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The Zoning Academy (Mortal Kombat X Edition)

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Very true. I was basing my cybernetic placing on how well I have done with it. Perhaps it's just the opponents I'm against ?

M2dave, anyone your looking forward to in kp2? perhaps an insane zoner might hopefully come out. You never know I guess
Your opponents just don't know the matchup. Cybernetic knives on block are so negative that most characters get a free counter projectile from full screen (they're -11 point black lol they got nerfed).
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Less damage scaling on DB1 and 2+4 MB strings, more damage on knife toss and maybe faster startup on B2.
It'd be nice if he got a new string off of B1 like a B134 or something so his meter build and stagger pressure is better.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Summoner Quan Chi and HQT Predator are the two best zoning characters. Then zoning becomes match up dependent and is a toss up between Royal Storm Kitana, Bone Shaper Shinnok, and Aftershock / Crystalline Tremor.

Cybernetic Kano's and Mournful Kitana's zoning does very poor damage. They cannot be top 5. Cybernetic Kano, in particular, is similar to Cyborg. Nonexistent offense and mediocre damage output.

I should repeat that zoning in this game is crippled by the run button. Unless the zoning leads to offense or lots of damage, it is irrelevant at a high level.
Makes a lot of sense and Summoner/HQT are surely above and beyond the rest. I can definitely get behind this logic.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Sektor might provide some legit zoning. I'll check him out Day 1.
Oh yeah triborg. I'm hoping Bo has some buttony pressure. Not dumb run cancel pressure but more frame trap like.

Triborg will probably have one cancel pressure, a heavy mixup one, and a zoner.

Scared of what they'll do to leatherface.

I hope alien doesn't fulfill a playstyle I want. I might actually buy it.
 

gibster13

A fan of fans
I want bo rai cho to places vomit and fart orbs like kan ra from killer instinct and that arnt utter shit like mos raiden.
 

gibster13

A fan of fans
I want bo rai cho to places vomit and fart orbs like kan ra from killer instinct and that arnt utter shit like mos raiden.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Oh yeah triborg. I'm hoping Bo has some buttony pressure. Not dumb run cancel pressure but more frame trap like.

Triborg will probably have one cancel pressure, a heavy mixup one, and a zoner.

Scared of what they'll do to leatherface.

I hope alien doesn't fulfill a playstyle I want. I might actually buy it.
You have the right idea requesting offense alongside zoning.

Zoning is relevant but limited in this game for the following five reasons.

1. In Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice, you had to dash multiple times to approach characters like Freddy, Kenshi, Sinestro, and Zod. In Mortal Kombat X, you run once or twice and you have successfully closed the gap between you and your opponent.

2. Stages are generally shorter than they were in Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice.

3. The wall carries in Mortal Kombat X make Tekken players envious. Combos may carry the opponent anywhere from half screen to 3/4th of the screen. Sometimes the combos even end in long knockdowns, which allows you to run in and farther carry the opponent to the corner.

4. Injustice had some long range jumping attacks, but Mortal Kombat X takes long range to another whole level. See Kotal Kahn's j.1, Kung Lao's j.2, and Sonya's j.1.

5. Zoning and defensive options have been crippled while offensive options have been severely buffed. You cannot wake up without armor. Half the stamina bar is required for a backdash that has far less invincibility frames than Injustice's backdash. Block break is a joke. Mortal Kombat X has been out for eight months, and I can count on one hand how many times I have seen this feature being utilized in tournaments. Aside from Kitana's aerial fans, aerial fireballs have horrendous landing recovery frames.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Zoning is relevant but limited in this game for the following five reasons.

