Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Ice Clone does not function right part 2

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Why even bother replying to leasris1? He actually just suggested nerfing Raiden's superman instead. He actually thinks that would be the better thing to do than fixing the klone. This thought actually went through his mind.
I mean, just... lol.

(PS i've seen that guy crying about sub before so him spitting out complete nonsense in a thread dedicated to fixing SZ is not surprising)

 

[learis1]

Do you ever read posts like the one above this ^, start typing, and then just pause and think "I can't be bothered arguing with someone this stupid", and delete everything you had written?

Because that's what I just did.

Good choice, better to just make a blanket statement of your superiority rather than risk actually saying something .

Name anyone here that has proposed the things YOU said ! NAME THEM!!!
WE DO NOT WANT BUFFS WE WANT THE KLONE TO WORK PROPERLY!
For the klone to work properly IT NEEDS TO FREEZE ON CONTACT REGARDLESS OF SUB ZERO SITTING IN THE KLONE, NEAR THE KLONE, BLOCKING OR OTHERWISE.
Many SZ players have stated in numerous posts that we do do care how this is achieved as long as it gets fixed!
Do you you comprehend all of that or do I need to spell it out for you?

Do you freaking understand what this boils down to?????

You say you want this fixed but you don't even understand what's causing it in the first place. You don't say how you want it fixed, simply for it to be fixed.

IT"S ABOUT HITBOXES AND HURTBOXES. Fixing it entails changing those things. I said you'd need a bigger freeze area on sub's ice clone to fix this or you'd need to adjust the hitbox/hutrbox on Raiden's superman punch to fix this.

It's not magic. You don't just snap your fingers and fix it without other consequences occuring. I'm telling you about the consequences that you apparently don't want to pay attention to.

 

[Nate]

So basically, you want clone to have an increased freeze area on it so that it will outreach past Raiden's hitbox to his hurtbox on his superman special.

Do you have any idea how gamechanging it will be to increase the freeze area on clone? How many new strategies and setups it could open up, how much more powerful and inescapable it could make clone to do so?

You guys are completely clueless and obsessed with clone buffs. The better way to fix this would just be to nerf Raiden's hitbox or increase his hurt box on superman so that his hurtbox touches clone before the hitbox connects with SZ whose behind the clone.

You guys are really stupid, that's what this thread ultimately boils down to and why there's so much moaning and confusion on this thread.

Wow, what an asshole. We just want the clone fixed. "Powerful and inescapable" spoken like someone who clearly has trouble with the MU so you have to come here and be a dick about it. Salty much?

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

@learis1

This problem is not exclusive to the Raiden MU and his superman. The videos in the OP are just one example and they happen to be against Raiden. So, what the hell would be the point of nerfing Raiden then? You've just unfairly nerfed Raiden while leaving the actual problem completely unchanged.

By suggesting Raiden get changed instead, you clearly demonstrated that you don't know anything about this discussion and the problem at hand, so I'd rather not debate with you.

 

[darthbrooks]

IT"S ABOUT HITBOXES AND HURTBOXES. Fixing it entails changing those things. I said you'd need a bigger freeze area on sub's ice clone to fix this or you'd need to adjust the hitbox/hutrbox on Raiden's superman punch to fix this.

Please, enlighten me as to how the ice clone is implemented. I have only shallow knowledge of UE but pseudo code would be sufficient, or even C++ if you so wish. You seem to really know what's up.

 

[learis1]

@learis1

This problem is not exclusive to the Raiden MU and his superman. So, what the hell would be the point of nerfing Raiden then? You've just unfairly touched Raiden while leaving the actual problem completely unchanged.

You clearly just demonstrated that you don't know anything about this discussion and the problems with the klone, so I'd rather not debate with you.

I know it's not exclusive to Raiden, I've seen Tom's other videos complaining about this. It's about particular normals/strings/specials where character's hitbox/hurtbox ratios allow them to poke through clone and touch sub zero when he's standing close behind it. You guys argue that this is unfair and makes clone too weak.

