but has such solid options elsewhere it really evens it out. He's definitely NOT sitting at the top tier table though.

My list is different and it's labeled differently. I think the game, for all my bitching, doesn't have have an S or s+ tier.. except MAYBE Chun, she might qualify as S.

To me, S tier SS. Etc, represent a tier that's above great. A character being in/at SS means they are fundamentally broken and simply impossible to deal with fairly. Old Sorc. Quan and then Alien being examples of an S or higher tier. SFV is balanced enough that I feel like Chun may be at S, then the other established top tiers are A+.. except Ken. I don't know how to place him because I think he might be the most broken character in the game, EVEN THOUGH HE ISN'T THR BEST.

As listed earlier, Alex is 100% better than Ibuki. Way better. Alex shits on her. His high stun and damage make that fight a bitch for her.. she can't touch the air AT ALL, his buttons are better.. etc.

I might make a list later with some examples of why I feel a character falls where they do.

Semantics. I could have called it ab&c. The point is is there are not that many different tiers. Three at most with chun being slightly above the top.

 

[CrazyFingers]

God Urien looks disgusting to fight. When he kills you, he REALLY kills you. Like odds are you didn't have a chance to stop the death when he touched you. I think we'll be seeing a lot more tech on him and truly start tapping into his true potential. Gonne be a bumpy CRUSH! KILL!

 

[Kroaken]

Vega is more an A+ in the list above imo. I feel like he's in a weird place. I honestly feel like he's a Nash type character.. he lacks a couple major tools (no rev or AA) but has such solid options elsewhere it really evens it out. He's definitely NOT sitting at the top tier table though.

My list is different and it's labeled differently. I think the game, for all my bitching, doesn't have have an S or s+ tier.. except MAYBE Chun, she might qualify as S.

To me, S tier SS. Etc, represent a tier that's above great. A character being in/at SS means they are fundamentally broken and simply impossible to deal with fairly. Old Sorc. Quan and then Alien being examples of an S or higher tier. SFV is balanced enough that I feel like Chun may be at S, then the other established top tiers are A+.. except Ken. I don't know how to place him because I think he might be the most broken character in the game, EVEN THOUGH HE ISN'T THR BEST.

As listed earlier, Alex is 100% better than Ibuki. Way better. Alex shits on her. His high stun and damage make that fight a bitch for her.. she can't touch the air AT ALL, his buttons are better.. etc.

I might make a list later with some examples of why I feel a character falls where they do.

As far as Vega goes, I used to rank him higher... there are just a few things holding him back. Jumping as we've seen is extremely prevalent and Vega has subpar anti airs. He has no Invincible reversal and his V reversal leaves a lot to be desired. For this reason I think he struggles with pressure which is also very strong in 5. His V skill is arguably not great but it does have its uses. I think his Crush counter buttons are on the weaker side comparatively and his Target combos whiff on crouching opponents which also hurts his game. I like Vega and I do think he could potentially move up, but these are the reasons I have him where he is.

His walk speed is probably the only thing that sets him apart that I can think of at the moment.

 

[THTB]

God Urien looks disgusting to fight. When he kills you, he REALLY kills you. Like odds are you didn't have a chance to stop the death when he touched you. I think we'll be seeing a lot more tech on him and truly start tapping into his true potential. Gonne be a bumpy CRUSH! KILL!

Urien will probably shoot up once other regions get Urien players mixing up the way RB does. That character with VT is hilarious.

Also, Juri is pretty much bottom 3. Could rise, IMO, though, I don't see her passing the bottom half at all.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

As far as Vega goes, I used to rank him higher... there are just a few things holding him back. Jumping as we've seen is extremely prevalent and Vega has subpar anti airs. He has no Invincible reversal and his V reversal leaves a lot to be desired. For this reason I think he struggles with pressure which is also very strong in 5. His V skill is arguably not great but it does have its uses. I think his Crush counter buttons are on the weaker side comparatively and his Target combos whiff on crouching opponents which also hurts his game. I like Vega and I do think he could potentially move up, but these are the reasons I have him where he is.

His walk speed is probably the only thing that sets him apart that I can think of at the moment.

His TC whiffing isnt a huge deal when you can work around it. I fuck it up, but someone who isnt bad can still get very comparable damage regardless. His AAs suck, no arguing that, BUT a better Vega than me can convert when he DOES AA in to DIRTY damage, so while Id prefer a braindead AA, his AA's DO pack a serious punch. His Vtrigger is actually excellent for getting out of pressure and IMO what its made for. V Reversal is blah. I dont think his CC buttons are bad at all, minus the RH whiffing on crouchers. His CCs lead to MOAR DAMAGE too. St.rh works fine as a CC punish a blocked/whiffed DP, jump-ins, etc.

