Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GM Match Ups

[Endeavor]

@Tom Brady why do you think it's in Kung Jin's favor? Also could you give us others subs any tips, for match up specifics for me I know I'm starting to get really pissed vs Sorcerer Quan. I feel completely helpless against that variation.

 

[imblackjames]

Hey guys im looking for some GM subzero mu experience. i play necromancer shinnok and commando kano. Can someone or a few ppl add me on xbl thanks

Gt: imblackjames

 

[Jynks]

Anyone see next level battle circuit this week? It was extreamly good.. but HonneyBee (Swam-D'vorah) vs DJT (Gran-Sub)... man D'vorah just made a joke out of iceclone. As in basically could completely ignore it!

Now I am not in a "nurff this, buff this, this isn't working right" camp... All I am saying is match up wise... She seams own Gran-Sub as iceclone is nearly useless.

Check out her busting out of jail strait though the clone
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=270m44s

Check out her over head going right over the clone into full combo (this is common in this set)
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=265m43s

Check out low pokes to bait jump for d2, each poke going right through
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=270m26s

Entire match starts here (watch it, as it is awesome)
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/v/6291135?t=265m25s

If you watch the full set you can see the disrespect for the clone. Could we call D'Vorah a hard counter for gan-sub?

 

[Qwark28]

Just my initial thought. In no way am I saying any of this is for sure. certainly not a top 10 character.



vs Cassie any variation - 6/4

vs D'Vorah Swarm Queen - 3/7

vs Ermac MOS - 5/5

vs Erron Black Outlaw - 4/6 (could end up 3/7)

vs Ferra/Torr Vicious - 4/6

vs Goro Kuaton Warrior - 5/5 (could end up 4/6)

vs Jaqui any variation - 6/4

vs Jax any variation - 5/5

vs Jason - still unsure

vs Johnny Cage - unsure, could be 6/4 or 5/5

vs Kano Cut Throat & Cybernetic - 5/5

vs Kenshi Balanced - 3/7 (may only end up 4/6)

vs Kitanna any variation - 6/4

vs Kotal Khan War God - 5/5

vs Kung Jin Bo Jitsu & Shaolin - 4/6

vs Kung Lao Buzz Saw - 3/7 (may only emd up 4/6)

vs Lui Kang Dragons Fire - 5/5

vs Mileena any variation - 6/4 (may end up 5/5)

vs Predator

vs Quan-Chi Summoner - 4/6

vs Raiden TG - 4/6 (could end up 3/7)

vs Reptile any variation - 6/4

vs Scorpion Hellfire - 4/6 (may end up 5/5)

vs Shinnok Imposter - 5/5

vs Sonya Dronya & Spec Ops - 5/5

vs Takeda any variation - 6/4

vs Tanya any variation - 3/7

vs Tremor

TG Raiden is 5-5 more than anything. Kotal I agree on a 5-5 and if there's any side the advantage would sway on it'd be his.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Raiden feels pretty dang hard to me out of all our match ups. What makes you think Sub plays better against him than most the cast?

 

[Qwark28]

Raiden feels pretty dang hard to me out of all our match ups. What makes you think Sub plays better against him than most the cast?

He's not hard to keep out and lame out if you excuse him supermaning through the clone which I expect to be fixed. His footsie tools are lacking with F1 being high while you have D4, F4, B2 etc.

 

[Tom Brady]

He's not hard to keep out and lame out if you excuse him supermaning through the clone which I expect to be fixed. His footsie tools are lacking with F1 being high while you have D4, F4, B2 etc.

Raiden punishes B2 everytime meterless, punishes b33 (very hard), punishes raw clone meterless, punishes all clone cancels and ex clone is unreliable as a way to bait, he also goes through the clone with lightning attacks and builds 50/60% of a bar in the process.

But things are changing so it could very well end up a 5/5

 

[Qwark28]

Raiden punishes B2 everytime meterless, punishes b33 (very hard), punishes raw clone meterless, punishes all clone cancels and ex clone is unreliable as a way to bait, he also goes through the clone with lightning attacks and builds 50/60% of a bar in the process.