This a very delicate problem and everyone's response here is "fix it! fix it!". You don't know how for it to get fixed and don't give any suggestions how you want it fixed, You just whine and moan.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

I know it's not exclusive to Raiden, I've seen Tom's other videos complaining about this. It's about particular normals/strings/specials where character's hitbox/hurtbox ratios allow them to poke through clone and touch sub zero when he's standing close behind it. You guys argue that this is unfair and makes clone too weak.

This a very delicate problem and everyone's response here is "fix it! fix it!". You don't know how for it to get fixed and don't give any suggestions how you want it fixed, You just whine and moan.

Complete bullshit. If you know it's not exclusive to Raiden then why did you suggest changing Raiden?

You have the nerve to come in here and call others stupid and yet you suggest changing Raiden's superman, which ironically is probably the stupidest suggestion on this topic yet.

 

[buyacushun]

Hey, I'm not calling for anything, and I'm not even saying "this is how he was so this is how he should be" You simply said name another character that can do etc etc. Well Sub Zero in every other game could. And seeing as how those are different games, then they count as different characters. You can't sit here and tell me sub zero from Mk2 is the same character as sub zero from mk9. So my point is valid. Don't go crying about the fact that the clone is "too good" because if that was the case, I'm sure it wouldn't have functioned the way it did for like 10 games. Again, I think you just took me out of context, you said to name a character that could do that, and I did.

OK so if i HAVE to be as specific as possible. THEN NAME A NON NRS CHARACTER THAT MATCHES THE SPECIFICATIONS I LISTED EARLIER. This is one of the most ridiculous responses ive gotten yet. Congratulations.

 

[buyacushun]

If someone could poke "a bit", "a little" etc. into the clone without getting frozen, sure, that would be comparable to your example. Also, what you describe is in every fighting game ever since the dawn of time. FTs arm going clean through the clone is something else entirely. It's nonsense.

It looks like nonsense sure. But can someone actually go into the lab and prove this situation can constantly happen AND it wrecks the grandmaster sub zero matchup. This is also has to apply to other matchups because you cant ask for changes based on one matchup. Then ill be all for better balance. Right now the arguement is "This LOOKS wrong and i dont like it. Fix that." To which I have stated that's not enough to warrant "fixes"/buffs/nerfs of any kind. That's the same reasoning behind the atrocities of NRS's past patching.

Name anyone here that has proposed the things YOU said ! NAME THEM!!!
WE DO NOT WANT BUFFS WE WANT THE KLONE TO WORK PROPERLY!
For the klone to work properly IT NEEDS TO FREEZE ON CONTACT REGARDLESS OF SUB ZERO SITTING IN THE KLONE, NEAR THE KLONE, BLOCKING OR OTHERWISE.
Many SZ players have stated in numerous posts that we do do care how this is achieved as long as it gets fixed!
Do you you comprehend all of that or do I need to spell it out for you?

EDIT @TheIrishFGCguy I wish I did the same thing as you mate.

I for one am totally against sub being able to sit in clone or be barely touching it. That's way too much. If he has to back up a bit from clone to get it to work properly it still does everything it needs to do.

 

[learis1]

Please, enlighten me as to how the ice clone is implemented. I have only shallow knowledge of UE but pseudo code would be sufficient, or even C++ if you so wish. You seem to really know what's up.

Haha, that's funny because I'm actually a programmer. I imagine there's a for loop or a conditional statement that checks for all situations and puts out a clone that is most guaranteed to get beat out and make you salty. Sound reasoning right?

Complete bullshit. If you know it's not exclusive to Raiden then why did you suggest changing Raiden?

Because the genius first post of this thread has all videos dedicated to illustrating clone is broken because Raiden's superman outprioritizes it at certain spacing conditions. I'm just responding to what would be safest to do to rectify that particular situation.

But it's not just that situation that pisses you guys off. What I see happening is people are discovering what pokes and strings are safe to attempt to breach ice clone pressure. For every 9 pokes that ice clone beats, maybe a character finds 1 poke that gives them a chance to touch sub who is waiting behind the clone. This apparently makes clone too weak and entails that it needs to be "fixed".

 

[buyacushun]

Good choice, better to just make a blanket statement of your superiority rather than risk actually saying something .


Do you freaking understand what this boils down to?????

