Street Fighter V General Discussion

[B. Shazzy]

I don't know of any players that say Guile v Rashid is 5-5. Maybe they have said that, but it's not something I've heard. I feel like Rashid gets pushed around in the MU. He has a hard time getting in when he's behind. Although his mobility is good, Guile's ability to drastically change the speed of his booms makes it difficult to use his v-skill safely.

No lead is safe for Rashid because Guile gets in for free. Slow booms, v-skill booms and v-trigger are difficult for rashid to deal with.

Up close, Rashid does have a 3 frame normal, so he can put Guile in some uncomfortable frame traps and tick throw situations. However, once Rashid's pressure goes to -2, which it will eventually, Guile gets his turn and it can be quite oppressive for Rashid. He can stay safe and push back with booms or go in for throws. From throw distance all the way to full screen, Guile seems to have the clear advantage. I also feel like Guile can dominate the air with better aa's and an air throw that can switch sides. I just don't see any way that it's not in Guile's favor.

There are several ways for Rashid to get in on booms, he beats Guile in footsies, his pressure is better, his buttons are better he does more damage, he has just as much vtrigger potential as Guile while being able to get it twice. Guile getting in on Rashid shouldnt matter what is he going to do nothing combos if he walks forward, no tick throws, an unsafe unancelllable low, who cares about his pressure.

The only reason good Guile players go in is to fight for positioning to stay away from the corner and try to push you the other way. The only place Guile is strong is mid to long range and that only does so much. Nobody has ever lost becuase of "a Guile round" where zoning is just impossible to navigate or they guessed wrong everytime like when you lose a "mika round".

Rashid has the tools to get in and describing vague situations like when Guile has the life lead doesnt make sense. It's hard for Guile when he's cornered and Rashid has the lifelead too.The question is why is how did Rashid get there in the first place hopping around like a bunny or having zero neutral game which arent the character's problem at all. If anything Guile would lose this matchup if he didn't have a reversal that's how much he doesn't beat Rashid.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Lionbae i wasnt gonna do it you told me to be nice to the scrubs but they need to put some respek on my name first

Spoiler: actual footage of me bodying johnnybumcage's gief never before seen

ya but im supposed to listen to other giefs that arent infexious with a straight face when they all play like that LUL ^

I lol'd so you win. 5-5.

 

[FL Rushdown]

There are several ways for Rashid to get in on booms, he beats Guile in footsies, his pressure is better, his buttons are better he does more damage, he has just as much vtrigger potential as Guile while being able to get it twice. Guile getting in on Rashid shouldnt matter what is he going to do nothing combos if he walks forward, no tick throws, an unsafe unancelllable low, who cares about his pressure.

The only reason good Guile players go in is to fight for positioning to stay away from the corner and try to push you the other way. The only place Guile is strong is mid to long range and that only does so much. Nobody has ever lost becuase of "a Guile round" where zoning is just impossible to navigate or they guessed wrong everytime like when you lose a "mika round".

Rashid has the tools to get in and describing vague situations like when Guile has the life lead doesnt make sense. It's hard for Guile when he's cornered and Rashid has the lifelead too.The question is why is how did Rashid get there in the first place hopping around like a bunny or having zero neutral game which arent the character's problem at all. If anything Guile would lose this matchup if he didn't have a reversal that's how much he doesn't beat Rashid.

Pretty sure that every round a Mika loses vs a guile is a "guile round". Sometimes she doesn't get in, it's pretty rare for a Mika to get in multiple times and lose.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Pretty sure that every round a Mika loses vs a guile is a "guile round". Sometimes she doesn't get in, it's pretty rare for a Mika to get in multiple times and lose.

guile players arent perfecting people by keeping them out and again if someone lost a lot of life its because they were read and antiaired multiple times while consistently losing the ground game over the course of the whole round. not stunned after a couple guesess in a vortex after an errant jump or dash in by mika ending the round in 10 seconds.


you cant compare their work like at all nobody has ever said "well i got guiled" they say this is looking lik Guile in past games aka when he had amazing zoning

 

[Rip Torn]

There are several ways for Rashid to get in on booms, he beats Guile in footsies, his pressure is better, his buttons are better he does more damage, he has just as much vtrigger potential as Guile while being able to get it twice. Guile getting in on Rashid shouldnt matter what is he going to do nothing combos if he walks forward, no tick throws, an unsafe unancelllable low, who cares about his pressure.

