Question - Jason Voorhees Why Does Jason Need Nerfs?

[Rude]

Yeah, the throw CAN beat it, if your timing is off. It's a 2 frame link to beat the throw. This is math, Rude. If d1, d1 literally can't beat a throw, let's pack up the entire thread because the frame data is actually wrong and this has all been an even more pointless conversation than usual.

I also never claimed it was an infinite. Reactionary people did. Anyone who actually understood what they were talking about made the claims that it can't be counter poked by certain characters and the problem becomes compounded in the corner where you can't backdash and with the armor breaking buff. At the very worst, it's highly situational strong pressure. I should've actually explained my position to you from the beginning instead of just commenting on frame data.

That's fair. I'll hold that.

Fair enough, but it's still a viable option unless the player is committing to a 2 frame link incase they MIGHT throw.

"Technically" the d1 should win everytime, but you and I are smart enough to know that isn't how it works in practice, right?

 

[Second Saint]

That's fair. I'll hold that.

Fair enough, but it's still a viable option unless the player is committing to a 2 frame link incase they MIGHT throw.

"Technically" the d1 should win everytime, but you and I are smart enough to know that isn't how it works in practice, right?

Absolutely agreed. Although, I always assume there's someone out there who could do it consistently, even when I can't. I know if I tried it, I'd get thrown all the time by people that knew to do that.

 

[hkriderz]

so I guess Slayer, when he played Lao and did that exact thing I'm describing, or DJT, who also did that with Lao, were making it up?

Fair enough, but you're still trying to apply universal frame data to pokes that are not universal. A lot of characters can do things after a blocked poke.

-5 doesn't automatically mean your turn is over. They can armor, they can backdash. You could mistime your button and they get to go into something else.

Look at Boneshaper. His main string is -5, yet Wound lands d1s after it often. Do you think that's made up?

-5 doesn't guarantee you anything.

Look whatever slayer and DJT and cowboy do in tournaments is not vital to this discussion. It's a tournament setting, combos get dropped, nerves and shit make that stuff work sometime because they didn't react quick enough.

We're talking about pure numbers here. There is a clear 13 frame gap between Laos d1 and anything he does after. It is your turn there. Any mid that's not turtle slow can win it.

And I'm not saying a blocked poke is the dead end. You can poke again or as you said backdash or armor. That's the counterpoking game. Doing a blocked poke into a string is not a part of this. Doesn't work. If you properly time your counterpoking string or poke, it should be beat out. It's all about the numbers. Shinnok d1'ing out of -5 means an 11 frame move. If you have anything faster it's beaten.

Jason is 6 frames and -2. So if he d1s again it's 8 frames. Some chars don't have 8 frame or faster pokes. If he b3s it becomes 11 frames, which is very hard to counter. If you make it -5, b3 will be 14 frames giving you enough of a room so Jason can't do it after a blocked poke without getting hit.

 

[Rude]

Look whatever slayer and DJT and cowboy do in tournaments is not vital to this discussion. It's a tournament setting, combos get dropped, nerves and shit make that stuff work sometime because they didn't react quick enough.

We're talking about pure numbers here. There is a clear 13 frame gap between Laos d1 and anything he does after. It is your turn there. Any mid that's not turtle slow can win it.

And I'm not saying a blocked poke is the dead end. You can poke again or as you said backdash or armor. That's the counterpoking game. Doing a blocked poke into a string is not a part of this. Doesn't work. If you properly time your counterpoking string or poke, it should be beat out. It's all about the numbers. Shinnok d1'ing out of -5 means an 11 frame move. If you have anything faster it's beaten.

Jason is 6 frames and -2. So if he d1s again it's 8 frames. Some chars don't have 8 frame or faster pokes. If he b3s it becomes 11 frames, which is very hard to counter. If you make it -5, b3 will be 14 frames giving you enough of a room so Jason can't do it after a blocked poke without getting hit.

What you're not understanding is that when you're talking about real match application, being slightly - doesn't guarantee anything. That's my point. Jason can't infinite anyone at -2, so I don't see what the problem is.

Make a read.

 

[hkriderz]

What you're not understanding is that when you're talking about real match application, being slightly - doesn't guarantee anything. That's my point. Jason can't infinite anyone at -2, so I don't see what the problem is.

Make a read.

And what you're not understanding is I never said it guranteed anything. I'm saying is that if he d1's again it's hard to beat, if he goes to his 9 frame mid it's hard to counter as well.

"Make a read" makes no sense if you're talking in an actual match. Saltface played unstoppable against me and his d1 is the most crippling thing Jason has. Literally he can just do it over and over and it's very hard to escape, and if you try it takes one b3 or b1 for him to full combo you.

Make it -5 and be done. Jeez I can't believe this is an argument. The nerf will not even affect Jason. It will make his opponents not have to literally be terrified of his d1

 

[Cooljaxx]

I'm sleep the patch was just confirmed . Check boons Twitter.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I'm sleep the patch was just confirmed . Check boons Twitter.