You say you want this fixed but you don't even understand what's causing it in the first place. You don't say how you want it fixed, simply for it to be fixed.

IT"S ABOUT HITBOXES AND HURTBOXES. Fixing it entails changing those things. I said you'd need a bigger freeze area on sub's ice clone to fix this or you'd need to adjust the hitbox/hutrbox on Raiden's superman punch to fix this.

It's not magic. You don't just snap your fingers and fix it without other consequences occuring. I'm telling you about the consequences that you apparently don't want to pay attention to.

This guy right here is using the right logic that no one wants to talk about. It's just "I think this sucks change it change it." Well instead of "fixing" clone. Change all the other characters to have more appropriate hitboxes/hurtboxes as best as possible. Or nothing needs to be changed and sub needs to take a half step back from clone. All possible suggestions but nope just have NRS swoop in and change a game mechanic just like with everything else they do. ONCE AGAIN!!! THIS IS EXACTLY THE SUB MAINS MAIN COMPLAINT WITH THE CLONE NERFS THAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[-narshkajke-]

Wow, now I remember why I stopped coming here years ago. Some of you are so stubborn it's ridiculous.
Whether or not he blocked is NOT the issue. It all comes back to hitboxes vs hurtboxes, or did you not read everything I posted?

Because Sub was blocking in my video, he shrunk his hurtbox, thus allowing Raiden to travel a little farther than if he had not blocked. Because he traveled farther, his hurtbox was able to make contact with the clone and freeze him.

In the first video in the OP though, a different situation occurred. Each time he got frozen Raiden was TOO close to the clone, so the active hitbox of the Superman didn't even come out yet.

are you being triggered habibi?

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

This guy right here is using the right logic that no one wants to talk about. It's just "I think this sucks change it change it." Well instead of "fixing" clone. Change all the other characters to have more appropriate hitboxes/hurtboxes as best as possible. Or nothing needs to be changed and sub needs to take a half step back from clone. All possible suggestions but nope just have NRS swoop in and change a game mechanic just like with everything else they do. ONCE AGAIN!!! THIS IS EXACTLY THE SUB MAINS MAIN COMPLAINT WITH THE CLONE NERFS THAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Lmao, what? How on earth is that the right logic? Why would they go through all the time and effort of changing every character in the game when all they need to do is change the klone? Changing the klone gives the exact same result.

I keep saying change but I mean fix.

 

[ZeZe]

In corner situation if Sub takes half step back from the clone, his only attack reaching far enough is his b2. Then you take away his 50/50 because he needs to take step in for his b33 to connect. This kills SubZ's corner game. If you see him stepping back you know the only thing you can expect is his overhead.

 

[buyacushun]

Lmao, what? How on earth is that the right logic? Why would they go through all the time and effort of changing every character in the game when all they need to do is change the klone? Changing the klone gives the exact same result.

I keep saying change but I mean fix.

Are you asking why a dev would do something that takes more time that would solve more than one problem? Why would any body check things instead of doing the easy way in their work? Come on guy. Changing clone also means they have to test the matchup now vs all and dlc characters. which could just mean more changes anyways. Or do you want NRS to just make clone better and not do anything else? yup this is exactly the thing that gives this community a bad name.

In corner situation if Sub takes half step back from the clone, his only attack reaching far enough is his b2. Then you take away his 50/50 because he needs to take step in for his b33 to connect. This kills SubZ's corner game. If you see him stepping back you know the only thing you can expect is his overhead.

In theory yes but clone is also still out and the opponent is just gonna watch you dance trying to range some normals or bait him into poking out and getting frozen. There is way more happening during play than a 50/50 being lost. Someone mentioned using d3 or the b2 from that distance. What does a d3 give on hit and on block. The post was saying on hit you get the 50/50 anyways. (Could also be d4 i dont quite remember.)

Thanks for at least discussing something with me @ZeZe

I Hope @Tom Brady makes a response with his thoughts with all that's been brought up. Since he is seen as THE Sub Zero leader.

 

[GAV]

Are you asking why a dev would do something that takes more time that would solve more than one problem? Why would any body check things instead of doing the easy way in their work? Come on guy. Changing clone also means they have to test the matchup now vs all and dlc characters. which could just mean more changes anyways. Or do you want NRS to just make clone better and not do anything else? yup this is exactly the thing that gives this community a bad name.