But things are changing so it could very well end up a 5/5

I don't use mixups of that nature against him, I try to go for a lot of throws and D4s in the corner to accumulate damage little by little into safe clone cancels or a combo from the throw. Shatter cancels are safe and push back a lot so I use those too. It's unfortunate but you have to annoy the Raiden player a lot but that's generally what SZ does, you have the advantage in footsies and the other person just has to accept that he will take damage coming in.

His lightning attacks through the clone build him 30% meter unless he hits you a normal of yours through the clone and he's - afterwards at a fair distance. I wouldn't do that very often since it can be D4d which unless max range, gives a run S1 frametrap or even jumped over for full combo. You pretty much have to lame him out and play it as safe as you can because his 50 50s are far safer than yours and do the same amount of damage, the only thing you got in that department are shatter mixups.

Generally, all my ample meter goes into EX clone, ex slide when my back is approaching the corner and breakers.

I don't account for bugs in my matchup explanations so I don't add the fact he can glitch through the clone with superman.

 

[Tom Brady]

I don't use mixups of that nature against him, I try to go for a lot of throws and D4s in the corner to accumulate damage little by little into safe clone cancels or a combo from the throw. Shatter cancels are safe and push back a lot so I use those too. It's unfortunate but you have to annoy the Raiden player a lot but that's generally what SZ does, you have the advantage in footsies and the other person just has to accept that he will take damage coming in.

His lightning attacks through the clone build him 30% meter unless he hits you a normal of yours through the clone and he's - afterwards at a fair distance. I wouldn't do that very often since it can be D4d which unless max range, gives a run S1 frametrap or even jumped over for full combo. You pretty much have to lame him out and play it as safe as you can because his 50 50s are far safer than yours and do the same amount of damage, the only thing you got in that department are shatter mixups.

Generally, all my ample meter goes into EX clone, ex slide when my back is approaching the corner and breakers.

I don't account for bugs in my matchup explanations so I don't add the fact he can glitch through the clone with superman.

He can cancel the lighting attack with shocker or FBC and get more then 30% of meter.

 

[Qwark28]

He can cancel the lighting attack with shocker or FBC and get more then 30% of meter.

Maybe if you're in the corner. But midscreen no good raiden will ever do either except if we're talking about ex shocker and that's a pretty ballsy read. Both options are horrible because from, a position midscreen where you're making sub block the lightning, shocker whiffs and his projectile is a high.

 

[omooba]

I haven't been using Grandmaster against him, and even then the games I've won have been from getting him into the corner. Maybe it will go easier now that I'm back to maining GM.

I just feel my main problem is that his combo's hit so hard even off a wake up, I feel like if he gets 2 connects it's GG because he can just zone the rest or chip damage a shitload, and his normals feel very hard to punish because of their frames and often range, and his mix-up game is so sick, and just due to the nature of the character, he ALWAYS seems to have meter. I'd love any advice I can get on this match up

ur getting out zoned by raiden with sub zero? bruh

 

[I GOT HANDS]

ur getting out zoned by raiden with sub zero? bruh

I said it feels like after he lands 2 combos, he doesn't even need another connect since it puts me in range for him to just easily chip/fireball the rest away, chip damage being something he doesn't extremely well. It's not as though he's just sitting full screen and throwing projectiles for a full match, although, you'd know this if you hadn't deliberately ignored the entirety of the post you quoted other than half a sentence of it, so that you could make a stupid ass attempt to be witty and fail at it

 

[ragnar0kz28]

Idk I find it a bit tough to deal with scorp myself. Hellfire can put you in block stun for years and Inferno is hella Yolo. But personally feel like Sub has got to be patient and wait for him to hang himself, and then punish him all the way into the corner. Once there its not too bad, but do be too overzealous cause one right teleport and he's out.

Hey buddy I got a set recorded against your Scorpion

 

[Endeavor]

Hey buddy I got a set recorded against your Scorpion

I wasn't aware that I had fought you.

