Question - Jason Voorhees Why Does Jason Need Nerfs?

[CrazyFingers]

I

Raiden and Quan... Of course you'd pick the two characters who have like 5 frame NJPs

I guess we're just agreeing to disagreeing then. I absolutely believe it needs at least 10 more frames. It will still be the fastest recovering grab in the game, but it won't be as unforgiving. I mean Jason can literally use it move across the screen because of how fast the move recovers, same with b1

I can agree to disagree. Glad you can too.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Also! B1 tick throw is good but I feel like people are up playing it a ton. We are talking about a character that wants to be in your face doing a small amount of meter (this being without setup or without being almost dead) throwing you full screen or out of the corner unless you burn a bar. Also can be armored out of (again, unless he gets a buff on and the damage buff has long recovery, as it should) and, as I said, can be NJP'd. It's strong but don't act like it's some absurd thing that needs to be dealt with. We have bigger fish to fry.

are we talkning about tickthrows and NJP. if so, all of them are capable of being NJP'd with any character or Crossed over no matter who you are. its honestly not hard at all. with some characters the timing of the NJP like Cyrax has one of the slowest startups and timing when it comes to making it hit OH. it still is possible , but just requires a longer time in Lab.

im just assuming thats whats being talked about. trust me the tick throws can be NJPed.

and for the sake of argument, no matter who the fuck i play. it does not make a flying fuck of a difference if sonic does a B1 tick throw on me vs the worst player imaginable, they both link the same. and no matter is behing the controller the timing to NJP it is the same. and i have Zero problems doing it when im Practiced fully on the matchup.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

are we talkning about tickthrows and NJP. if so, all of them are capable of being NJP'd with any character or Crossed over no matter who you are. its honestly not hard at all. with some characters the timing of the NJP like Cyrax has one of the slowest startups and timing when it comes to making it hit OH. it still is possible , but just requires a longer time in Lab.

im just assuming thats whats being talked about. trust me the tick throws can be NJPed.

and for the sake of argument, no matter who the fuck i play. it does not make a flying fuck of a difference if sonic does a B1 tick throw on me vs the worst player imaginable, they both link the same. and no matter is behing the controller the timing to NJP it is the same. and i have Zero problems doing it when im Practiced fully on the matchup.

i think commando can actually catch some NJP's with his EX grabs, i know some of them catch it. but im unsure of inputs because i am not a commando main or even remotely use that variation. but i do play someone who uses him very well:

@Apex Kano can you tell me which tick throws grab NJP's with KAno Cammando and which ones don't and which ones are harder to jump and which ones are easiest? thanks doggie.

 

[16 Bit]

Tho F/T can't punish with NJP because of the wind up but I'm almost positive everyone else can...tho F/T has good ways to deal with it like other than njp

The F/T without Ferra NJP can punish it.

I love the progression of talking points on TYM.

"B+1~grab is plus on whiff"

"Ok maybe not plus but it's safe"

"Well...you can punish but it's extremely difficult"


"d+1 is a block infinite"

"Well against certain characters."

"Ok but he can get a few in a row...in the corner."

 

[CrazyFingers]

The F/T without Ferra NJP can punish it.

I love the progression of talking points on TYM.

"B+1~grab is plus on whiff"

"Ok maybe not plus but it's safe"

"Well...you can punish but it's extremely difficult"


"d+1 is a block infinite"

"Well against certain characters."

"Ok but he can get a few in a row...in the corner."

Funny how TYM works huh?

 

[MadeOfMetal]

yes its a read, but its possible with practice, you can build the muscle memory to punish with NJP. not saying what you said is wrong, but to be fair i asked a few players and there point of view is that it is consistently capable of punishing. but it can be tricky/hard.

So where i stand, if there is an option to punish its not something that needs a nerf. i stand by my statement that D1 needs to be -4 on block and Jason is fair. Strong top tier but fair. Some need to realize that being Strong is not Broke. he is a very good character and I have always wanted him to get better, even though im not a main with him. I hated how he sucked in the beginning, and it seems When a character starts getting the capability to Place Top8's they immediately demand nerfs. I think we should let him ride and if things where to change it should be very very small and careful not to ruin a great character that could possibly allow for some very cool and Hype Majors.

im so sick of seeing the same Characters in EvO and ESL. lets get some diversity and quit micro managing what characters stay top and what characters fall. We know after patch there will be new faces in S tier in many players Tier lists. because that fighting games. Everyone has a Top middle and Bottom.

