The Conclusion of MKXL at CEO 2016

[Wetdoba]

It's like a trend to call underused variations/lowtiers hype, regardless of if they're actually entertaining to watch or not. Back during KiT, people used to enjoy watching characters like Demo Sonya and Takeda in top 8s, but now apparently they're considered hype killers and it's an issue when even one makes it to top 8 despite the fact that in terms of aesthetics, they play roughly the same as they did half a year ago.

On the other hand you have the vocal majority that swear they hate the rush down, safe 50/50 nature of this game, and wish there was more emphasis on other metas such as zoning and footsies. But when you have a player like F0xy who gets most of his mileage from zoning, whiff punishes, and anti-airs while playing one of the most solid neutrals on screen, you're met with "b12zZZZzzzz". Meanwhile a character like Smoke, who's essentially just setplay/vortex haven, is hailed as entertaining to watch.

It's become pretty apparent that people just see what they want to see, and are fine with that as long as their views are in line with general opinions held by the community/twitch chat.

1. The ceo crowd was hype for smoke because his combos are swaggy and they had never seen him before probably. All they saw was smoke evades and stylish moves

2. Footsies are all about pressing the right button at the right range, when the right button is always B12 and the right range is any, its fucking boring. Watch the SF top 8 if you want to see people interested in real footsies

 

[Grape Juice City]

1. The ceo crowd was hype for smoke because his combos are swaggy and they had never seen him before probably. All they saw was smoke evades and stylish moves

2. Footsies are all about pressing the right button at the right range, when the right button is always B12 and the right range is any, its fucking boring. Watch the SF top 8 if you want to see people interested in real footsies

1. So your post pretty much reaffirms what I just said.

2. I did watch SFV, and people got hype for the same reasons they always do. Parries, Daigo, crossups, and the current top dog being dethroned.

Carry on.

 

[KingHippo]

I've mentioned this before, it's kinda backwards I agree, people '5050s' when they're the one getting 5050'd to death, but when they're watching it they love it.

They cry for this all sacred 'neutral' that they want to see, which is like 90% of my game, and it also gets shot down.

I think people just complain for the sake of it.

You could probably count the amount of 5050s I did in top 8 on one hand. Where as the amount of 5050s I blocked? Gonna need a few more limbs

You've kind of brought up one of the goofier points in that the people who are the best are the best because of the amount of space they control. Mileena, Alien, Sonya, Takeda, etc. Sonya and Alien have their fair share of mixups, but no one on the level is getting hit by Ronin b2 and low sword mixups; it's really the staggering of b1 and f12 that really dominate the game and force you to play against him with the occasional kunai mixup to steal some damage. Mileena, same thing: sais and b12 force you to play. Let's not forget Sonic's EB, who he pulled out a few times in these finals, which does the exact same thing.

The reality is, and this is an absurd term that I made up, the NRS community are top tier shamers. You can be the most skilled, have the best reads, be the very best, but unless you do it with what they consider "honest" you are not hype to watch nor are you actually good. There is no doubt Dragon is one of the best players currently playing, but you poll the majority I'm sure they would say it's all in the character.

It's gotten so bad that people won't even recognize good play anymore. The level of competition between Scar and Sonic or yourself and Hayatei is absolutely stunning, a true show of the best players playing the best characters, and that's thrown out because you guys are using the top tier. It's incredibly lame, and once again I'm embarrassed by the state we've come to.

TBF, this also happened in IGAU, when people wouldn't acknowledge Jupiter or Theo as being any good despite the insanely high level of play we were seeing. So really, nothing has changed, I guess.

 

[haketh]

It's gotten so bad that people won't even recognize good play anymore.

It's fucking amazing, I need people talking about how it's just 50/50 all day every day to go back and watch this top 8 & see just how immaculate all the whiff punishing & baiting was this whole time

 

[Jynks]

People always talk about how random MKx is.. and go on and on about it.. but if it is so random how can the same players all be hovering about the 1-4 spot. For a game that is "random" the top players are pretty stable.. that dosn't sound random to me, it sounds like Skill is rewarded and the top skilled players sit at the top. If it was "random" then you would see a huge amount of variance in the results and top player lists.

 

[Undeadjim]

@Jynks When people call it random I don't they aim to portray this completely random game where you may as well flip a few coins in a bo3 and call it a day. More what they are getting at is that games offense can remove player skill from the equation, depending on characters played. Now it just so happens currently that most characters that are strong currently mix you up considerably well which could be why you would see more of these posts.