The only reason good Guile players go in is to fight for positioning to stay away from the corner and try to push you the other way. The only place Guile is strong is mid to long range and that only does so much. Nobody has ever lost becuase of "a Guile round" where zoning is just impossible to navigate or they guessed wrong everytime like when you lose a "mika round".

Rashid has the tools to get in and describing vague situations like when Guile has the life lead doesnt make sense. It's hard for Guile when he's cornered and Rashid has the lifelead too.The question is why is how did Rashid get there in the first place hopping around like a bunny or having zero neutral game which arent the character's problem at all. If anything Guile would lose this matchup if he didn't have a reversal that's how much he doesn't beat Rashid.

I wasn't being vague. I'm just discussing the various aspects of any matchup. Who wins up close, mid-screen and fullscreen? Who can keep a life lead? Who has better comeback potential? Who has better zoning? Who has better footsies? Better pressure? Those are standard topics to discussing a MU.

I strongly disagree that Rashid has the tools to get in on Guile though. Look at this set. How many times did Rashid use v-skill to get in on Guile? Zero. That's how unreliable it is. If it was Ryu, he'd roll under 90% of the midscreen fireballs for a punish. He can't do that against Guile though. The booms have way too much speed variance. Couple that with Guile's recovery and it probably wouldn't even hit. He is forced to jump in on a read. While the reward can be good if it hits, it's just not a great gameplan.

 

[B. Shazzy]

I wasn't being vague. I'm just discussing the various aspects of any matchup. Who wins up close, mid-screen and fullscreen? Who can keep a life lead? Who has better comeback potential? Who has better zoning? Who has better footsies? Better pressure? Those are standard topics to discussing a MU.

I strongly disagree that Rashid has the tools to get in on Guile though. Look at this set. How many times did Rashid use v-skill to get in on Guile? Zero. That's how unreliable it is. If it was Ryu, he'd roll under 90% of the midscreen fireballs for a punish. He can't do that against Guile though. The booms have way too much speed variance. Couple that with Guile's recovery and it probably wouldn't even hit. He is forced to jump in on a read. While the reward can be good if it hits, it's just not a great gameplan.

1Jumping (stuffed guile's aas)
1. Running
3.Air vskill
4.Ex whirlwhind canceled into vskill
5.Divekick
6. v reversal

All things I saw orange man use to get in and even trade with Flashkick using divekick. What else do you want, a teleport?

He didn't lose because "Guile's oppressive v-skill pressure" which I saw Du use maybe 2 times to get out of the corner and NOT "get in for free". He lost because he ate every DP, literally never antiaired or baited DU and was dp baited every time he was just flat outplayed in general.

You realize that matchups Guile loses he also throws booms and characters have to risk jumping in too right? That's barely a talking point. Throwing a boom from jump in range vs the chance of being antiaired is not in Guile's favor. He would have to antiair you at least 3 times with flashkick that doesnt trade with rashi'ds jump normals to match the damage of 1 jump in.


Nothing you said about the matchup actually happened either from the free slow boom walk ins (why would guile do this against Rashid) to oppressive pressure ( jab jab boom is not scary) to the vtrigger (never got to activate because he spent it all not being pressured to death in the corner and Rashid got free mixups for his everytime).

 

[Rip Torn]

1Jumping (stuffed guile's aas)
1. Running
3.Air vskill
4.Ex whirlwhind canceled into vskill
5.Divekick
6. v reversal

All things I saw orange man use to get in and even trade with Flashkick using divekick. What else do you want, a teleport?

He didn't lose because "Guile's oppressive v-skill pressure" which I saw Du use maybe 2 times to get out of the corner and NOT "get in for free". He lost because he ate every DP, literally never antiaired or baited DU and was dp baited every time he was just flat outplayed in general.

You realize that matchups Guile loses he also throws booms and characters have to risk jumping in too right? That's barely a talking point. Throwing a boom from jump in range vs the chance of being antiaired is not in Guile's favor. He would have to antiair you at least 3 times with flashkick that doesnt trade with rashi'ds jump normals to match the damage of 1 jump in.


Nothing you said about the matchup actually happened either from the free slow boom walk ins (why would guile do this against Rashid) to oppressive pressure ( jab jab boom is not scary) to the vtrigger (never got to activate because he spent it all not being pressured to death in the corner and Rashid got free mixups for his everytime).

The point of the video was to show how Rashid doesn't have any great way of getting in. I don't think he needs a teleport but some earlier projectile invincibility on the v-skill roll would help.