 

[omooba]

It doesn't need longer recovery. I usually don't use this when it comes to balance but get good. You read the grab and jump it, NJP to punish it. If you don't punish it it's your fault. D1 should be -5 or -4 and that's it. Stop complaining about the command grab recovery (not just you I mean everyone who is complaining about it, not targeting you, everyone needs to stop complaining about it.) the character is fine, barely anyone plays against Jason so they sometimes don't know what to do against him and therefore he looks broken as fuck. Lab the matchup or you're going to get blown up by his dirt.

almighty crazyfingers please show me a video of you using ferra/torr(vicious or ruthless) to punish b1 into dbf2

 

[CrazyFingers]

almighty crazyfingers please show me a video of you using ferra/torr(vicious or ruthless) to punish b1 into dbf2

Switch to Lacky

 

[MadeOfMetal]

almighty crazyfingers please show me a video of you using ferra/torr(vicious or ruthless) to punish b1 into dbf2

does it matter who its against? in theroy would it matter since the timing window is the same no matter who is behind the controller. Even though we know that Mad pressure is a factor, just for the sake of argument if its possible. cuz i think what he is saying is its possible and some make it sound like its not?

 

[omooba]

"d+1 is a block infinite"

"Well against certain characters."

"Ok but he can get a few in a row...in the corner."

sounds like your saying he's fine being able to do this even if it's limited

Switch to Lacky

okay so what you're telling me is that him having a command grab that if you don't armor or INSTANT air njp (that doesn't work for everyone) will be safe and even be able to anti air you after when everyone else's is extremely punishable on whiff is fine?... well that's your opinion and i respect it but don't come in here telling me to git gud like that shit isn't nasty
edit: like that shit isn't fucking ridiculous

 

[MadeOfMetal]

sounds like your saying he's fine being able to do this even if it's limited

okay so what you're telling me is that him having a command grab that if you don't armor or INSTANT air njp (that doesn't work for everyone) will be safe and even be able to anti air you after when everyone else's is extremely punishable on whiff is fine?... well that's your opinion and i respect it but don't come in here telling me to git gud like that shit isn't nasty
edit: like that shit isn't fucking ridiculous

i think this went to far, i respect both views, i think what he was saying is nothing is deserving of a nerf. if that can be agreed on.

 

[CrazyFingers]

sounds like your saying he's fine being able to do this even if it's limited

okay so what you're telling me is that him having a command grab that if you don't armor or INSTANT air njp (that doesn't work for everyone) will be safe and even be able to anti air you after when everyone else's is extremely punishable on whiff is fine?... well that's your opinion and i respect it but don't come in here telling me to git gud like that shit isn't nasty
edit: like that shit isn't fucking ridiculous

Have your opinion, I have mine, clearly I wont be able to change your mind and my mind isn't changing so we can end it there.

 

[omooba]

i think this went to far, i respect both views, i think what he was saying is nothing is deserving of a nerf. if that can be agreed on.

i still disagree, still think should be nerfed because it's so drastically different from every other grappler's frames but like i said it's his opinion and i respect it just don't act like this is just a problem for scrubs like that shit isn't nasty

 

[Rude]

Iluusions, FK, FKJR, Alucard, and like 3 other people.

People try with Sun God.

Sun God is fine. He has the same pressure system as Blood God, but with an actual mix, where as Blood God does not.

He has answers for people trying to jump/armor grabs. In fact, just like another Kotal variation with gaps I could mention, he can use those to bait. Then we have his parry which can absorb almost everything.

Saying, "you don't see x in tournament" has always been a pretty derp argument. 100 variations, small community.

 

[Rude]

To stay on topic, I asked for some evidence of this infinite awhile back and got nothing.

If it is a TRUE infinite, i.e. no backdashing/armor/pushback, at every part of the screen, then yes, it needs to change.

But now I'm seeing people demanding nerfs to his b1 string.

Demanding nerfs to his big leg?
Demanding nerfs to Slasher Jason?
Demanding nerfs to his buffs (the point of the variation and what makes him unique)?
Demanding nerfs to his grab?

So...what exactly is he allowed to have according to TYM?

Better question: What if it isn't a matter of Jason being "broken," but of Jason players being better than the people crying about him?