1. In Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice, you had to dash multiple times to approach characters like Freddy, Kenshi, Sinestro, and Zod. In Mortal Kombat X, you run once or twice and you have successfully closed the gap between you and your opponent.
3. The wall carries in Mortal Kombat X make Tekken players envious.
5. Zoning and defensive options have been crippled while offensive options have been severely buffed. You cannot wake up without armor. Half the stamina bar is required for a backdash that has far less invincibility frames than Injustice's backdash. Block break is a joke. Mortal Kombat X has been out for eight months, and I can count on one hand how many times I have seen this feature being utilized in tournaments. Aside from Kitana's aerial fans, aerial fireballs have horrendous landing recovery frames.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the entire post, but these 3 here are my top 3 reasons why it's like this. It's way too easy to "run in" compared to what the zoning tools offer most characters. The wall carry is just some unseen levels of stupid. And every offensive option was buffed while every defensive option was nerfed.

In this game as has been said, outside of certain specific MUs, the best zoning left after all of this is zoning that sets up offense. I wish there was that "pure zoning" aspect that characters in MK9 and Injustice brought but they seem hell bent on killing it off. Kenshi is the prime example of their opinion of zoning in MKX. Fingers crossed for some KP2 zoning buffs or a Sektor that can but I'm very skeptical.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
You have the right idea requesting offense alongside zoning.

Zoning is relevant but limited in this game for the following five reasons.

1. In Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice, you had to dash multiple times to approach characters like Freddy, Kenshi, Sinestro, and Zod. In Mortal Kombat X, you run once or twice and you have successfully closed the gap between you and your opponent.

2. Stages are generally shorter than they were in Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice.

3. The wall carries in Mortal Kombat X make Tekken players envious. Combos may carry the opponent anywhere from half screen to 3/4th of the screen. Sometimes the combos even end in long knockdowns, which allows you to run in and farther carry the opponent to the corner.

4. Injustice had some long range jumping attacks, but Mortal Kombat X takes long range to another whole level. See Kotal Kahn's j.1, Kung Lao's j.2, and Sonya's j.1.

5. Zoning and defensive options have been crippled while offensive options have been severely buffed. You cannot wake up without armor. Half the stamina bar is required for a backdash that has far less invincibility frames than Injustice's backdash. Block break is a joke. Mortal Kombat X has been out for eight months, and I can count on one hand how many times I have seen this feature being utilized in tournaments. Aside from Kitana's aerial fans, aerial fireballs have horrendous landing recovery frames.
5. Zoning and defensive options have been crippled while offensive options have been severely buffed. You cannot wake up without armor. Half the stamina bar is required for a backdash that has far less invincibility frames than Injustice's backdash. Block break is a joke. Mortal Kombat X has been out for eight months, and I can count on one hand how many times I have seen this feature being utilized in tournaments. Aside from Kitana's aerial fans, aerial fireballs have horrendous landing recovery frames.
I agree with the entire post, but these 3 here are my top 3 reasons why it's like this. It's way too easy to "run in" compared to what the zoning tools offer most characters. The wall carry is just some unseen levels of stupid. And every offensive option was buffed while every defensive option was nerfed.

In this game as has been said, outside of certain specific MUs, the best zoning left after all of this is zoning that sets up offense. I wish there was that "pure zoning" aspect that characters in MK9 and Injustice brought but they seem hell bent on killing it off. Kenshi is the prime example of their opinion of zoning in MKX. Fingers crossed for some KP2 zoning buffs or a Sektor that can but I'm very skeptical.[/QUOTE]
Actual Zoning in this game is nonexistent. If someone "zones" it's because they are facing a character that has trouble with projectiles or they just don't feel like rushing down. Dave said it himself. Only 2 characters can just zone. 2 out of 29 characters. Everyone else might and if they can, I bet they have a better time rushing down.