3:00 - Du uses a slow v-skill boom to get in because he's down on health
3:19 - Orangeman uses v-reversal to "get in" but get's put in a mixup instead
5:42 - Ex whirlwind shot into roll to get in - punished

Du played the matchup correctly. Get the life lead then zone. Once Rashid starts to respect anti airs - go in. Use v-reversals and ex flashkick to stop ex whirwind shot pressure. There wasn't really any need for him to use slow booms to get in and pressure. He only did that if he really needed to because he was losing and needed to make something happen. Slow boom pressure is more Chris G's style anyway.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Make a quick tier list for us. I'm curious who you have below ibuki.

This is UltraDavids tier list seen as people have a hard time believing anything I say

Spoiler: UltraDavid Tierlist

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Eh. I don't think any character in this game is bad enough that you can blame the character over the player unless that player is in like the 99.9th percentile. Honestly if you're a solid enough player you can be diamond with any character in this game.

I agree you should not blame your character if you are below diamond, as you should be able to get there by just improving your fundamentals.

However, I don't think the difficulty is the same. Some characters have pretty stupid options that don't require much thought, and you can go along way abusing those options, without really learning how to play.

While a lot of platinum and higher players are solid, it's not unusual at all to run into moronic Kens that keep jumping and mixing up air tatsu and normal jump ins. Or Ryus that mixup dash up grab/button with jump light kick. Or mikas that mix up body splash with regular jump in and then randomly throw in drop kicks/cr hp. Quite a few of these players have decent execution / setups but have no concept of footsies or reading their opponents and just randomly mixup these offensive options.

Some of the lower tiered characters don't have the same stupid stuff, and when a player gets to a higher rank it usually means they are decent.

 

[FL Rushdown]

This is UltraDavids tier list seen as people have a hard time believing anything I say

Spoiler: UltraDavid Tierlist

I disagree with that tier list in a lot of ways Myles. Seems pretty suspect to put guile on the same level as ryu/Karin/necalli/ken. Also take issue with rashido being on the same level as Urien and nash. Also don't think there's anyway that ibuki is as complete of a character as rog.

 

[buyacushun]

This is UltraDavids tier list seen as people have a hard time believing anything I say

Spoiler: UltraDavid Tierlist

What are you and UD supposedly agreeing on? And post a source next time.

 

[B. Shazzy]

The point of the video was to show how Rashid doesn't have any great way of getting in. I don't think he needs a teleport but some earlier projectile invincibility on the v-skill roll would help.

3:00 - Du uses a slow v-skill boom to get in because he's down on health
3:19 - Orangeman uses v-reversal to "get in" but get's put in a mixup instead
5:42 - Ex whirlwind shot into roll to get in - punished

Du played the matchup correctly. Get the life lead then zone. Once Rashid starts to respect anti airs - go in. Use v-reversals and ex flashkick to stop ex whirwind shot pressure. There wasn't really any need for him to use slow booms to get in and pressure. He only did that if he really needed to because he was losing and needed to make something happen. Slow boom pressure is more Chris G's style anyway.

ok but you literally said rashid loses the matchup because this and that when nome of it is reflective in this set and all this shows is that du outplaying some online Rashid.

everyone has to take a risk to get in on guile its the nature of the character. rashid has more than enough ways to get in and even bait antiairs. Guile has to hit rashid a thousand times with pokes and booms and aas rashid just gets in once pushes you to the corner baits something and its over. the characters tools deal can deal with each other fine whether the players can do stuff like actually antiair guile players or bait a dp, or a v reversal, or not get baited one time comes down decision making aka outplaying and isnt a character problem

 

[FL Rushdown]

ok but you literally said rashid loses the matchup because this and that when nome of it is reflective in this set and all this shows is that du outplaying some online Rashid.

everyone has to take a risk to get in on guile its the nature of the character. rashid has more than enough ways to get in and even bait antiairs. Guile has to hit rashid a thousand times with pokes and booms and aas rashid just gets in once pushes you to the corner baits something and its over. the characters tools deal can deal with each other fine whether the players can do stuff like actually antiair guile players or bait a dp, or a v reversal, or not get baited one time comes down decision making aka outplaying and isnt a character problem

What goes around comes around I guess. I seem to remember you posting random du online matches to prove a matchup point.