In theory yes but clone is also still out and the opponent is just gonna watch you dance trying to range some normals or bait him into poking out and getting frozen. There is way more happening during play than a 50/50 being lost. Someone mentioned using d3 or the b2 from that distance. What does a d3 give on hit and on block. The post was saying on hit you get the 50/50 anyways. (Could also be d4 i dont quite remember.)

Thanks for at least discussing something with me @ZeZe

I Hope @Tom Brady makes a response with his thoughts with all that's been brought up. Since he is seen as THE Sub Zero leader.

I don't think that is necessary. The vids speak volumes. There is no grey area and no need to speak any further on something so clear. It is what it is.

 

[Nate]

This guy right here is using the right logic that no one wants to talk about. It's just "I think this sucks change it change it." Well instead of "fixing" clone. Change all the other characters to have more appropriate hitboxes/hurtboxes as best as possible. Or nothing needs to be changed and sub needs to take a half step back from clone. All possible suggestions but nope just have NRS swoop in and change a game mechanic just like with everything else they do. ONCE AGAIN!!! THIS IS EXACTLY THE SUB MAINS MAIN COMPLAINT WITH THE CLONE NERFS THAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You keep saying nobody's suggesting how to fix it. Are you so dense that you really don't know how the clone is supposed work? Ok here, I'll spell it out for you. The fix we all want, is that when the opponent touches the clone, we want them to freeze.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Are you asking why a dev would do something that takes more time that would solve more than one problem? Why would any body check things instead of doing the easy way in their work? Come on guy. Changing clone also means they have to test the matchup now vs all and dlc characters. which could just mean more changes anyways. Or do you want NRS to just make clone better and not do anything else? yup this is exactly the thing that gives this community a bad name.



In theory yes but clone is also still out and the opponent is just gonna watch you dance trying to range some normals or bait him into poking out and getting frozen. There is way more happening during play than a 50/50 being lost. Someone mentioned using d3 or the b2 from that distance. What does a d3 give on hit and on block. The post was saying on hit you get the 50/50 anyways. (Could also be d4 i dont quite remember.)

Thanks for at least discussing something with me @ZeZe

I Hope @Tom Brady makes a response with his thoughts with all that's been brought up. Since he is seen as THE Sub Zero leader.

What do you mean more than one problem? There is no more than one problem. The other characters and their dimensions are fine, the ONLY problem is the klone hitbox being not even close to what it is visually. There is no need to go around changing other characters unless there are other in-game issues relating to hitboxes and hurtboxes, and as far as we all know, there aren't any.
You're just dancing around the source of the problem. This only came to light because of the nerf they made to the klone on block, there is absolutely no reason to go around messing with other characters when the problem is with the klone.

 

[Nate]

Also, I don't buy into the whole "Nobody's saying how to fix it" bullshit that some of these guys keeps spouting. The logic there is just fucked. If your sink springs a leak, you want it fixed. You call the plumber and say you want it fixed. You don't have to tell him how to do it, because that's his fucking job. If something is broken it's broken. The only people who think otherwise are just scrubby fucking whiners that can't beat a middle of the pack character. I'm no pro, but I don't fucking cry when another character has a good tool. I think scorpion is great, but if something about him was clearly not working properly I'd still want it to be fixed. I wouldn't start acting like a whiny little bitch about it, and spouting off about the community crying for buff's, or saying things like "Maybe it's supposed to be the way so it's not so dominant!". smfh

 

[buyacushun]

I don't think that is necessary. The vids speak volumes. There is no grey area and no need to speak any further on something so clear. It is what it is.

How is it clear? because the clone isn't behaving how you want in that one scenario? How should it be fixed? That's what im trying to get at. You want clone to work better? How? Buff clone (dont say "fix" cause it will be buff clone hitbox becomes larger catching more moves and you can't just ignore the fact NRS made the moves the way they are.) Buffing clone changes matchups. Could be drastically. But no one wants to talk about that. Everyone here just wants to see clone do what THEY want it to do and everything should be ok after that right?