 

[Jynks]

@Jynks When people call it random I don't they aim to portray this completely random game where you may as well flip a few coins in a bo3 and call it a day. More what they are getting at is that games offense can remove player skill from the equation, depending on characters played.

that dosn't make sense.. if it "removed player skill" then why is it always the same players at the top? If that were true (which it isn't) then the top player spots would be always in flux as the "random / zero player skill factor" would mean players would get knocked out and others be in top spot all the time.

TYM can not have it both ways... you can not have a game be "random" and "take no skill" but still have a set of totally dominant top players that continually beat everyone EVERY time.

 

[Tony at Home]

It's fucking amazing, I need people talking about how it's just 50/50 all day every day to go back and watch this top 8 & see just how immaculate all the whiff punishing & baiting was this whole time

It's almost as if some sort of- let's call it "neutral game"- must take place in order to get enough proximity and frame advantage to do a 50/50.

 

[sinosleep]

It's like a trend to call underused variations/lowtiers hype, regardless of if they're actually entertaining to watch or not. Back during KiT, people used to enjoy watching characters like Demo Sonya and Takeda in top 8s, but now apparently they're considered hype killers and it's an issue when even one makes it to top 8 despite the fact that in terms of aesthetics and gameplan, they play roughly the same as they did half a year ago.

On the other hand you have the vocal majority that swear they hate the rush down, safe 50/50 nature of this game, and wish there was more emphasis on other metas such as zoning and footsies. But when you have a player like F0xy who gets most of his mileage from zoning, whiff punishes, and anti-airs while playing one of the most solid neutrals on screen, you're met with "b12zZZZzzzz". Meanwhile a character like Smoke, who's essentially just setplay/vortex haven, is hailed as entertaining to watch.

It's become pretty apparent that people just see what they want to see, and are fine with that as long as their views are in line with general opinions held by the community/twitch chat.

If only I could like this post more than once. People are just being hypocritical fucking babies. I remember when Red Raptor went fucking ape at last years combo breaker and people were losing their fucking minds cause Takeda wasn't supposed to be wrecking house like that. Now all of a sudden Takeda's being called a hype killer? Some folks are never fucking happy I guess.

 

[Protagonist_1]

It's gotten so bad that people won't even recognize good play anymore. The level of competition between Scar and Sonic or yourself and Hayatei is absolutely stunning, a true show of the best players playing the best characters, and that's thrown out because you guys are using the top tier. It's incredibly lame, and once again I'm embarrassed by the state we've come to.

It's fucking amazing, I need people talking about how it's just 50/50 all day every day to go back and watch this top 8 & see just how immaculate all the whiff punishing & baiting was this whole time

I wasn't able to watch the whole top 8 (only top 3), but I agree with this.

I mean, was I the only person seeing this???

And this?

Spoiler

Not saying this happened through every match (again, I'm going to watch the earlier matches of top 8), but if I had read this thread before watching top 8 I would have assumed top 8 consisted of the competitors going on stage and playing rock, paper, scissors instead of MKX lol. To each his own I guess

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

SFV top 8 was for sure better for me than MKX top 8, reason being is the plays that were made in SFV top 8 caught the Ceo crowds attention more and u could see how hype they got for it as well. MKX top 8 this year for CEO was better tho because I know how much people despised tanya and it was nice seeing some erron black/ smoke and etc. Oh and for SFV, I believe 10 of the 18 in the cast have already won a premier major event or ranking major event (Karin, laura, nash, ryu, ken, necalli, cammy, chun li, fang, and r.mika). I am only saying this because I watch SFV frequently and am very aware of what ppl say about it's "balance" and what not. I dnt need to comment on the game being "incomplete" because that is obvious to everyone but the tournament play for the game is excellent and is only getting better. It is the most balanced fighter out overall imo as well, and it's DLC are made well so they don't come into the game causing problems.
However, I dnt think MKX is "dead" by any means and I think evo will have some surprises for us with MKX and I think the top 8 should be solid (first one on sunday so hopefully it gets ppl hype).

 

[RM slacked]

god I love watching alien and mileena thanks paulo

 

[Jynks]

I am only saying this because I watch SFV frequently and am very aware of what ppl say about it's "balance" and what not. I dnt need to comment on the game being "incomplete" because that is obvious to everyone but the tournament play for the game is excellent and is only getting better. It is the most balanced fighter out overall imo as well, and it's DLC are made well so they don't come into the game causing problems.

The problem with SFV (maybe problem is to strong a word) but the thing about SFV is that it plays so differently to 4. SFV has massive explosive damage. I mean Ken, Mika, Nash, Karan... then there are the super mix up guys like Dalsium or the range gods like Guile... the point is that SFV has, in some ways, that MK style momentum where 1 or 2 touches and you are just dead. The damage output is off the chain. This leads many SF players to hate on the game, as there is a huge adjustment to how you play it.