 

[B. Shazzy]

What goes around comes around I guess. I seem to remember you posting random du online matches to prove a matchup point.

except my point was actually proven by the alex video since i described the matchup perfectly? riptorn just posted a bideo of america's best player beat a rashid and calls it 6-4 with imaginary reasons. do you read anything in this thread or just get your rocks off trying to trip people up or something?

go back in your cupboard and try again tomorrow

 

[CrazyFingers]

except my point was actually proven by the alex video since i described the matchup perfectly? riptorn just posted a bideo of america's best player beat a rashid and calls it 6-4 with imaginary reasons. do you read anything in this thread or just get your rocks off trying to trip people up or something?

go back in your cupboard and try again tomorrow

Shazzy when I get this game you wanna help me git gud friend?

 

[@MylesWright_]

I disagree with that tier list in a lot of ways Myles. Seems pretty suspect to put guile on the same level as ryu/Karin/necalli/ken. Also take issue with rashido being on the same level as Urien and nash. Also don't think there's anyway that ibuki is as complete of a character as rog.

I posted it because of the bottom half of the tier list which is accurate. I have no clue what is going on at the top

What are you and UD supposedly agreeing on? And post a source next time.

Me and esteemed FGC commentator UltraDavid agree on Juri being trash and Ibuki being nowhere near as bad as people think in this thread

Here's your source: https://twitter.com/ultradavid/status/800798001820147712

 

[B. Shazzy]

Shazzy when I get this game you wanna help me git gud friend?

oh sorry bro im busy that day lul but fl bumdown has this game all figured out down to matchups of character he has no exp go he'll get you to super silver in no time so gdlk ok

 

[FL Rushdown]

oh sorry bro im busy that day lul but fl bumdown has this game all figured out down to matchups of character he has no exp go he'll get you to super silver in no time so gdlk ok

Well I mean I don't have 10k plus games played like you, but with only 1/10th of the time invested in I've been able to win about 35% of the games we've played. I'll take it.

 

[The Slaj Jazz]

If Ibuki is low tier I def need to learn her to add to the rest of my squad. Based Balrog and Bison

 

[buyacushun]

I posted it because of the bottom half of the tier list which is accurate. I have no clue what is going on at the top



Me and esteemed FGC commentator UltraDavid agree on Juri being trash and Ibuki being nowhere near as bad as people think in this thread

Here's your source: https://twitter.com/ultradavid/status/800798001820147712

Juri being in the lowest tier in SFV doesn't mean UD thinks Juri is trash. And it kind of throws off you using UD as some validity check when you start disagreeing with parts of his tier list. With the time I've put in Juri I wouldn't put her past that A/Birdie tier. But I wouldn't say she's trash.

 

[Kroaken]

This is UltraDavids tier list seen as people have a hard time believing anything I say

Spoiler: UltraDavid Tierlist

No offense to David. I think he's a cool guy and one of my favorite commentators. But that list is off compared to mine. More importantly, many if not most of the pro's lists (people who are actually competing) differ a great deal.

Secondly... sweet. Don't think I asked for Davids tier list. Cool dodge though. Again... looking for your tier list.

 

[JJvercetti]

No offense to David. I think he's a cool guy and one of my favorite commentators. But that list is off compared to mine. More importantly, many if not most of the pro's lists (people who are actually competing) differ a great deal.

Secondly... sweet. Don't think I asked for Davids tier list. Cool dodge though. Again... looking for your tier list.

The tier lists in general are always different from person to person, its when you get them together to hash out the matchup and placements etc you will see the full list for example the ST tier list.

EDIT: Classic MKs is a more better example.

 

[@MylesWright_]

I wouldn't say she's trash.

I'll say it for you. Juri is trash

No offense to David. I think he's a cool guy and one of my favorite commentators. But that list is off compared to mine. More importantly, many if not most of the pro's lists (people who are actually competing) differ a great deal.

Secondly... sweet. Don't think I asked for Davids tier list. Cool dodge though. Again... looking for your tier list.

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/sfv_season1/index.html?tc=ya0-trdj7abs7cey5eh5jyf4hqj577e58xg08xh778bpfhewdadkfifg79d3dbdyjkcljih5fheuavfbfhj2fefgjsgsda-bk5

 

[CrazyFingers]

I'll say it for you. Juri is trash



http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/sfv_season1/index.html?tc=ya0-trdj7abs7cey5eh5jyf4hqj577e58xg08xh778bpfhewdadkfifg79d3dbdyjkcljih5fheuavfbfhj2fefgjsgsda-bk5

So wait does the left to right ordering actually matter in this case? If so, why do you say Gief is weaker than Juri if you don't mind me asking.

 

[@MylesWright_]

So wait does the left to right ordering actually matter in this case? If so, why do you say Gief is weaker than Juri if you don't mind me asking.

It's not in order and Zangief is better than Juri because it matters when he hits you.