Does anyone on TYM actually get outplayed anymore?

 

[CrazyFingers]

To stay on topic, I asked for some evidence of this infinite awhile back and got nothing.

If it is a TRUE infinite, i.e. no backdashing/armor/pushback, at every part of the screen, then yes, it needs to change.

But now I'm seeing people demanding nerfs to his b1 string.

Demanding nerfs to his big leg?
Demanding nerfs to Slasher Jason?
Demanding nerfs to his buffs (the point of the variation and what makes him unique)?
Demanding nerfs to his grab?

So...what exactly is he allowed to have according to TYM?

Better question: What if it isn't a matter of Jason being "broken," but of Jason players being better than the people crying about him?

Does anyone on TYM actually get outplayed anymore?

I'm putting a lot of it up to matchup experience or lack of but idk, I don't see who these people play

 

[MadPropz101]

He doesn't.

 

[Rude]

So...

I just went into training mode with Jason.

I set Tremor and Liu to armor and backdash both midscreen and in the corner.

Not only could they escape with both midscreen, but even though my repeated d1s beat their backdash in the corner, it didn't beat the armor on Tremor's straight punch or Liu's armor. Even more interesting than that was that Jason was pushed away after doing a few of them in succession.

People seem to forget that every normal in this game had pushback on block. Varying degrees of pushback.

ALSO....

I am mashing d1 on block and am getting Reversal thrown by both characters.

What this means is that there is no actual infinite.

Please shut the fuck up about it.

 

[villainous monk]

I've read this thread and it makes my eyes bleed. I don't understand what you guys are arguing.

If Lord Jensen has a little dirt on him then whatever. Look at the rest of the cast who doesn't have any dirt or OH's or great mixups.

At release till mkxl he was kinda trash now he's a bit better but he can't even compare to some of the other top tiers so no. He does not need nerfs or a buff in my opinion. He's pretty much balanced.


Fix the rest of the shit and bring the lower tier variations up a notch or two and bring the game to a better balance across the board.

Lord Jensen is fine. A lil dirt ain't bad.

 

[Rude]

Also, as Tremor I put myself in the corner and set Jason to do repeated d1s on me. As a Reversal, I'm able to throw him out of multiple attempts with consistency.

So the people that told me that I was wrong about throwing Jason out of his d1 are actually full of shit. Fancy that, on TYM.

Added note: WhIle cornered, I am also jumping out.

D1 Infinite officially debunked.

 

[Eldriken]

Also, as Tremor I put myself in the corner and set Jason to do repeated d1s on me. As a Reversal, I'm able to throw him out of multiple attempts with consistency.

So the people that told me that I was wrong about throwing Jason out of his d1 are actually full of shit. Fancy that, on TYM.

Added note: WhIle cornered, I am also jumping out.

D1 Infinite officially debunked.

It probably should have been called a pseudo infinite. I pretty much explained that with my response to you earlier in the thread. I just didn't use the term "pseudo". =P

 

[Rude]

It probably should have been called a pseudo infinite. I pretty much explained that with my response to you earlier in the thread. I just didn't use the term "pseudo". =P

It's not even pseudo. If I'm Reversal Throwing with Liu and Tremor after one blocked d1, literally anyone can. Unless pseudo infinite means, "like three of them."

So what's the next talking point for why Jason needs nerfs?

 

[hkriderz]

Let the d1 discussion rest in peace. Make it -4 or -5, an actual poke. Those saying it should remain cause "stop trying to take away his dirt" that's a bad reason. Jason will still have all his tools, only his pokes will start working like actual pokes.

The grab issue is 50 50 so let's just agree to disagree. Some think it needs more recovery like me and it's because for a very hard and ballsy read to make for a very tight link to NJP him. Others dont agree. End of discussion.

 

[The_Tile]

Just an observation, people are using the same arguments to defend this as they did Ronin's pseudo infinite.

 

[Rude]

Let the d1 discussion rest in peace. Make it -4 or -5, an actual poke. Those saying it should remain cause "stop trying to take away his dirt" that's a bad reason. Jason will still have all his tools, only his pokes will start working like actual pokes.

The grab issue is 50 50 so let's just agree to disagree. Some think it needs more recovery like me, and others don't. End of discussion.

"Like an actual poke."

You know there is no universal amount of - frames that every poke shares in this game, right?

As in, every poke has different frame data?