What SFV has that I wish MK had is the way damage works. The lower chip and the amazing idea to not have killing blows at all unless you get clean hits or specials. This allows the explosive MK style damage but also allows TIME in the game to have swings. Basically it allows defensive play. It is that defensive ability that "balances" it.

Even so, the super explosive damage in SF is taking a lot of people a lot of time to come to terms with... many of the hate threads about balance and unfairness in TYM you can find on shoryuken as well.

Balance is a perception thing. It isn't balance people are really talking about, it is about after you lose if you have the feeling that you had a decent chance to win. It is all about how you feel after you loose, and defensive options give you that feeling that you could have won.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

The problem with SFV (maybe problem is to strong a word) but the thing about SFV is that it plays so differently to 4. SFV has massive explosive damage. I mean Ken, Mika, Nash, Karan... then there are the super mix up guys like Dalsium or the range gods like Guile... the point is that SFV has, in some ways, that MK style momentum where 1 or 2 touches and you are just dead. The damage output is off the chain. This leads many SF players to hate on the game, as there is a huge adjustment to how you play it.

What SFV has that I wish MK had is the way damage works. The lower chip and the amazing idea to not have killing blows at all unless you get clean hits or specials. This allows the explosive MK style damage but also allows TIME in the game to have swings. Basically it allows defensive play. It is that defensive ability that "balances" it.

Even so, the super explosive damage in SF is taking a lot of people a lot of time to come to terms with... many of the hate threads about balance and unfairness in TYM you can find on shoryuken as well.

Balance is a perception thing. It isn't balance people are really talking about, it is about after you lose if you have the feeling that you had a decent chance to win. It is all about how you feel after you loose, and defensive options give you that feeling that you could have won.

Balance is always something that people bring up, so I brought up those results on the characters that have won events in SFV because I saw some misconceptions about SFV that I had to correct with factual evidence. In SFV, the only time people really get messed up is the corner (which is pretty much any 2d fighting game that has been made). Also there are very few ways to score a hard knockdown in SFV, so lots of times when u knock someone down, u have to read what they will do and nothing u do is guaranteed (no restands and stuff like that). People actually don't mind SFV's balance, ppl just feel that the game is too "repetitive" and not "flashy" enough like SF4 was.
But, I do agree that how ppl feel after they lose in a game is important to how much they like it so that is a very valid point.

 

[BillStickers]

Bill lbsh for a minute, you're still living in the age that MK9 is/was the best (NRS title) and everything after it sucked. MK9 had glaring issues as well my man

MK9 is the best NRS offering since the WB buyout.

 

[BillStickers]

I wasn't able to watch the whole top 8 (only top 3), but I agree with this.

I mean, was I the only person seeing this???

And this?

Spoiler

Not saying this happened through every match (again, I'm going to watch the earlier matches of top 8), but if I had read this thread before watching top 8 I would have assumed top 8 consisted of the competitors going on stage and playing rock, paper, scissors instead of MKX lol. To each his own I guess

Omgggg a whiff punish and a low crush holy fuck guys MKX is some srs biznizz!!!!11!1!1!1

 

[jmt]

Big D vs Rahsaan

 

[jmt]

Big d vs dms

 

[jmt]

OD Alcatraz vs Infinity

 

[jackempty0]

You

1. The ceo crowd was hype for smoke because his combos are swaggy and they had never seen him before probably. All they saw was smoke evades and stylish moves

2. Footsies are all about pressing the right button at the right range, when the right button is always B12 and the right range is any, its fucking boring. Watch the SF top 8 if you want to see people interested in real footsies

You say real footsies when one if the biggest complaints fir sfv is that it has lost the "footsies" that supposedly make street fighter great

 

[jackempty0]

People always talk about how random MKx is.. and go on and on about it.. but if it is so random how can the same players all be hovering about the 1-4 spot. For a game that is "random" the top players are pretty stable.. that dosn't sound random to me, it sounds like Skill is rewarded and the top skilled players sit at the top. If it was "random" then you would see a huge amount of variance in the results and top player lists.

I can't like this post enough

 

[jackempty0]

SFV top 8 was for sure better for me than MKX top 8, reason being is the plays that were made in SFV top 8 caught the Ceo crowds attention more and u could see how hype they got for it as well. MKX top 8 this year for CEO was better tho because I know how much people despised tanya and it was nice seeing some erron black/ smoke and etc. Oh and for SFV, I believe 10 of the 18 in the cast have already won a premier major event or ranking major event (Karin, laura, nash, ryu, ken, necalli, cammy, chun li, fang, and r.mika). I am only saying this because I watch SFV frequently and am very aware of what ppl say about it's "balance" and what not. I dnt need to comment on the game being "incomplete" because that is obvious to everyone but the tournament play for the game is excellent and is only getting better. It is the most balanced fighter out overall imo as well, and it's DLC are made well so they don't come into the game causing problems.
However, I dnt think MKX is "dead" by any means and I think evo will have some surprises for us with MKX and I think the top 8 should be solid (first one on sunday so hopefully it gets ppl hype).

