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General/Other - Dualist Dualist Liu Kang Kommunity Project: Proposed Dualist Buffs

GreatKungLao

LiuTana


Dear NetherRealm Studios, first of all we would like to thank you for creating one of the most unique variation in Mortal Kombat X for out favorite champion of Mortal Kombat - Liu Kang. But even though this variation is interesting and beautiful in its gameplay, there is still some work that needs to be done with Dualist in order to make it viable and be seen more often on tournaments, because right now it loses in comparison with Flame Fist and Dragon's Fire, while we really want Dualist to become equal to those two or even better if possible, so that finally all three variations had a reason to be used.

For this thread Dualist Liu Kang Community have gathered a list of buffs and fixes that this variation needs in order to become strong as Earthrealm's hero should be. Please, take some notes from it for future patches, because Dualist needs it.


General buffs and fixes (bugs, glitches, etc.):
  • Red Orbs can create a frame gap when they explode. For example, if Liu Kang is doing F213 and the red orb explodes between the F2(1), it creates a frame gap in the string which you can punish.
  • Dragon Roar whiffs some ducking characters when they low profile with some normals. This should not be happening, since this is probably the best reversal/wake up Liu Kang has in general.
  • Fix the bug that causes red orbs explode hitting interactables at the corner of Kuatan Jungle (left corner), Sky Temple (right corner) and and Lin Kuei Temple (left corner). Also take a loot at Refugee Kamp (left corner) and Quan Chi's Fortress (right corner), though they are not mentioned in the videos below, but are discovered to have same issue. In the right corner of Quan Chi's Fortress low red orbs hit an invisible wall, while in the left corner of Refugee Kamp red orbs hit interactle club. How to fix: allow red orbs fly through interactables. Red orbs should hit Sub-Zero's ice clone still.
  • Another problem is red orbs been out of range during certain corner setups, which can be fixed by increasing hurt box of red orbs.
  • Here are two videos adressing few problems from above that have to be fixed:

Light Side buffs:
  • Healing. Make it heal 1% while holding and 3% on release of the special. This needs to be done simply because the current pay off is not equal to the risk that Liu Kang puts himself in while holding healing animation that leaves him completely vulnerable. He needs to heal more health.
  • Remove pushback of EX solar flame on block or make the pushback less.
Dark Side buffs:
  • Red orbs should have bigger hurt box.
  • Liu Kang should be able to charge Dark damage buff further if he stopped charging at level 1 or level 2.
  • Damage buff should not disappear after getting hit if you have level 1 and level 2 charged, maybe even level 3 because it is a high risk to charge it without decent pay off after. Right now getting level 3 and sometimes even level 2 safe in real match with high level gameplay opponent is pretty much impossible and even if you did, it goes away with a simple poke or grab, which brings us to conlusion that disappearance of Dark charge after getting hit should be gone. A lot of characters have their damage buff remain after getting a hit and considering that Liu Kang is the only one who have to charge it while in completely vulnerable position, it must not disappear after getting hit. Kotal Kahn can even combo into damage buff totem and it doesn't disappear on hit.
  • Dualist Liu Kang should be able to cancel his combos into special move that stops red orbs after he throws EX red orb, so that option won't be free for it's strength of giving plus frames on block or new combo possibilities on hit.
  • Air red orbs should have less recovery by 15 frames.
 
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The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
I don't really play Dualist much, but wouldn't these buffs just make his pressure similar, or even better, than DF without addressing any of his weaknesses?
 

GreatKungLao

LiuTana
I don't really play Dualist much, but wouldn't these buffs just make his pressure similar, or even better, than DF without addressing any of his weaknesses?
Nah, in DF he can do F213 three times with FBRC and take much more chip and meter as a result. Before the latest patch Dualist could do true block strings using F213 DD1 just once per try, DD1 has a good cool down. And his true block string after F213 DD1 was only F123, with B12 he was able to break the coming armor after F213 DD1, but that wasn't true block string. Dualist still wouldn't have the damage that Dragon's Fire can get, especially thanks to MB bicycle kicks and Dark damage buff disappears after DD1, so... Dualist just won't be better than DF with these buffs. Maybe other Dualist players think otherwise.
 

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
General buffs:
  • Bring old block stun of F213 specifically for Dualist variation. He needs to have true block strings after F213 DD1 like before.
I disagree because it would be very weird to bring back the old bluck stun of F2,1,3 only for Dualist.