You keep saying nobody's suggesting how to fix it. Are you so dense that you really don't know how the clone is supposed work? Ok here, I'll spell it out for you. The fix we all want, is that when the opponent touches the clone, we want them to freeze.

Good thing game changes don't go by what you or any group of people want. At least that's the way it should be. I want MoS Raiden to have a lot of things but i haven't really gone through how they change the game so i don't go posting that something should change. I'm actually playing first trying to figure it out. I'll post the problems I have with the character but that is in the hopes that someone knows the answer to my problems or it helps spark a breakthrough for someone else.

What do you mean more than one problem? There is no more than one problem. The other characters and their dimensions are fine, the ONLY problem is the klone hitbox being not even close to what it is visually. There is no need to go around changing other characters unless there are other in-game issues relating to hitboxes and hurtboxes, and as far as we all know, there aren't any.
You're just dancing around the source of the problem. This only came to light because of the nerf they made to the klone on block, there is absolutely no reason to go around messing with other characters when the problem is with the klone.

Shows how much you pay attention to the major problems of the game. There was a thread a while back that i think was about mileena and a move whiffing depending on the state of the opponent's body during the breathing animation. Jacqui's problems getting fixed were hugely in part to wonky hitboxes / hurtboxes. a common complaint is how often mids whiff in this game. This game has quite a few problems when it comes to the properties of moves.

All these arguments show me im talking to people or don't understand or care about how things affect the game. They just want whats best for Sub Zero which is a great way to kill MKx. Has anyone gone into the lab and shown that Raiden can punish a blocked b2 with fly while clone is out? heck might be something else.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

How is it clear? because the clone isn't behaving how you want in that one scenario? How should it be fixed? That's what im trying to get at. You want clone to work better? How? Buff clone (dont say "fix" cause it will be buff clone hitbox becomes larger catching more moves and you can't just ignore the fact NRS made the moves the way they are.) Buffing clone changes matchups. Could be drastically. But no one wants to talk about that. Everyone here just wants to see clone do what THEY want it to do and everything should be ok after that right?



Good thing game changes don't go by what you or any group of people want. At least that's the way it should be. I want MoS Raiden to have a lot of things but i haven't really gone through how they change the game so i don't go posting that something should change. I'm actually playing first trying to figure it out. I'll post the problems I have with the character but that is in the hopes that someone knows the answer to my problems or it helps spark a breakthrough for someone else.



Shows how much you pay attention to the major problems of the game. There was a thread a while back that i think was about mileena and a move whiffing depending on the state of the opponent's body during the breathing animation. Jacqui's problems getting fixed were hugely in part to wonky hitboxes / hurtboxes. a common complaint is how often mids whiff in this game. This game has quite a few problems when it comes to the properties of moves.

All these arguments show me im talking to people or don't understand or care about how things affect the game. They just want whats best for Sub Zero which is a great way to kill MKx. Has anyone gone into the lab and shown that Raiden can punish a blocked b2 with fly while clone is out? heck might be something else.

Exactly. You just contradicted your own point. Jacqui's issues were not fixed by changing every character in the game, but by changing Jacqui. So why would they change every character in the game to fix Sub Zero's issues instead of just fixing Sub Zero?

Edit: Oh okay, so apparently I don't understand the game because I wasn't aware of a Mileena issue lol

 

[Nate]

Exactly. You just contradicted your own point. Jacqui's issues were not fixed by changing every character in the game, but by changing Jacqui. So why would they change every character in the game to fix Sub Zero's issues instead of just fixing Sub Zero?

I'm convinced he's a troll. Nobody can actually have their head that far up their own ass.

 

[learis1]

I'm convinced he's a troll. Nobody can actually have their head that far up their own ass.

Geez, take a look in the mirror buddy. Although it might be hard to do considering where your head is.

 

[-narshkajke-]

another thread about fixing glitch ended up as a bickering and arguing because, some people just want to maintain the glitch of a certain variation of a certain character,, geez people really hate sub that much, they spend their time arguing like crazy instead of leveling up,,

 

[UsedForGlue]

Exactly, why is Ice hammer 40frames of start up? lol

Its totally useless, and can be armoured by any move in the game as it hits, and its only viable from F4...terrible.