My only issue with what you have said is about the character diversity. It is kind of hard for a bunch of different characters to win big events when one player completely and utterly dominates the game

 

[Skylight1]

Tom Brady stated in a video cast he had a few months back and people dogged him out. NOW people finally see his point on why this game only 1 year old, has already lost half of it's fan base and lost all hype for a new game. When will people take their blinders off and realize, this game is screwed and will NOT recover anytime soon. The fact that we had 4 Aliens, 2 mileenas in top 8 (minus the ONLY Sonya player to ever place that high in this game), should be enough for all those who don't see a problem to finally wake up. No amount of money is worth it when you already know the game is stacked against you and favors the other player's "Top tier". It only got worse when UltraDavid and Kitana Prime even commented on the single fact that you could speak the commentary into a voice recording, and press play during a SonicFox match. That's how horrible it is that you can call the moves right before it even happens. What the hell is happening to this community and game?

To even make matters worse, the only hype I could see on the stream was Melee.... a freaking 14 year old game, that is somehow MORE relevant than a game that came out within a year and 2 months ago! How does anyone explain that without using the cliched excuse of "They are just fanatics who'd go and support an old game; they don't want to support anything but Melee; they're lacking the amplitude to watch a "real" fighter." When you have two of your main fighting games representing EVO and they are made by the same exact company, I don't see the problem of why they wouldn't want to support it. Smash players are currently looking mighty fine at the moment yet we sit here and can't even come with a clear answer to the supposed "character problem"? I'd like to think this game is more than just 50/50s, "if you can't beat them, just join them!" attitude but I'm a realist and a pessimist and I don't think that's going to be the case. Man when this first came out, we even had known players from Street Fighter and UMVC3 come and play our game! That very first month was probably the most hype for a MK game since Deadly Alliance or Trilogy. Then, the complaints of "My character gets bodied by such such's zoning" or "Takeda get's pined down by Raiden and thus his offense is horrible. Nerf Raiden." Or my favorite example in which SonicFox plays against Tom's Sub-Zero and complains about how "OP" it is and thus started the true campaign of nerfing a character based purely off of misinformation.

How can we as a community even claim this is the game that we "love" anymore when BS inside and outside of the community has affected it more than anything? Please understand that I too, love this game but let's real here this game isn't going to survive after EVO. I'd be happy if it makes it's 2nd anniversary of release (where in other games, you've at least had multiple champions with different characters and a cast of variety around the board). This game makes it real hard to go around and say I'm a "Mortal Kombat fan"...

 

[Renzokuken]

Where is this "4 Aliens in top 8" coming from? Only Sonic, King, and Dragon used him in top 8. Slayer doesn't count because he used Kung Jin all the way at CEO barring the top 16 match he had vs. Dragon.

You guys are acting like people weren't using Kung Jin and Sonya to eliminate Alien and Mileena players in top 8.

 

[ghostwriteous]

Tom Brady stated in a video cast he had a few months back and people dogged him out. NOW people finally see his point on why this game only 1 year old, has already lost half of it's fan base and lost all hype for a new game. When will people take their blinders off and realize, this game is screwed and will NOT recover anytime soon. The fact that we had 4 Aliens, 2 mileenas in top 8 (minus the ONLY Sonya player to ever place that high in this game), should be enough for all those who don't see a problem to finally wake up. No amount of money is worth it when you already know the game is stacked against you and favors the other player's "Top tier". It only got worse when UltraDavid and Kitana Prime even commented on the single fact that you could speak the commentary into a voice recording, and press play during a SonicFox match. That's how horrible it is that you can call the moves right before it even happens. What the hell is happening to this community and game?

At this point, the overall consensus in this community is that MKX isn't a balanced fighting game, character wise or gameplay. The problem is that for whatever reason, we all like to complain and tear down the game, time after time after time. Its like we dont want the few people who look past its flaws and enjoy it for what it is, to do that. We join in on the rhetoric that other communities spread, that NRS doesnt make good games, as if that makes us cooler and accepted by them not realizing its creating a growing cloud of negativity . It happened with MK9, it happened with Injustice, and now its happening with MKX. Thats more of a problem than a finals with 2 Mileenas and 4 Aliens.