This means this thread is pointless, don't bother posting on it anymore because all conversation doesn't matter, the patch is made

 

[hkriderz]

I'm sleep the patch was just confirmed . Check boons Twitter.

Prepare your anuses boyz

 

[dennycascade]

The F/T without Ferra NJP can punish it.

I love the progression of talking points on TYM.

"B+1~grab is plus on whiff"

"Ok maybe not plus but it's safe"

"Well...you can punish but it's extremely difficult"


"d+1 is a block infinite"

"Well against certain characters."

"Ok but he can get a few in a row...in the corner."

It's actually plus on whiff though lol don't know why people are spreading false info

 

[dennycascade]

It's not even pseudo. If I'm Reversal Throwing with Liu and Tremor after one blocked d1, literally anyone can. Unless pseudo infinite means, "like three of them."

So what's the next talking point for why Jason needs nerfs?

If that's working for you then the jason player is messing up, mathematically the throw will never win if he times the d1s right.

 

[Rude]

And what you're not understanding is I never said it guranteed anything. I'm saying is that if he d1's again it's hard to beat, if he goes to his 9 frame mid it's hard to counter as well.

"Make a read" makes no sense if you're talking in an actual match. Saltface played unstoppable against me and his d1 is the most crippling thing Jason has. Literally he can just do it over and over and it's very hard to escape, and if you try it takes one b3 or b1 for him to full combo you.

Make it -5 and be done. Jeez I can't believe this is an argument. The nerf will not even affect Jason. It will make his opponents not have to literally be terrified of his d1

Making a read is literally part of every real match. It sounds like you're being outplayed.

 

[CrazyFingers]

NONE OF THIS MATTERS! THE PATCH IS DONE! Stop bitching about D1's and command grab whiffs till we know what is happening to characters. Also, to add any salt you might have because I'm evil like that, Jason was in the poll of characters to be buffed which means...he might...be buffed...

 

[Awkward Sloth]

Aren't all of Sub Zero's pokes 9 frames? So against Sub Jason in the corner can mash down 1 without Sub being able to poke. But he could parry in unbreakable to beat it every time so there's that.

Reversal throw seems inconsistent when trying it in the lab. As myself as Jason with computer set to reversal throw I'd randomly beat out the throw in the corner with a d1. Sometimes it seemed distance dependent sometimes not. I had the most success beating the reversal throw by doing b1 (which is -2) into d1 after hitting the reset position button in training mode at the right corner of the screen. That seemed to put me at the best position to beat out reversal throw.

I could get d1 d1 to beat a reversal throw but not three d1s in a row.

When trying myself as Sub to get the reversal throw with the computer recored to mash d1 in the corner I was getting beat a lot more consistently out of the throw. But that's human error so I'm not sure how to judge that part of things. When anyone else tried did they get reversal throw to work for them every time?

Maybe you gotta have 1 frame reactions for the throw option to work? Which is kinda silly.

 

[hkriderz]

Making a read is literally part of every real match. It sounds like you're being outplayed.

smh I'm done with this argument. Have your opinion I don't care anymore. I could not have explained it more than I did. It needs to be -5 and if you disagree then I don't care -_-

 

[Rude]

smh I'm done with this argument. Have your opinion I don't care anymore. I could not have explained it more than I did. It needs to be -5 and if you disagree then I don't care -_-

It doesn't really matter to me if it's -5. I was mistaken about a few things, but I honestly don't think his d1 is this game-breaking, "omfg WE NEED TO NERF THIS NOW" madness that everyone makes it out to be.

 

[hkriderz]

It doesn't really matter to me if it's -5. I was mistaken about a few things, but I honestly don't think his d1 is this game-breaking, "omfg WE NEED TO NERF THIS NOW" madness that everyone makes it out to be.

It's not the OMG INFINITE NO OPTIONS shit people are making it out to be. But making it -5 will make it perfecy balanced. 9 frame characters have an unfair situation to deal with and it cures that and fixes the meta

 

[CrazyFingers]

It's not the OMG INFINITE NO OPTIONS shit people are making it out to be. But making it -5 will make it perfecy balanced. 9 frame characters have an unfair situation to deal with and it cures that and fixes the meta

Which could be fixed in the patch that was just confirmed

 

[dennycascade]