This is a rushdown game, outside edge cases thats how everyone plays for the most part and while Vega doesnt have a reversal to stop it, he does have a 3f normal thats *very* good and has a lot of options out of, so not only can he interrupt pressure with it he can follow the interrupt with damage.

His Vskill is meh, but its a nice non-metered followup for his TC and its upper body invincible. Does that matter? Not really. But its there. It SHOULD be easier to use vs fireballs IMO.

I still think Vega isn't designed to AA so much as A2A.. In that regard he has excellent jumping buttons and his air throw.

Vega has insane tools between stances, he absolutely has weaknesses like you said, but I feel like this is a case of those weaknesses keeping him from the Ryu/Ken table not the *really good* table. That is close to it. Vega is under-represented so I dont have that many pros to reference, but though he's lacking in AA's and defense he makes up for it in options and damage. His ability to play lame vs play rushdown vs play space control and such is worth its weight in gold and his normal ranges even outside claw are killer. He has a command grab too.. Oh, and he has actual, functional setups you can use vs real players in real situations.. His ex wall bounce stuff off a KD in the corner is a true left/right guess that leads to absolutely ridiculous damage for a bar and very solid/respectable damage without.. The meaty CA crossup is very real as well and outside of reversalling through it, its a guess - you dont see it often because Vega tends to use a lot of meter and he can confirm in to CA off so much, but its still there and its quite real. Ex wall in to air hit in to vtrigger in to ex wall is a legit guess again (2bar so its not going to lead to the same damage unless you spend a third and in that case you could have just CA'd.. ).. and so on.


He is WAY more than his walk speed.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

God Urien looks disgusting to fight. When he kills you, he REALLY kills you. Like odds are you didn't have a chance to stop the death when he touched you. I think we'll be seeing a lot more tech on him and truly start tapping into his true potential. Gonna be a bumpy CRUSH! KILL!

Yeah.. I will admit that I thought Urien was pretty 'bleh' when he first dropped, but I changed my mind relatively quickly. I think time will see him really become a force. He's not gimmicky and when he has VT he is terrifying. Even when he doesn't he has solid normals and a good neutral.

I feel like the 3f jab thing is becoming less and less of a 'huge' tool. As pressure and meaties evolve and such, its way less useful than it used to be. Not to say its still not super important to have, but at release it was held up alongside a true reversal in terms of importance.

I dont mean to rant about Ibuki here and start that shit again, but Urien's VT is what hers should be/have been. His is *always* useful in some way. On hit, on block, literally just thrown out raw.. It makes his damn throws do more in almost any situation (Ibuki's can too, but its *way* more difficult to set it up). When Urien has VT the entire match dynamic changes. Obviously Ibuki's bombs shouldn't be a mirrior (SEE WHAT I DID THERE? THATS A JOKE THAT I MADE JUST NOW LOOK AT IT< LOOOOOOOK AT ITTTTTTTT) image of Uriens VT, but the general functionality and such should be a lot closer to what he is able to do.

I want to learn to play Urien.

'Of course I need motivation to get back in to SFV at all. I just play friggen Injustice lately.

 

[Kroaken]

His TC whiffing isnt a huge deal when you can work around it. I fuck it up, but someone who isnt bad can still get very comparable damage regardless. His AAs suck, no arguing that, BUT a better Vega than me can convert when he DOES AA in to DIRTY damage, so while Id prefer a braindead AA, his AA's DO pack a serious punch. His Vtrigger is actually excellent for getting out of pressure and IMO what its made for. V Reversal is blah. I dont think his CC buttons are bad at all, minus the RH whiffing on crouchers. His CCs lead to MOAR DAMAGE too. St.rh works fine as a CC punish a blocked/whiffed DP, jump-ins, etc.

This is a rushdown game, outside edge cases thats how everyone plays for the most part and while Vega doesnt have a reversal to stop it, he does have a 3f normal thats *very* good and has a lot of options out of, so not only can he interrupt pressure with it he can follow the interrupt with damage.

His Vskill is meh, but its a nice non-metered followup for his TC and its upper body invincible. Does that matter? Not really. But its there. It SHOULD be easier to use vs fireballs IMO.

I still think Vega isn't designed to AA so much as A2A.. In that regard he has excellent jumping buttons and his air throw.

