Question - Grandmaster Deleted Account.

[ChaosTheory]

...because the MUs will change drastically in SZ's favor.

This is the point I'm not so sure about. I don't see what match-ups are exacerbated by this. Characters that have a tough time dealing with the Clone (even match-ups included), aren't really the ones going through Clone in the first place. So this property wouldn't really apply. It's the characters that blow right through the Clone like it's not there AND make it disappear in the process that would feel a change. D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, Kenshi, etc. And I don't think those match-ups suddenly become in Sub-Zero's favor. They still blow right through Clone. It just doesn't go away immediately and become null.

No, this doesn't stem from Hunter Predator. His Clone has never gone away on block until MKX. But again, given the nature of MKX, I'd rather they just improve Cryomancer and Unbreakable to handle awkward match-ups.

What do you mean by the clone staying on block? Sorry I'm new to subzero.

If Sub-Zero blocks an attack while the Clone is out, the Clone goes away. Moves with disjointed hitboxes and some projectile-type moves go straight through the Clone and are able to damage Sub-Zero. If Sub-Zero defends those moves, the Clone still goes away.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

This is the point I'm not so sure about. I don't see what match-ups are exacerbated by this. Characters that have a tough time dealing with the Clone (even match-ups included), aren't really the ones going through Clone in the first place. So this property wouldn't really apply. It's the characters that blow right through the Clone like it's not there AND make it disappear in the process that would feel a change. D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, Kenshi, etc. And I don't think those match-ups suddenly become in Sub-Zero's favor. They still blow right through Clone. It just doesn't go away immediately and become null.

No, this doesn't stem from Hunter Predator. His Clone has never gone away on block until MKX. But again, given the nature of MKX, I'd rather they just improve Cryomancer and Unbreakable to handle awkward match-ups.



If Sub-Zero blocks an attack while the Clone is out, the Clone goes away. Moves with disjointed hitboxes and some projectile-type moves go straight through the Clone and are able to damage Sub-Zero. If Sub-Zero defends those moves, the Clone still goes away.

That sucks. I think?

 

[ChaosTheory]

That sucks. I think?

It does in some match-ups where the opponent pretends like GM's only tool doesn't exist... because Sub isn't helped by his other two variations.

 

[TyCarter35]

Seriously though GM is not the one to be addressed. Cryomancer and Unbreakable need to be addressed before GM does as Cryo and Unbreakable should be buffed up to the point where the other variations should be able to combat GM's bad matchups. Cyromancer could have a tiny bit more safety especially on his ice weapons and Unbreakable should hv a 1 frame startup on his parry.

 

[Geoffmeister]

This is the point I'm not so sure about. I don't see what match-ups are exacerbated by this. Characters that have a tough time dealing with the Clone (even match-ups included), aren't really the ones going through Clone in the first place. So this property wouldn't really apply. It's the characters that blow right through the Clone like it's not there AND make it disappear in the process that would feel a change. D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, Kenshi, etc. And I don't think those match-ups suddenly become in Sub-Zero's favor. They still blow right through Clone. It just doesn't go away immediately and become null.

No, this doesn't stem from Hunter Predator. His Clone has never gone away on block until MKX. But again, given the nature of MKX, I'd rather they just improve Cryomancer and Unbreakable to handle awkward match-ups.
.

I took that into account and I think it'd be a better decision to give D'vorah and Alien hurtboxes, that'd be enough. Kung Jin, and Takeda would still be an issue, using weapons it makes sense from a realistic perspective but gameplay perspective it's probably not a good time. And no excuse either since they have the tools.

With any luck Takeda and Kung Jin will also see a downtone as every variation should have at least a few bad MU's, and 7-3 won't be as obvious as a result, however, I feel GM deserves a few of those.

Not having it removable on block would affect Quan, Kenshi, Ermac, Sektor, Tremor, Shinnok, Jacqui and a few others .. and as I mentioned earlier, any string would get eaten up by it, this affects all MU's immediately. A change this big should come with a significant drawback. Like a really long cooldown for example. I'd hate to see it regardless, his corner game is still arguably the best with any exchange leading to corner carry, I doubt anyon but GMse want to see that situation become even harder to deal with.

Oh and yeah, it didn't go away on block in MK9, different game and different tool mechanics, though..
And I can agree that Unbreakable and Cryo could use some slight improvements.

 

[hkriderz]

Even though I believe Cryo is so annoying with mindless 50 50s, I agree they should be equal variations so all three can be used. But as a grandmaster main,

- i would like b12 clone to be safe
- fix all his issues (tbh if we want anything, we need to fix him first.
- he doesn't need quicker low starters, though it would be good if his b33 ice ball worked on everyone midscreen except just females.
- i agree he needs a 7 frame poke. there are annoying blockstrings sub can't do anything about.

If he gets these, I'm fine with a damge scaling of like 4 or 5%.