Guys seriously the d1 "pseudo infinite" is a reality in the corner against Tremor, Liu and Sub. For other characters it's extremely hard to poke out if the jason player is on point BUT it's possible. Reversal throw is not a thing (again, unless the jason screws up) because a 6 frame move after -2 will come out in 8 frames, and a 10 frame throw will never come out faster. Obviously this needs to be fixed so all characters have a way to poke out of this d1 pressure, I wouldn't even call it a nerf really, it's fixing something that's clearly broken. -4 sounds fine to me, it would put his d1's frame data on par with reptile's d3 (7f and -3)and Cassie's as well (IIRC). Ferra/Torr's d3 is 7f and -2 so Jason's d1 wouldn't have the best frame data on a poke anymore, but most importantly his corner trap would be gone so people can shut up about him. The command grab recovery nerf that some people are asking for seems really random and like something you'd see casuals complaining about. Jason's b1 tick grab is unsafe if jumped. If you make the read to jump out of it, you can punish it every time. Sorry you have to practice the punish, that's part of the Jason matchup. It's your job to punish the move, not NRS's job to make it easy for you lol. And this complaint is over a 13% mixup that throws you out of the corner.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Guys seriously the d1 infinite is a reality in the corner against Tremor, Liu and Sub. For other characters it's extremely hard to poke out if the jason player is on point BUT it's possible. Reversal throw is not a thing (again, unless the jason screws up) because a 6 frame move after -2 will come out in 8 frames, and a 10 frame throw will never come out faster. Obviously this needs to be fixed so all characters have a way to poke out of this d1 pressure, I wouldn't even call it a nerf really, it's fixing something that's clearly broken. -4 sounds fine to me, it would put his d1's frame data on par with reptile's d3 (7f and -3)and Cassie's as well (IIRC). Ferra/Torr's d3 is 7f and -2 so Jason's d1 wouldn't have the best frame data on a poke anymore, but most importantly his infinite would be gone so people can shut up about him. The command grab recovery nerf that some people are asking for seems really random and like something you'd see casuals complaining about. Jason's b1 tick grab is unsafe if jumped. If you make the read to jump out of it, you can punish it every time. Sorry you have to practice the punish, that's part of the Jason matchup. It's your job to punish the move, not NRS's job to make it easy for you lol. And this complaint is over a 13% mixup that throws you out of the corner.

AND! patch seriously, conversation is basically done. Let's be productive, let's lab shit or something

 

[CrazyFingers]

Not to blow off your post just...we really don't need to talk about it

 

[dennycascade]

NONE OF THIS MATTERS! THE PATCH IS DONE! Stop bitching about D1's and command grab whiffs till we know what is happening to characters. Also, to add any salt you might have because I'm evil like that, Jason was in the poll of characters to be buffed which means...he might...be buffed...

The patch probably isn't coming out until like october 4 or whenever they said PC MKXL and anything could change between now and then. And we know NRS is reading all the misinformation and whining people are posting in this thread (since 16 bit made a post) and they're probably taking some of that BS into consideration for their balance changes. Keep in mind these are the same guys that nerfed jason and buffed summoner quan in the same patch and later nerfed hat trick and buffed cutthroat.

 

[Rude]

Guys seriously the d1 infinite is a reality in the corner against Tremor, Liu and Sub. For other characters it's extremely hard to poke out if the jason player is on point BUT it's possible. Reversal throw is not a thing (again, unless the jason screws up) because a 6 frame move after -2 will come out in 8 frames, and a 10 frame throw will never come out faster. Obviously this needs to be fixed so all characters have a way to poke out of this d1 pressure, I wouldn't even call it a nerf really, it's fixing something that's clearly broken. -4 sounds fine to me, it would put his d1's frame data on par with reptile's d3 (7f and -3)and Cassie's as well (IIRC). Ferra/Torr's d3 is 7f and -2 so Jason's d1 wouldn't have the best frame data on a poke anymore, but most importantly his infinite would be gone so people can shut up about him. The command grab recovery nerf that some people are asking for seems really random and like something you'd see casuals complaining about. Jason's b1 tick grab is unsafe if jumped. If you make the read to jump out of it, you can punish it every time. Sorry you have to practice the punish, that's part of the Jason matchup. It's your job to punish the move, not NRS's job to make it easy for you lol. And this complaint is over a 13% mixup that throws you out of the corner.

Yeah, I was wrong about the throws. Definitely.

It's not an infinite, not even in the corner. Multiple d1s will push him away from Tremor and Liu on block.

They can armor as well, or even jump out. I asked about it and it was confirmed by 16 Bit that you can jump out of multiple blocked d1s.

There's nothing infinite about it.

 

[dennycascade]

Yeah, I was wrong about the throws. Definitely.

It's not an infinite, not even in the corner. Multiple d1s will push him away from Tremor and Liu on block.

They can armor as well, or even jump out. I asked about it and it was confirmed by 16 Bit that you can jump out of multiple blocked d1s.

There's nothing infinite about it.

True, actually my wording was wrong. Infinite isn't the right word, since I believe you have to block around 5 d1s before you're out of range, but jason can obviously make a little micro-run in between any of those d1s that you're forced to respect and reset the pushback. And at any point he can d1 tick throw too so there are definitely reads involved here, so a true block infinite is not the right word for it. I'm gonna change my wording to "pseudo infinite".

 

[16 Bit]

Here are the facts based on a computer with perfect timing. In the corner after 3 d+1s Tremor can jump out. It takes a minimum of 3 frames to micro walk and 10 to run from neutral. So micro walking/running is actually slower. This isn't a block infinite. Stop the shitposting.

 

[Rude]

Here are the facts based on a computer with perfect timing. In the corner after 3 d+1s Tremor can jump out. It takes a minimum of 3 frames to micro walk and 10 to run from neutral. So micro walking/running is actually slower. This isn't a block infinite. Stop the shitposting.

Exactly.