General/Other - Liu Kang What's Liu Kang missing to be top tier?

[Derptile]

Yeah I was just using that as an example to show people knew about this a long time ago. It just seems like people are just realizing this is in the game even though I know people knew about it already.

Also in the corner Lui Kang can convert f213 fbc into a combo if the other player tries to eat the last hit of the string so he does have options to deal with that without burning meter.

Yeah the corner conversions have been known for a while also, the talking point back then was that compared to prepatch D'vorah and Scorpion his F213 FBRC midscreen wasn't as good as theirs, I guess doing F21 FBRC for a guessing game was too hard for those people. Doesn't really matter anyways since F44 FBRC is +10, so if you can land 1 frame links(which you should if you play Dragon's Fire) then you can just Loop that instead and the opponent will never get knocked back.

 

[Zabru]

Yeah the corner conversions have been known for a while also, the talking point back then was that compared to prepatch D'vorah and Scorpion his F213 FBRC midscreen wasn't as good as theirs, I guess doing F21 FBRC for a guessing game was too hard for those people. Doesn't really matter anyways since F44 FBRC is +10, so if you can land 1 frame links(which you should if you play Dragon's Fire) then you can just Loop that instead and the opponent will never get knocked back.

Why should I be able to land 1 frame links if I wanna play dragon fire and what does that have to do with FBRC?

 

[Derptile]

Why should I be able to land 1 frame links if I wanna play dragon fire and what does that have to do with FBRC?

The main reason why Dragon's Fire is good IMO is F44 FBRC, it's a decent range 10 frame double hitting string(that can armor break in correct situations) that is +10 on block, can jail the opponent into another F44 FBRC, and do combos for 40% one bar midscreen and 40% no bar corner.
But in order to do all this you must be able to master linking F44 FBRC F44, it only jails if you execute it on frame otherwise your opponent can backdash and whiff punish. It's the same deal with F44 FBRC F44 bicycle kicks, it's definitely a 1-2 frame link.

And then there are things like doing Insta-air fireballs, punishing things with F12, and a couple of other thing that I didn't mention.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Yeah the corner conversions have been known for a while also, the talking point back then was that compared to prepatch D'vorah and Scorpion his F213 FBRC midscreen wasn't as good as theirs, I guess doing F21 FBRC for a guessing game was too hard for those people. Doesn't really matter anyways since F44 FBRC is +10, so if you can land 1 frame links(which you should if you play Dragon's Fire) then you can just Loop that instead and the opponent will never get knocked back.

If you want 1 frame links play dualist and do b12 dd1 f4

@STRYKIE easy partner. People talk like letting go on the last hit of f213 is a bad idea. In fact it's a great idea! Mid screen the pressure ends. Liu has to run up to continue pressure and risks a tech roll, wake up attack, jump over, etc. it's all the opponent needs to reset the neutral or start their own pressure.

Since he has to run up, his stamina is gone and RC are not possible. If Liu has no stamina he has to spend meter for frame advantage but is only +2. In the corner I can see the issue but mid screen Liu has nothing to convert if they take the hit.

See...the weakness in DF is fairly obvious in that his godlike frame advantage is only possible with stamina. If you take the last hit of f213 on the first rep, he builds virtually no meter and has to burn ALL his stamina to stay on you with the risk of getting comboed without the ability to break. Even if he does start block pressure, he is +2...DF is the best Liu variation but a smart player can counter your basic gameplan, leaving you to strictly zone and simplify you pressure.

It's when Liu starts doing f21 RC (not that +) where the fun begins. It goes the opponent a window to get out but it also may leave them open to f44.

Now if you can do f44 RC over and over God bless you. People WILL ALWAYS drop 1 frame links. Good day

 

[Derptile]

If you want 1 frame links play dualist and do b12 dd1 f4

@STRYKIE easy partner. People talk like letting go on the last hit of f213 is a bad idea. In fact it's a great idea! Mid screen the pressure ends. Liu has to run up to continue pressure and risks a tech roll, wake up attack, jump over, etc. it's all the opponent needs to reset the neutral or start their own pressure.