I took that into account and I think it'd be a better decision to give D'vorah and Alien hurtboxes, that'd be enough. Kung Jin, and Takeda would still be an issue, using weapons it makes sense from a realistic perspective but gameplay perspective it's probably not a good time. And no excuse either since they have the tools.

100% agree with this.

Oh and yeah, it didn't go away on block in MK9, different game and different tool mechanics, though.

Not neccesarily. See i think the main reason that clone goes away on block is because it eats projectiles now. Sub blocked them in MK9 and having both benefits would be dumb in MKX. But tbh id rather take clone on block than one hit projectile immunity.


EDIT- oh and what is it with a 12 frame d2?!!! what Paulo? Make is 9 at least

 

[thlityoursloat]

If he's going to get a 7f poke then only Unbreakable and Cryomancer should have it, GM doesn't deserve one.

 

[tafka Djinn]

I'm really not sure why 7f D1 isn't universal, just to give everybody a potential out. If Quan could get one at 6f I don't see why it would be crazy to make that a universal option.

 

[crosshair271]

Ugh this mess again. Paulo needs a brain and eye transplants. In the meantime I'm still slitting my wrists with PC. I'd rather have PC updated than buffs.

 

[stamatis]

SZ needs 1 of 2 things.

Either:

1. Cryo and Unbreakable need changes. The variation system is there to make it so if one variation has issues in certain mu's/situations, you can always use a different variation of the character. Even if the other variation isn't better overall, it still has better application in some situations which makes it a great pick based on a few mu's. With SZ however, the variation system is useless because is other variations lose worse than GM and they actually lose to the exact same mu's for the same reasons.

2. If you don't change Cryo and Unbreakable then GM needs a little help.

I think that since grandmaster is what he is,no other variation will be treated gently,it happens with my bojutsu and ancestral,since shaolin is brain-dead and too good.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Make his other variations usable first.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Listen, the issue is this:

In the corner, Grandmaster can kill anyone, easily. You don't even have to be good, or understand how any of the game works to take an entire life bar, that is his strength.

But, this is "balanced" out with his mid screen game when he doesn't have a life lead and/or is forced to chase or being zoned out, he is terrible when this is the case, but that is totally fine, as his corner game is braindead, it might be the easiest thing in the game to operate against anyone.

Combine that with his lack of string options, all his strings negative on block, and he doesn't even have a string to push the opponent back to create space outside of using a Klone on block (which is also unsafe, apart from a non hit confirmable F4), and he hasn't got a single stagger. You could say 1, then something, but after the 1, he has no real options, maybe 12, maybe 123, but, again he is -6 and -8, some characters can even punish them...

BUT...

This ruins Cyromancer and Unbreakable, as both have to deal with this downside just as much and don't have a traditional projectile or additional strings added to help with this.

Basically, Grandmaster is fine apart from being given a stagger string or a 0 on block push back string.

Unbreakable and Cryo need serious, serious attention. If you think otherwise, it is clear to me and others that play those variations, that you haven't actually played the character, and if you have, you pocket it.

Ive heard many people say Unbreakable and Cryo are fine, yet bitch endlessly about how their character and variations are ass, and "you just don't know".

Ditto.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yes @UsedForGlue nailed the issue.
NRS have backed themselves into a corner with balancing Sub-Zero. Grandmaster's Ice Klone can compensate for his slow pokes, negative strings, and in some matchups his bad safety. If they were to buff all of the above mentioned items to help Cryomancer or Unbreakable, Grandmaster would be broke as fuck. Can you imagine Grandmaster running around with plus staggers, fast pokes, and because his string recovery was buffed he would in theory have more safe Klone cancels. @M.D. would probably have an actual heart attack.

Also yes the Klone should definitely stay on block. It wouldn't change a lot of his winning matchups because those characters can't go through the Klone anyways! It would only affect Sun/Blood God, but as we have seen, NRS has no problem buffing Kotal Kahn to specifically fight Sub-Zero, so that could be fixed. Grandmaster would STILL lose to D'Vorah, Alien, Predator, and Takeda if Klone stayed on block, it just wouldn't be the utter destruction it is now. Sub-Zero doesn't beat any character as bad as he loses to those characters right now. I still firmly believe he wins more than he loses and is a great character, but come on guys...

@Tweedy I can get behind that, I play both SZ and Tarkatan Alien.

 

[thlityoursloat]

GM needs to get fucked by certain characters to make up for all the characters he royally fucks. Anyone without disjointed hitbox attacks = disadvantageous MU.

 

[Shade667]

Before they adjust Grandmaster, I would SERIOUSLY want them to address Cryomancer and especially Unbreakable first.

Cryomancer's fine. Come to Australia. We'll show you how its done.

 

[champdee]

he need a mid screen mind game, so to do that you have to alter his horrific frames.. .. imagine is 24 was 0 on block, theres a mid screen mind game there (d4 after etc) I know, it's slow.. but he has one fo the best the jip1's in the game and would help micscreen..I actually have some mid screen stuff... which I won't share yet because I think theres a bit more to what I'm working on.