 

[omooba]

I said it feels like after he lands 2 combos, he doesn't even need another connect since it puts me in range for him to just easily chip/fireball the rest away, chip damage being something he doesn't extremely well. It's not as though he's just sitting full screen and throwing projectiles for a full match, although, you'd know this if you hadn't deliberately ignored the entirety of the post you quoted other than half a sentence of it, so that you could make a stupid ass attempt to be witty and fail at it

soooooo saying 'bruh' is an attempt to be witty? secondly if ur using grandmaster subzero you should never EVER have any issues with raiden's projectile seeing as how it can be ducked, ur clone absorbs it and the slide goes under it. in fact if u slide under it from full screen. the slide recovers quickly enough to do a full combo. The fact that ur opponents throw out raiden's fireball after a combo should be a liability for them not a problem for u. soooo yeah i maintain my original statement, ur getting zoned out by raiden with subzero? bruh

 

[RM Ree]

I'm not so sure you get a free punish for sliding under Raidens projo, not if you slide on reaction from full screen. Raiden MU isn't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.

- Clone on reaction to lightning- clone is now on CD, meter gain is even, adv. Raiden.
- Clone anticipating lightning- Electric fly punish on reaction (any range) free corner push, adv. Raiden.
- Duck lightning- free meter gain, adv. Raiden
- Slide under lightning- possible punish, adv. SZ. If both whiff, reset to neutral, even meter gain, adv. neutral.

Maybe we have ice ball. But it's slow and it does no chip. He's going to make one bad trade, if that, and just walk in on SZ. This match up is rough.

 

[omooba]

I'm not so sure you get a free punish for sliding under Raidens projo, not if you slide on reaction from full screen. Raiden MU isn't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.

- Clone on reaction to lightning- clone is now on CD, meter gain is even, adv. Raiden.
- Clone anticipating lightning- Electric fly punish on reaction (any range) free corner push, adv. Raiden.
- Duck lightning- free meter gain, adv. Raiden
- Slide under lightning- possible punish, adv. SZ. If both whiff, reset to neutral, even meter gain, adv. neutral.

Maybe we have ice ball. But it's slow and it does no chip. He's going to make one bad trade, if that, and just walk in on SZ. This match up is rough.

1) how is meter gain even = adv raiden?
2) as of today electric fly's hitbox has been reduced and i don't think it hits through the clone but not sure either way it can't be punished on reaction with electric fly. sub can block.
3) not really that big a deal but ok adv raiden
4) slide either hits raiden for a punish or u recover quickly enough to at least return to neutral. but i swear i've punished it. maybe cause of online.
5) also lets not forget enhanced ice ball on raction eats the lightning and freezes raiden.
my main point is no good raiden player will consistently throw out that move agianst anyone especially subzero because it's slow, duckable and not that much dmg, i believe it's 5%? maybe 7%.
my point is when considering the raiden vs sub match up the lightning shouldn't even come up as a problem for sub. the only good thing it does is run cancel

 

[I GOT HANDS]

1) how is meter gain even = adv raiden?
2) as of today electric fly's hitbox has been reduced and i don't think it hits through the clone but not sure either way it can't be punished on reaction with electric fly. sub can block.
3) not really that big a deal but ok adv raiden
4) slide either hits raiden for a punish or u recover quickly enough to at least return to neutral. but i swear i've punished it. maybe cause of online.
5) also lets not forget enhanced ice ball on raction eats the lightning and freezes raiden.
my main point is no good raiden player will consistently throw out that move agianst anyone especially subzero because it's slow, duckable and not that much dmg, i believe it's 5%? maybe 7%.
my point is when considering the raiden vs sub match up the lightning shouldn't even come up as a problem for sub. the only good thing it does is run cancel

So basically, you were just given a bunch of reasons why SZ loses in a projectile war, and you either completely ignored it (no response to the fact that Clone has a CD and a Raiden does not), responded incorrectly (Yes, Raiden IS able to punish Clone at every range, perhaps you should test this), or just responded that ""it's not a big deal" to the to the meter building advantage that Rai has at every aspect of the game, part of the original complaint, and then you even proceed to list ex-Iceball as option, which is just throwing out meter hoping for the best because you cannot guarantee a hit on reaction, UNLIKE ex Superfly.