Since he has to run up, his stamina is gone and RC are not possible. If Liu has no stamina he has to spend meter for frame advantage but is only +2. In the corner I can see the issue but mid screen Liu has nothing to convert if they take the hit.

See...the weakness in DF is fairly obvious in that his godlike frame advantage is only possible with stamina. If you take the last hit of f213 on the first rep, he builds virtually no meter and has to burn ALL his stamina to stay on you with the risk of getting comboed without the ability to break. Even if he does start block pressure, he is +2...DF is the best Liu variation but a smart player can counter your basic gameplan, leaving you to strictly zone and simplify you pressure.

It's when Liu starts doing f21 RC (not that +) where the fun begins. It goes the opponent a window to get out but it also may leave them open to f44.

Now if you can do f44 RC over and over God bless you. People WILL ALWAYS drop 1 frame links. Good day

Getting hit by 3 in F213 sounds fine and it is a VERY good solution if you're dealing with an aggressive Dragon's Fire player. But the thing most people forget is that his zoning is also very good with low fireball and IAFB, it's not MK9 kabal or Quan Chi level's of good but against most of the cast it is definitely a strong tool. He'll also build meter in the process of doing so and when he get's his bar he can Flying kick MB to get in at +2.

I was trying how low I could do IAFB on the PC version today and I saw Flame Fist going to levels of absolute stupidity low, Dragon's Fire not so much but it's still pretty good.

Also, LMAO dualist with negative Stance changes. DRAGON'S FIRE MASTERRACE.

 

[STRYKIE]

Damn bro, I didn't say it was justified in being nerfed. I was just thinking through someone like Paulo's perspective when he nerfed it. I already said I would be fine with scorpion getting them back so calm your tits you fukb0i.

Also I can confirm that I was the one to tell people to stay quiet about Roooo kang so he wouldn't get nerfed. But that cat's out of the bag I suppose.

EDIT: Here we are

I didn't say you did, and I'm not fussed about Scorpion's old 214 FBRC. My issue is the narrative that Dragon's Fire Liu Kang is some kind of watered down pre-patch Hellfire Scorpion when Dragon's Fire's FBRCs have been statistically superior all along.

The cat may as well be let out of the bag instead of taking a fuckboi chance hoping Paulo doesn't notice them and then being left with nothing when he pulls the trigger. That way we can make sure he doesn't completely kill the strings altogether and bring to his attention the variation-wide issues without us having to hold back information.

If you want 1 frame links play dualist and do b12 dd1 f4

@STRYKIE easy partner. People talk like letting go on the last hit of f213 is a bad idea. In fact it's a great idea! Mid screen the pressure ends. Liu has to run up to continue pressure and risks a tech roll, wake up attack, jump over, etc. it's all the opponent needs to reset the neutral or start their own pressure.

Since he has to run up, his stamina is gone and RC are not possible. If Liu has no stamina he has to spend meter for frame advantage but is only +2. In the corner I can see the issue but mid screen Liu has nothing to convert if they take the hit.

See...the weakness in DF is fairly obvious in that his godlike frame advantage is only possible with stamina. If you take the last hit of f213 on the first rep, he builds virtually no meter and has to burn ALL his stamina to stay on you with the risk of getting comboed without the ability to break. Even if he does start block pressure, he is +2...DF is the best Liu variation but a smart player can counter your basic gameplan, leaving you to strictly zone and simplify you pressure.

It's when Liu starts doing f21 RC (not that +) where the fun begins. It goes the opponent a window to get out but it also may leave them open to f44.