He needs a chance to win besides relying on the corner, and when I say a midscreen mind game, I'm talking one small one, something, etc, think mk9

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Cryomancer's fine. Come to Australia. We'll show you how its done.

I don't wanna be "that guy" here, so I'll just take your word for it.

 

[JDF9799]

Grandmaster should be one of the first characters they fix. The fact that his combos don't work on most of the females is a huge issue.

 

[hkriderz]

It's so sad to see that more people voted for "he's fine" rather than "Fix the female hitboxes." Way to improve our game TYM

 

[7L]

Whatever brady says

/thread

 

[SM StarGazer]

It's so sad to see that more people voted for "he's fine" rather than "Fix the female hitboxes." Way to improve our game TYM

Its fair thats why. Sub-zero is top 7 variation in the game. Not top 7 characters...no no. Just GM. Get put in the corner as Kitana v GM.

Eat tha mix, Become tha mix, Fear tha mix, Praise tha mix, Rage at the Armor breaking (SAFE) shatter combos into stupid dmg into another 50/50 armor breaking ice-clone mix-up,.......post on TYM(He sobad cause his mid scrween cowmbos be ass and freemales are smwaller then men, like yeah Cassie shoupd have a hitbox the size of Goro, but wait I freeze, 50/50, armor-break, vortex(yes that corner shit is a vortex, it starts and ends with clone into a 50/50 that leads to the same setup.....vortex.).

At least his Faction kill pose is the weakest thing I've ever seen. Flicks his wrist into the air and poses like some kinda rainbow donkey. Him and Lebron are obviously gay for each other, and Kitana needs a god damn OH.

*Exhales*
Fuck Canada. Fuck GM. Long Live Free Speech. Amerika tha Brueatiful.

Whatever Brady says

/thread

/I love Canada. Ya'll gave us Drake though so for that....Kill yourselves cause thats what he's doing to us.

/Ya'll also gave us Rocky and Bullwrinkle. So thanks for that.


/Thread

 

[hkriderz]

Its fair thats why. Sub-zero is top 7 variation in the game. Not top 7 characters...no no. Just GM. Get put in the corner as Kitana v GM.

Eat tha mix, Become tha mix, Fear tha mix, Praise tha mix, Rage at the Armor breaking (SAFE) shatter combos into stupid dmg into another 50/50 armor breaking ice-clone mix-up,.......post on TYM(He sobad cause his mid scrween cowmbos be ass and freemales are smwaller then men, like yeah Cassie shoupd have a hitbox the size of Goro, but wait I freeze, 50/50, armor-break, vortex(yes that corner shit is a vortex, it starts and ends with clone into a 50/50 that leads to the same setup.....vortex.).

At least his Faction kill pose is the weakest thing I've ever seen. Flicks his wrist into the air and poses like some kinda rainbow donkey. Him and Lebron are obviously gay for each other, and Kitana needs a god damn OH.

*Exhales*
Fuck Canada. Fuck GM. Long Live Free Speech. Amerika tha Brueatiful.

Whatever Brady says

/thread

/I love Canada. Ya'll gave us Drake though so for that....Kill yourselves cause thats what he's doing to us.

/Ya'll also gave us Rocky and Bullwrinkle. So thanks for that.


/Thread

um....what? O_O

 

[SM StarGazer]

um....what? O_O

Eggplant

 

[ILuvFightGames]

Its fair thats why. Sub-zero is top 7 variation in the game. Not top 7 characters...no no. Just GM. Get put in the corner as Kitana v GM.

Eat tha mix, Become tha mix, Fear tha mix, Praise tha mix, Rage at the Armor breaking (SAFE) shatter combos into stupid dmg into another 50/50 armor breaking ice-clone mix-up,.......post on TYM(He sobad cause his mid scrween cowmbos be ass and freemales are smwaller then men, like yeah Cassie shoupd have a hitbox the size of Goro, but wait I freeze, 50/50, armor-break, vortex(yes that corner shit is a vortex, it starts and ends with clone into a 50/50 that leads to the same setup.....vortex.).

At least his Faction kill pose is the weakest thing I've ever seen. Flicks his wrist into the air and poses like some kinda rainbow donkey. Him and Lebron are obviously gay for each other, and Kitana needs a god damn OH.

*Exhales*
Fuck Canada. Fuck GM. Long Live Free Speech. Amerika tha Brueatiful.

Whatever Brady says

/thread

/I love Canada. Ya'll gave us Drake though so for that....Kill yourselves cause thats what he's doing to us.

/Ya'll also gave us Rocky and Bullwrinkle. So thanks for that.


/Thread

Subzero has 50/50's? Which are?

 

[Shade667]

Subzero has 50/50's? Which are?

B2 and b33