Vega has insane tools between stances, he absolutely has weaknesses like you said, but I feel like this is a case of those weaknesses keeping him from the Ryu/Ken table not the *really good* table. That is close to it. Vega is under-represented so I dont have that many pros to reference, but though he's lacking in AA's and defense he makes up for it in options and damage. His ability to play lame vs play rushdown vs play space control and such is worth its weight in gold and his normal ranges even outside claw are killer. He has a command grab too.. Oh, and he has actual, functional setups you can use vs real players in real situations.. His ex wall bounce stuff off a KD in the corner is a true left/right guess that leads to absolutely ridiculous damage for a bar and very solid/respectable damage without.. The meaty CA crossup is very real as well and outside of reversalling through it, its a guess - you dont see it often because Vega tends to use a lot of meter and he can confirm in to CA off so much, but its still there and its quite real. Ex wall in to air hit in to vtrigger in to ex wall is a legit guess again (2bar so its not going to lead to the same damage unless you spend a third and in that case you could have just CA'd.. ).. and so on.


He is WAY more than his walk speed.

Not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here. The main argument I read was damage and dirt. Both of which the characters ahead of him have without having to deal with the weaknesses that I listed.

He is at the really good table. That's what I think of when I say A tier. He's not quite at the top with ryu, ken, etc. I've got him listed in the tier right below.

That said, could he be moved up one or two? Possibly. I can see it. Though these are listed left to right, I don't think there's a huge disparity between them. I can't stress enough how close it is.

 

[FL Rushdown]

And I think that is the case here. Although to a lesser degree with this being sf5 I'm sure. Still, Sim has very powerful tools that require slightly more execution than the average character in this game.

Sim has not one single tool that's harder to execute than chun, karin, or cammys and they're all too tier. Instant air tele/gale/drill are all as easy or easier than the other instant airs in this game because of the more lenient height restrictions.

Also I do still say that in its purest form a tier list examines characters in a vacuum. Player skill is irrelevant and it's assumed that the player can utilize all of the characters tools, otherwise what's the point.

 

[buyacushun]

Lol a duel it is. I'm on pc anyway. Fang is hella cool for what it's worth. And idk... I love when people shit on my char.

For reference, I thought I should probably throw together a list of my own. For the current state of the game:

SS: Chun-li
S: Ken, Ryu, Necalli, Cammy, Mika, Karin, Nash
A: Guile, Urien, Rashid, Sim, Alex, Balrog, Vega, Birdie
B: Laura, Gief, Juri, Ibuki, Bison, Fang

These are ordered left to right and as such I am open to discussion.

Note: as new tech is discovered, Urien could move above guile to lead the A tier. I severely underestimated him upon release.

You really bout to my boy F.A.N.G. dead last?

I'm on PS4, CFN: CM_BUYACUSHUN. I have steam though: COLOR MONEY.

Everyone underestimated him but if MK has taught me anything it's that setplay is not something you should ignore especially when paired with actually good buttons.

I never underestimated Urien. I actually convinced RB to pick him up. Told him it's basically destiny he puts that character on the map. Like the two crossed paths in a past life.

 

[Kroaken]

You really bout to my boy F.A.N.G. dead last?

I'm on PS4, CFN: CM_BUYACUSHUN. I have steam though: COLOR MONEY.

I never underestimated Urien. I actually convinced RB to pick him up. Told him it's basically destiny he puts that character on the map. Like the two crossed paths in a past life.

Where would you put fang? And I'd love to have some sets. I'll do my best to make em competitive lol. ZacATG is my steam. We'll have to do it soon. Won't have internet much longer real life lol

 

[Kroaken]

Sim has not one single tool that's harder to execute than chun, karin, or cammys and they're all too tier. Instant air tele/gale/drill are all as easy or easier than the other instant airs in this game because of the more lenient height restrictions.

Also I do still say that in its purest form a tier list examines characters in a vacuum. Player skill is irrelevant and it's assumed that the player can utilize all of the characters tools, otherwise what's the point.

Nobody is arguing that. We're saying that execution keeps some players from playing those characters. Therefore they are under represented. Therefore it can skew some players view of how strong or weak a character is. That is all. You are absolutely right in saying that a tier list is made up with the assumption of top player skill. In which case I believed dhalsim to be very strong.

 

[B. Shazzy]

This is UltraDavids tier list seen as people have a hard time believing anything I say

Spoiler: UltraDavid Tierlist

ultra david also said any character can make top 8 here

i agree nash isnt top 5 and will get buffs

tier 3 and lower are fine. there's no way guile is a better character than nash and Urien or even in the same class as necalli, karin, ken, ryu but ultra david seems to have a hard on for guile based of his commentary. those 4 characters arent outclassed by mika either.

7/10 tier list

 

[Kroaken]

ultra david also said any character can make top 8 here

i agree nash isnt top 5 and will get buffs

tier 3 and lower are fine. there's no way guile is a better character than nash and Urien or even in the same class as necalli, karin, ken, ryu but ultra david seems to have a hard on for guile based of his commentary. those 4 characters arent outclassed by mika either.

7/10 tier list

Rate mine poppa shazz lol