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Match-Up Discussion - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage Matchup Thread

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
I thought that 114 hitbox issue was patched. Was it not?
Yeah but its a high and still the first or second hit just go over you sometimes. Its a really stupid option and I was only putting it there because if you get stuck in the sunstone loops against kotal you need meter or a lucky whiff.

@Qwark28 - can meterless cage low profile any of the sunstone loops to get out or is it quan town?
 
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smokey

EX Ovi should launch
So if you try get under the b1 you get hit and cages hitbox isnt that small so i guess just take the 4 and hope kotal is bad at timing his oki so you can get some barz.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Are people talking about EX Sunstone or regular Sunstone? Isn't regular Sunstone pretty slow to be used in pressure? EX being a loop isn't anything new I think
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Are people talking about EX Sunstone or regular Sunstone? Isn't regular Sunstone pretty slow to be used in pressure? EX being a loop isn't anything new I think
I was talking about EX loops which isnt new but when discussing Kotal matchup is something to mention.
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
If anyone has any inputs about the Liu Kang matchup (against every variation) I would appreciate your help: after playing many many games against him I think that A-List loses 4-6 vs Dualist, 3-7 or worse vs Flame Fist and Dragon Fire; I want to be optimistic but I just don't see how this match can be won except for Liu Kang mistakes.

If you have some high level videos regarding this matchup, I would like to watch them too. Thanks
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
If anyone has any inputs about the Liu Kang matchup (against every variation) I would appreciate your help: after playing many many games against him I think that A-List loses 4-6 vs Dualist, 3-7 or worse vs Flame Fist and Dragon Fire; I want to be optimistic but I just don't see how this match can be won except for Liu Kang mistakes.

If you have some high level videos regarding this matchup, I would like to watch them too. Thanks
Whoa, why would you think that? I feel if you're going to say he has a 3-7 you need some evidence as such. The matches feel at least close to even for me. Against Flame Fist, keep in mind you JC is one of the few characters that can duck the last hit of windmill punch. So you can choose to block the last hit or not, the guess is always in your hands.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
Whoa, why would you think that? I feel if you're going to say he has a 3-7 you need some evidence as such. The matches feel at least close to even for me. Against Flame Fist, keep in mind you JC is one of the few characters that can duck the last hit of windmill punch. So you can choose to block the last hit or not, the guess is always in your hands.
Wait Johnny can? I thought the last hit only whiffs on Kitana :D But he doesn't have the ex rising blade to counter everything liu does
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Whoa, why would you think that? I feel if you're going to say he has a 3-7 you need some evidence as such. The matches feel at least close to even for me. Against Flame Fist, keep in mind you JC is one of the few characters that can duck the last hit of windmill punch. So you can choose to block the last hit or not, the guess is always in your hands.
Why would you choose to?

If he can always duck then can't he always punish it?
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
Whoa, why would you think that? I feel if you're going to say he has a 3-7 you need some evidence as such. The matches feel at least close to even for me. Against Flame Fist, keep in mind you JC is one of the few characters that can duck the last hit of windmill punch. So you can choose to block the last hit or not, the guess is always in your hands.
It's not clear evidence, but to me the main problem is that JC gets outzoned heavily and there is not much he can do about it:

- Forceball is useless from every distance except full screen. Even slightly closer than full screen and Low Fireball low profiles our projectile.
- Using Eclipse Kick is a risk, it gets low profiled as well if not timed when Liu Kang is recovering. It also doesn't reach fullscreen, so we have to get a little bit closer before using it.
- His fireballs dictate the match from start to finish. You can't jump a single one, or Liu will hit you with the next fireball before reaching the ground...or he will anti air with a better punish. He decides when and if to approach, you don't control anything. I feel that reaching him with some stamina for pressure and without jumping is next to impossible, it can only happen if he makes mistakes. He also builds incredible amout of meter both fullscreen and upclose, and that surely doesn't help....

On close combat, it would feel even if it wasn't for his d3. From my experience It low profiles even f3 at max range, it beats every jump in, it beats 1 AND 11 AND 12. If you block it, Liu Kang throws out whatever he wants and I can do nothing about it, except armor. Cage backdash sucks, it's risky and Liu Kang can still get him with many moves. Also, using half stamina is already super bad for A-List when he is upclose.