That being said, it's not the projectile war where Raiden beats me, playing at that range from the start is a game I'll play as long as he will. The statement I said that he hits so hard that he often NAND quickly gets to a place where he only needs a little bit of chip / zoning to close out a round, it doesn't matter if I have a slight advantage in the zoning war if he has a massive life advantage from wrecking me in the nuetral game. Not to mention the unpredictability in timing windows of cancel-able fireballs.

Then again, you haven't come out with a logical counter to anything explained here, so I'm guessing your just a baddie looking for an argument and didn't realise how dumb you'd end up looking afterwards.

Bruh.

 

[omooba]

So basically, you were just given a bunch of reasons why SZ loses in a projectile war, and you either completely ignored it (no response to the fact that Clone has a CD and a Raiden does not), responded incorrectly (Yes, Raiden IS able to punish Clone at every range, perhaps you should test this), or just responded that ""it's not a big deal" to the to the meter building advantage that Rai has at every aspect of the game, part of the original complaint, and then you even proceed to list ex-Iceball as option, which is just throwing out meter hoping for the best because you cannot guarantee a hit on reaction, UNLIKE ex Superfly.

That being said, it's not the projectile war where Raiden beats me, playing at that range from the start is a game I'll play as long as he will. The statement I said that he hits so hard that he often NAND quickly gets to a place where he only needs a little bit of chip / zoning to close out a round, it doesn't matter if I have a slight advantage in the zoning war if he has a massive life advantage from wrecking me in the nuetral game. Not to mention the unpredictability in timing windows of cancel-able fireballs.

Then again, you haven't come out with a logical counter to anything explained here, so I'm guessing your just a baddie looking for an argument and didn't realise how dumb you'd end up looking afterwards.

Bruh.

he can't punish it on reaction. it doesn't have that much recovery. if he reads it yes he can punish but not on reaction.
when i said "how is meter gain even = adv raiden?" i was implying it's not adv raiden it's just back to neutral
i can't believe that ur saying it's possible to react to a clone but not to raiden's electricity with ex-iceball.
and raiden doesn't hit that hard unless ur in the corner. and subzero has way more options to keep raiden in the corner
raiden doesn't have a meter building advantage on subzero anymore than he has on every character in the game. infact it's harder to build against sub cause it's so hard to get in on him. every raiden player knows that if u try to fly through the clone, sub zero either blocks for a full punish or throws an iceball for full punish.
lastly i just want to point out that in all ur reply you've chosen to insult me and i haven't insulted u once. i don't know why it's so hard for u state ur case and not insult me at the same time[/QUOTE]

 

[RM Ree]

Raiden can punish clone with electric fly on reaction from almost full screen. I'm not so much asking for an opinion as I'm stating a fact. Please test this for yourself, it'll improve your play and it only takes 30 seconds (On average, human reaction time is 19f to a random stimuli, and it's faster if you're anticipating limited options).

Shout outs to @ZeZe for having played a video game this year and this knowing what CD means.

 

[ZeZe]

Lol I deleted my post since the post it was referring to has been edited. I should have quoted. My bad.

 

[omooba]

Raiden can punish clone with electric fly on reaction from almost full screen. I'm not so much asking for an opinion as I'm stating a fact. Please test this for yourself, it'll improve your play and it only takes 30 seconds (On average, human reaction time is 19f to a random stimuli, and it's faster if you're anticipating limited options).

Shout outs to @ZeZe for having played a video game this year and this knowing what CD means.

Raiden can punish clone with electric fly on reaction from almost full screen. I'm not so much asking for an opinion as I'm stating a fact. Please test this for yourself, it'll improve your play and it only takes 30 seconds (On average, human reaction time is 19f to a random stimuli, and it's faster if you're anticipating limited options).