Now if you can do f44 RC over and over God bless you. People WILL ALWAYS drop 1 frame links. Good day

My post wasn't supposed to come off as aggressive or narcissistic and I apologize if it did. I just feel as if simply hoping the Dragon's Fire blockstrings aren't nerfed at the cost of leaving his other issues ignored is way too big of a chance to take given what we know about NRS' game patching life cycle.

F44 FBRC F4 on block isn't a 1 frame link by the way, I've been able to jail the F4 after an imperfect FBRC. The frame data I posted was just to demonstrate guaranteed results, I'm sure someone could jail B3 from it if they wanted to.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Getting hit by 3 in F213 sounds fine and it is a VERY good solution if you're dealing with an aggressive Dragon's Fire player. But the thing most people forget is that his zoning is also very good with low fireball and IAFB, it's not MK9 kabal or Quan Chi level's of good but against most of the cast it is definitely a strong tool. He'll also build meter in the process of doing so and when he get's his bar he can Flying kick MB to get in at +2.

I was trying how low I could do IAFB on the PC version today and I saw Flame Fist going to levels of absolute stupidity low, Dragon's Fire not so much but it's still pretty good.

Also, LMAO dualist with negative Stance changes. DRAGON'S FIRE MASTERRACE.

But according to this forum his pressure is "too godlike op and should be nerfed" when it's actually very easily countered. His zoning is 100% fine and good. He is a solid character who imo doesn't need ANY adjustments.

NW forums all over again huh @EMPR_MURK ? Lol

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I didn't say you did, and I'm not fussed about Scorpion's old 214 FBRC. My issue is the narrative that Dragon's Fire Liu Kang is some kind of watered down pre-patch Hellfire Scorpion when Dragon's Fire's FBRCs have been statistically superior all along.

The cat may as well be let out of the bag instead of taking a fuckboi chance hoping Paulo doesn't notice them and then being left with nothing when he pulls the trigger. That way we can make sure he doesn't completely kill the strings altogether and bring to his attention the variation-wide issues without us having to hold back information.



My post wasn't supposed to come off as aggressive or narcissistic and I apologize if it did. I just feel as if simply hoping the Dragon's Fire blockstrings aren't nerfed at the cost of leaving his other issues ignored is way too big of a chance to take given what we know about NRS' game patching life cycle.

F44 FBRC F4 on block isn't a 1 frame link by the way, I've been able to jail the F4 after an imperfect FBRC. The frame data I posted was just to demonstrate guaranteed results, I'm sure someone could jail B3 from it if they wanted to.

Btw, your kidding yourself if you think Paulo doesn't already know more about Liu Kang than all of us and that this forum is the deciding factor for nerfs and buffs.

 

[Lone]

If anyone believes that TYM and it's members don't sway buff or nerfs, they're down right delusional. Game balance is driven by feedback, so I don't know why people are spreading the propaganda that they don't take these opinions/concerns/what have you into consideration. That along with tournament observation. This site is the mecca for competitive MK, after all.

We have a hand in the process, otherwise, why did Kitana receive buffs? Because that section was very vocal, and it has representatives. More so than, say, the Ferra/Torr player base.

Something I've always wanted to say.

 

[Derptile]

If anyone believes that TYM and it's members don't sway buff or nerfs, they're down right delusional. Game balance is driven by feedback, so I don't know why people are spreading the propaganda that they don't take these opinions/concerns/what have you into consideration. That along with tournament observation. This site is the mecca for competitive MK, after all.

We have a hand in the process, otherwise, why did Kitana receive buffs? Because that section was very vocal, and it has representatives. More so than, say, the Ferra/Torr player base.

Something I've always wanted to say.

If TYM is a Mecca then I don't wanna live on this planet anymore.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

If anyone believes that TYM and it's members don't sway buff or nerfs, they're down right delusional. Game balance is driven by feedback, so I don't know why people are spreading the propaganda that they don't take these opinions/concerns/what have you into consideration. That along with tournament observation. This site is the mecca for competitive MK, after all.