Light Side buffs:
  • Healing. Make it heal 0.50% while holding and 3% on release of the special. EX version that heals 1.5% and 5% on release would be appreciated. EX version should have an armor for one hit. Give healing a faster startup and recovery.
0.50% still would be slow. 1% while holding and 3% on release of the special. I don't know about an EX version of it.
I disagree about faster startup and recovery because Dualist would have very good cancels. Liu Kang already has very good cancels in Dragon's Fire.
I will agree about faster startup and recovery If the healing cancel be removed.

Remove pushback of EX solar flame on block or make the pushback less.
I agree.

Dark Side buffs:
  • EX red orbs should have bigger block stun, close to EX solar flame, maybe +10 on block.
I don't agree about it.

Damage buff should not disappear after getting hit if you have level 1 and level 2 charged. This special move should have EX version for instant level 3 charge. The charge itself should be a bit faster than it is. Liu Kang should be able to charge further if he stopped charging at level 1 or level 2.
Yeah, level 1, 2 and 3 should not disappear after getting hit. I don't know about an EX version of it. I agree about it be a bit faster than it is and Liu Kang should be able to charge further if he stopped charging at level 1 or level 2.

Dualist Liu Kang should be able to cancel his combos into special move that stops red orbs.
I disagree because it would be BROKEN. F2,1,3 ~ stop red orb = +20 on block? lol :p

Please, for the love of God, fix the bug that causes red orbs explode hitting interactables at the corner of some arenas. (the list of stages and video will be added later).
Yeah, this bug still is in the game :mad:

Liu Kang should have red orbs of different speeds. If you do BF1 and hold B, then the red orb will be flying slower, do BF1 and hold F then red orb fly faster, do BF1 without holding B or F and red orb fly normal.
Good ideia. I agree.

should something else be added here?
Dualist has one more bug: red orbs can create a frame gap when they explode. For example, if I'm doing F2,1,3 and the orb explodes between the F2,(1), it creates a frame gap in the string which you can punish.

Other buffs:

1 - Red orbs should have less recovery: -5 recovery for regular orb because it has an EX version, -5 recovery for low orb because it is low, and -15 recovery for air orb because air orb still is useless.

2 - Red orbs should to starts slightly closer to Liu Kang because sometimes when Liu Kang makes a setup (especially in the corner), the orb is a little bit far from the oponent, then Liu Kang loses the setup.
I don't know if I'm explaining it right, but because of this, sometimes Liu Kang loses his setups. It happens a lot of times with the low orbs.

3 - Instead red orbs be more plus on block, red orbs should has bigger hitbox.
 
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GreatKungLao

LiuTana
F2,1,3 - 11 startup frames + 2 active frames + 36 recovery frames = 49 frames - 19 cancel frames = 30 frames - 6 block adv frames = 24 frames - 1 startup frame of DD1 (Dark Metamorphosis) = +23 frames on block. lol. It would be VERY BROKEN! :p
It's not like he will be doing it for free and all the time, besides they have to give him something to compensate true blockstrings they took from Dualist by nerfing F213. So F213 DB1 into true blockstrings would be nice, besides, I'm suggesting that he is going to be able to cancel normals into special that stops red orbs only if there is a red orb flying on screen, not without it.

Fixed first post.
 

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
It's not like he will be doing it for free and all the time, besides they have to give him something to compensate true blockstrings they took from Dualist by nerfing F213. So F213 DB1 into true blockstrings would be nice, besides, I'm suggesting that he is going to be able to cancel normals into special that stops red orbs only if there is a red orb flying on screen, not without it.
I know that it's not like he will be doing it for free all the time, but it is +23 and meteless. This is not fair at all. All +20 frames in the game are gone and a lot of +20 frames were spending 1 bar - Tempest's EX hat, Shinnok's hell sparks MB, etc.

Dualist didn't has true blockstringS from F2,1,3. He had just ONE true blockstring that it was F2,1,3 ~ DD1 (+7) ~ F1(6f),2,3.

Fixed first post.
Thanks :D
 

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
With each lvl of charged darkness he should get health back when he switches to light stance based on the lvl charged.... lvl one 3% lvl two 5% lvl three 7% since the dmg buff doesn't carry over to light stance. @GreatKungLao thoughts?
 

GreatKungLao

LiuTana
I know that it's not like he will be doing it for free all the time, but it is +23 and meteless. This is not fair at all. All +20 frames in the game are gone and a lot of +20 frames were spending 1 bar - Tempest's EX hat, Shinnok's hell sparks MB, etc.
How about allowing Liu Kang to cancel into stop if he throws EX red orb?

I disagree with the speeds on the orb. I'd rather them just have the normal speed they have now
You mean speed only or recovery part as well?

Fixed first post.
 