If you have any videos of your Cage fighting some competent Liu Kang, I would gladly watch them. This undoubtely is the matchup in which I have most difficulties

Oh you guys are finally seeing that kotal kahn rapes cage?
I don't think so, never had problems against Kotal
 
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IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I think JC beats Kotal it's so easy to keep him out, you just need to chill your comfortable offence game against Kital
 

mrKrucifix

Just call me Kruce
I don't think Kang v Cage is that bad. Annoying, yes, but not bad. Other than the fact that you're pretty much forced to take a ton of chip damage, you're able to punish or handle a lot of Kang's options.

A lot of times, I'll just chill barely outside his normal's range, and react to what he decides to go for. You can low profile most things he can throw out at that range (except for Low Fire, but the damage is minimal, and it's punishable on block, so if you're close enough they'll hesitate wanting to throw it out). Even tho it's difficult to punish Kang on block, I found its much easier to punish him on whiff. His advancing normals/strings don't move forward as quickly as Cage walks backward, so many times I can get the F3 punish for a whiffed string.

On Kang's wake up, I'll usually take a step or two back and use a D4. It'll make most of his armored reversals whiff and you can punish. Take the step back in case he tries to wake up grab.

On a read, you can punish both fireballs with a jump in. You can't do it on reaction up close because of Johnny's jump speed, but you get a free combo if read correctly.

Also, I'm not sure if the exact frame data, but I've been able to D1 out of Kang pressure after his D3 with mixed results. It either trades for Kang F44 or one of our execution is inconsistent.

This is a match up I've played a lot using all variations of Johnny, vs all variations of Kang. Despite FF having the parry, I think DF is the hardest to deal with. I'd also suggest A-List so you can get a full combo off of F3 without using meter. Stunt Double can work too if you're conscience with your doubles.

If this match up is disadvantageous at all, it's no worse than a 4-6. I think it's a solid 5-5 tho, IMO.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Anyone have any XP with Buzzsaw? I have been told that Cage wont ever get in by @A F0xy Grampa and with the new AA buffs you cant hope to get a lucky jump over a low hat. Supposedly Cage doesnt EVER get in in this matchup without obvious EX Shadowkick, though ive not really had problems with zoning ever with any characters in MKX. Stunt double is my go-to but any insight would be nice, if anyone has the experience how bad actually is it? @Phosferrax do you play this matchup with Foxy?
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
Anyone have any XP with Buzzsaw? I have been told that Cage wont ever get in by @A F0xy Grampa and with the new AA buffs you cant hope to get a lucky jump over a low hat. Supposedly Cage doesnt EVER get in in this matchup without obvious EX Shadowkick, though ive not really had problems with zoning ever with any characters in MKX. Stunt double is my go-to but any insight would be nice, if anyone has the experience how bad actually is it? @Phosferrax do you play this matchup with Foxy?
I played it a bit against foxy before the patch, if he agrees I can play some other games against him and upload them here.

To me the matchup feels similar to the Liu Kang one. You get wrecked from fullscreen because of the fast low projectile that forces you to jump. Both characters can anti air all of Cage jump ins (Kung Lao has a very easy time at that), and you are back full screen struggling.
From upclose looks pretty even vs Buzzsaw
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
just a mu specific thing ive known about for a while but havnt seen anyone mention so thought id share
vs cage if nutpunch trades with overhead rock drop, cage gets a combo rather than tremor being able to block the next normal.
with overhead lava drop link is much tighter but still possible, ex overhead rock drop midscreen is only really situation cage cant get the combo
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
just a mu specific thing ive known about for a while but havnt seen anyone mention so thought id share
vs cage if nutpunch trades with overhead rock drop, cage gets a combo rather than tremor being able to block the next normal.
with overhead lava drop link is much tighter but still possible, ex overhead rock drop midscreen is only really situation cage cant get the combo
yeah this is known, nutpunch is active for awhile and sometimes if you were to trade with f3, he can recover and hit another f3 for it to combo.