We have a hand in the process, otherwise, why did Kitana receive buffs? Because that section was very vocal, and it has representatives. More so than, say, the Ferra/Torr player base.

Something I've always wanted to say.

OMG I'm done. They may read what we write but there are very few people they actually listen to.

Don't kid yourself thinking we have more power than Paulo.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

But according to this forum his pressure is "too godlike op and should be nerfed" when it's actually very easily countered. His zoning is 100% fine and good. He is a solid character who imo doesn't need ANY adjustments.

NW forums all over again huh @EMPR_MURK ? Lol

They just don't understand man lol.

 

[IrishMantis]

So LK A tier yay or nay?

I don't play the char but doesn't matter how good a char is I hate seen a wasted variation especially something as cool as dualist

 

[Derptile]

So LK A tier yay or nay?

I don't play the char but doesn't matter how good a char is I hate seen a wasted variation especially something as cool as dualist

Dualist is decent character and giving him a shot is well worth your time if you have lots and lots (and lots) of patience.

I think this thread has run it's course, so if anyone mod is reading this please close it. @THTB

 

[Lone]

OMG I'm done. They may read what we write but there are very few people they actually listen to.

Don't kid yourself thinking we have more power than Paulo.

Kenshi community, his buffs. You're kidding yourself.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

Dualist is decent character and giving him a shot is well worth your time if you have lots and lots (and lots) of patience.

I think this thread has run it's course, so if anyone mod is reading this please close it.

Lol, my what big EGO you have.

 

[Derptile]

Lol, my what big EGO you have.

Don't see how.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

Don

I think this thread has run it's course, so if anyone mod is reading this please close it.

't see how.

I was referring to the fact that you have decided single-handedly that this thread which is still very much alive had run its course.

My quoting skills are subpar though

 

[Ares_Supreme]

But according to this forum his pressure is "too godlike op and should be nerfed" when it's actually very easily countered. His zoning is 100% fine and good. He is a solid character who imo doesn't need ANY adjustments.

NW forums all over again huh @EMPR_MURK ? Lol

My biggest issue is that this game is full of crazy nonsense that LK players have to deal with daily, so why not deal with our "OP" pressure. I for one am not a fan of being 50/50'd or Air-air'd into a vortex but I am completely absent on that characters forum.

 

[Derptile]

I was referring to the fact that you have decided single-handedly that this thread which is still very much alive had run its course.

My quoting skills are subpar though

This thread should've never made it to the 3rd page, you might as well go post in the Cassie Forums and ask what she's missing from being top tier.

Nearly all of the talk we're doing now is about other characters buffs and nerfs, Dragon Fire tech, Strykie trying to get LK normalized, and whether or not Paulo/NRS boiz read these threads. Just because people are posting in a thread doesn't mean it's relevant anymore, and since the discussions are about stuff besides the main topic(which is stupid) I don't really see why it should be open, do you?

 

[Ares_Supreme]

This thread should've never made it to the 3rd page, you might as well go post in the Cassie Forums and ask what she's missing from being top tier.

Nearly all of the talk we're doing now is about other characters buffs and nerfs, Dragon Fire tech, Strykie trying to get LK normalized, and whether or not Paulo/NRS boiz read these threads. Just because people are posting in a thread doesn't mean it's relevant anymore, and since the discussions are about stuff besides the main topic(which is stupid) I don't really see why it should be open, do you?

Good point actually. Now I'm with you lol. Not sure how this turned into a Nerf super mid-tier kang thread

 

[Phosferrax]

Fucking Nightwing players downplaying as usual.

 

[AssassiN]

This has been a great read.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Fucking Nightwing players downplaying as usual.

In my defense, I was a NW up player

 

[Tom Brady]

Liu Kang in DF is pretty fucked up and I'd have him top tier. As a SZ player I have to come to him through countless fireballs only to get caught in a pseudo block infinite when I do get in because SZ can only escape it with armor.