I think a major reason is NRS's major flaw in the way they design characters. There's proof they can design good offense. They made characters with high/low mixups, safe string characters, + frames block stun characters. But any character that takes a more defensive approach: Kitana, Kenshi, Displacer and MoS Raiden, Not Kobu Jutsu Tanya, Kotal, Shinnok, Predator, Quan come out busted. Either they are too good (Tanya, Quan, Predator) or too bad (Kitana, Kenshi, Shinnok). It's because they have this crazy idea of how to make a character. NRS zoning isn't actually zoning. It's suppressing fire, it's smothering your opponent in a hail of projectiles. I also count it as a design flaw when a character's zoning is supposed to be covered by one or two set projectiles (Predator has 1 laser. Just in 3 different directions. Quan has 1 skull and 1 rune with 3 different directions.) I believe if you try to make one projectile cover most of a zoner needs you're going to have to scale them back somehow (Quan gets great zoning and dumb 50/50, so he gets bad armor unless you give up the more powerful zoning for warlock. Predator doesn't follow this and has better safer mixups, long range but slow armor, and probably the best projectile move ever created. How many characters can ex a move on wakeup without armor and have it be a viable strategy?) These character's could be so much more interesting but NRS discards interesting for powerful characters.

To make matters worse they make these powerful characters then try to balance them month by month. I think DS was the closes to an interesting and viable zoner they made. Different level gun shots and a slower mid hitting move couple with Nice AAs and a ok mixup game to keep up in damage. Then they nerf it. Now you can see in MKx it seems like they were too scared to make competent zoners. But instead of retooling characters like Kenshi or Kitana, they still equip them with all encompassing moves like tele push which sends your opponent full screen away every time they fuck up. And instant air fans, a move that can be done consistently enough to slow your opponent to a crawl and lead to 40%+ damage.

IMO, if you want there to be actual zoners that can keep up with the rushdown, you need NRS to make sensible interesting characters. Maybe Maybe Quan doesn't need rune to instantly pop underneath you, catch your jump AND send you full screen again. Raiden's superman doesn't need to carry to the corner from half stage. I actually have a dream MoS Raiden that doesn't have a high/low mixup, quicker mid hitting fireball that can be stopped, safe on block orb cancels, normals that cover different angles and serve specific purposes, and an actual trap that traps. But that's a whole different post. Talking about TEKKEN, TEKKEN gives everyone wakeup and movement options so you at least have an answer somewhere. NRS needs to go back to drawing and really rethink some design decisions. Hopefully Injustice is less homogeneous and less extreme with what is considered good. I don't want to see characters whipping out meter or stamina cancels to get more guaranteed chances at mixups and I don't want to see instant air zod balls, or a match slowed to a crawl from one move from fullscreen.

Signed, A rushdown zealot infatuated with zoning.
 

REO

Undead
I love Predator but he has probably the worst back walk I've ever seen in any MK game I've played. His back walk has horrendous start up frames, and then when he reaches his walking peak, it's still atrocious. Predator's backwalk reaks of Injustice movement and it's something I'll always despise. His backdash also has very bad recovery.

I think Predator was soley created to not go backwards. NRS design towards him seems to solidify that the more and more I play him. Which I'm fine with since it seems to be a balance decision.

Predator also has the biggest hurtbox in the game due to the character's model. Sometimes it's very difficult to jump over something or be evasive without getting clipped. He has trouble dealing with cross-up jumps and abusable jump ins in general. No real way to consistently punish and discourage jumpers without taking big risks in the neutral game or giving up ground.
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
I love Predator but he has probably the worst back walk I've ever seen in any MK game I've played. His back walk has horrendous start up frames, and then when he reaches his walking peak, it's still atrocious. Predator's backwalk reaks of Injustice movement and it's something I'll always despise. His backdash also has very bad recovery.

I think Predator was soley created to not go backwards. NRS design towards him seems to solidify that the more and more I play him. Which I'm fine with since it seems to be a balance decision.

Predator also has the biggest hurtbox in the game due to the character's model. Sometimes it's very difficult to jump over something or be evasive without getting clipped. He has trouble dealing with cross-up jumps and abusable jump ins in general. No real way to consistently punish and discourage jumpers without taking big risks in the neutral game or giving up ground.
Lately I've been playing predator and I've noticed that about his hurtbox as well. Normally I anti air cross up w d3 or stand 1 although it's pretty tough to land consistently.

His d2 is good for jump ins, although it's a bit slow on start up.

What variation have you been using REO? I've been enjoying Hunter myself.