  • Dualist has a bug where red orbs can create a frame gap when they explode. For example, if Liu Kang is doing F2,1,3 and the red orb explodes between the F2,(1), it creates a frame gap in the string which you can reversal through.
Hey guys, I don't think this is a bug. If it explodes during f2, it might be that the frame gap between "f2 - 1" + the recovery of f2 is greater than(">") the frame adv of the orb.
Its like the same deal with doing an orb setup. Once you set up an orb and you do b34(second hit) to db2. If you time the b34 well, when the db2 is blocked you get plus frames, if you rush the b34 you get a gap before the orb explodes, if you delay your b34 too much your db2 would be super minus.
 

GreatKungLao

LiuTana
Hey guys, I don't think this is a bug. If it explodes during f2, it might be that the frame gap between "f2 - 1" + the recovery of f2 is greater than(">") the frame adv of the orb.
Its like the same deal with doing an orb setup. Once you set up an orb and you do b34(second hit) to db2. If you time the b34 well, when the db2 is blocked you get plus frames, if you rush the b34 you get a gap before the orb explodes, if you delay your b34 too much your db2 would be super minus.
Also, I tried to do this "gap" in practice and AI makes a reversal 1 time out of 10, so this gap is not lethal problem and most likely will never affect the match, because chances of this to actually happen are 1 to billion in my opinion.

Fixed.

Anything else that needs to be added? (I'm rendering video about red orbs hitting interactables right now, so it will be added soon enough).
 

GreatKungLao

LiuTana
With each lvl of charged darkness he should get health back when he switches to light stance based on the lvl charged.... lvl one 3% lvl two 5% lvl three 7% since the dmg buff doesn't carry over to light stance. @GreatKungLao thoughts?
I think it won't be necesarry if healing in light stance will be buffed, although Kotal Kahn has two different ways of healing in Sun God as well. I will add it to the list, let it for NRS to decide about the idea.
 

PapaRegadetho

All hail emperor Liucifer Kang!
I think I'd be happy if they just added a specific move to Dualist, maybe an overhead starter. Yes, I'm not totally sold for the idea to make him a 50/50 variation, but seriously, none of the buffs will ever happen. You know why? Because people are louder when it comes to nerfs than buffs.
 

PapaRegadetho

All hail emperor Liucifer Kang!
I agree on everything except for the health gain after the dark charge buff, there should be some sacrifice for switching to light stance.
 

SylverRye

Official Loop Kang Main
I know that it's not like he will be doing it for free all the time, but it is +23 and meteless. This is not fair at all. All +20 frames in the game are gone and a lot of +20 frames were spending 1 bar - Tempest's EX hat, Shinnok's hell sparks MB, etc.

Dualist didn't has true blockstringS from F2,1,3. He had just ONE true blockstring that it was F2,1,3 ~ DD1 (+7) ~ F1(6f),2,3.



Thanks :D
All +20 frames in the game are gone? I advise you to go look up johnny cages cancel data and then come back and say that lol. I think +20 anything is ridiculous. Hell +10 on block is silly too. But imo some of these changes need to happen. I do agree with you though.
 

Qhris

Noob
I still feel that he should be able to start in his opposite stance from the character select screen. For example, instead of pressing 3 to select his dualist variation, you press start / options and he starts in dark stance by default.
 
About the healing, don't you think 1.00% while holding is too much? That thing heals fast, the only reason it looks slow is because its 0.03. I agree with 0.50 or 0.75 and I don't really care how much it is when u release it. lol.

Also am not sure if the orb recovery would make a difference really.

And what do you mean by
"
  • Dualist Liu Kang should be able to cancel his combos into special move that stops red orbs after he throws EX red orb.
"
 

GreatKungLao

LiuTana
About the healing, don't you think 1.00% while holding is too much? That thing heals fast, the only reason it looks slow is because its 0.03. I agree with 0.50 or 0.75 and I don't really care how much it is when u release it. lol.

Also am not sure if the orb recovery would make a difference really.

And what do you mean by
"
  • Dualist Liu Kang should be able to cancel his combos into special move that stops red orbs after he throws EX red orb.
"
I think 1% is a fair deal considering how much of a vulnerable position healing puts you in. You can't move, block or attack, so you won't be able to heal for too long anyway in a real match, especially since every character has a projectile.

What I mean by that buff is that if, for example, you threw EX red orb from the end of the screen, run towards you opponent, hit him with a combo on block and cancel this combo in special that stops the orbs (which is DB1) for plus frames and further pressure, especially if you cancel into stop special when red orb fly through the opponent at the moment. Or you can throw EX red orb during pressure, but don't stop and continue hit him on block and cancel another string into stop special. Right now you can't cancel anything into DB1.