Shout outs to @ZeZe for having played a video game this year and this knowing what CD means.

just tested it. technically i guess it's reactable but realisticly i don't know if i'd agree. i think my reaction is at least average for fighting games and i miss the reaction for this 5/7 times but i see ur point

 

[I GOT HANDS]

The point was never really anything to do with him being able to punish clone with EFly which we all know is possible, you've completely offtracked this discussion, the point was that just a couple of combos and I feel like I'm a couple of Fireballs away from death. Whether or not he wins the zoning war is kinda of irrelevant to the point

 

[omooba]

The point was never really anything to do with him being able to punish clone with EFly which we all know is possible, you've completely offtracked this discussion, the point was that just a couple of combos and I feel like I'm a couple of Fireballs away from death. Whether or not he wins the zoning war is kinda of irrelevant to the point

u do realize i'm talking to two other people about other stuff right? if the zoning war didn't matter why did you..... nvm i'm just gonna end the conversation

 

[Take$$$]

Just my initial thought. In no way am I saying any of this is for sure. certainly not a top 10 character.



vs Cassie any variation - 6/4

vs D'Vorah Swarm Queen - 3/7

vs Ermac MOS - 5/5

vs Erron Black Outlaw - 4/6 (could end up 3/7)

vs Ferra/Torr Vicious - 4/6

vs Goro Kuaton Warrior - 5/5 (could end up 4/6)

vs Jaqui any variation - 6/4

vs Jax any variation - 5/5

vs Jason - still unsure

vs Johnny Cage - unsure, could be 6/4 or 5/5

vs Kano Cut Throat & Cybernetic - 5/5

vs Kenshi Balanced - 3/7 (may only end up 4/6)

vs Kitanna any variation - 6/4

vs Kotal Khan War God - 5/5

vs Kung Jin Bo Jitsu & Shaolin - 4/6

vs Kung Lao Buzz Saw - 3/7 (may only emd up 4/6)

vs Lui Kang Dragons Fire - 5/5

vs Mileena any variation - 6/4 (may end up 5/5)

vs Predator

vs Quan-Chi Summoner - 4/6

vs Raiden TG - 4/6 (could end up 3/7)

vs Reptile any variation - 6/4

vs Scorpion Hellfire - 4/6 (may end up 5/5)

vs Shinnok Imposter - 5/5

vs Sonya Dronya & Spec Ops - 5/5

vs Takeda any variation - 6/4

vs Tanya any variation - 3/7

vs Tremor

Agree on the SQ D'Vorah one, clone really doesn't do much in this matchup unless the SQ player gets impatient and starts carelessly tossing out f11s and jumping from bad distances. Don't forget that even though SQ doesn't have a guaranteed 50/50 off of f112 wc anymore, she's still +12(first confirmed by me just a few minutes ago!) afterward which means 112, 212, and b1 are guaranteed off of it. This means that if you're not willing to armor or backdash after f112, you still have to guess between overhead(f2, 15 frames which means you can armor this, 32%)/low(b1, 11 frames, 17%, 30%)/212(10 frames, high, last hit is OH, 32%)/112(7 frames, high, 35%)/throw(12%). There are other options for her like going into f11 xx wc(30%) or ex wasp(up to 45% midscreen and 46% corner)/another f112(thanks OS's), but I'm not sure how good that is yet since you can still armor that/easily block it.

The only real option that you still have after f112 wc is to block, but if you don't think the SQ player will do b1/112/212 then you can armor or backdash. I mean, if I were playing against an SQ player that can land the b1 off of f112 while I'm still jailed I'd just block after f112(or eat the 2 in f112. I know, it's not a solution, but it STILL might currently be your best option). Do keep in mind that both her overhead and low wc combos are 100% safe on block if the player is able to hit confirm, but now against sub they're ONLY safe if the SQ player runs after and blocks or jumps IMMEDIATELY. If they backdash after f22 wc or b1 wc(edit: b1 wc cannot run jump to be safe on block, they have to run block asap) you can at least punish with a slide on a read(maybe even more, possibly even on reaction. lab it up and let me know!). Also for those who don't know, there's an armorable gap in 21(gap)2, and hitting the b1 off of f112 while you're still jailed is literally 1 frame so it's extremely hard to do. Probably something you wont have to worry about for a week or two, maybe more.

You can also punish SQ's puddle from anywhere on the screen on reaction.

I also think it's more or less the same against Venomous, since if you try to corner her she will get out and put you in the corner where you have to hold that vortex. Don't forget that you can special mash while blocking the bug spray though, so you will always be able to punish it with slide. I think Brood Mother might be better a better D'Vorah matchup for GM sub too, possibly even in his favor, but I haven't played the matchup enough to have a solid opinion on it.