Guide - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GRANDMASTER Guide

[RM Ree]

Lab Notes

Mid Screen Overhead - b2, run b12 xx ex ice blast, njp, jip, run 123 xx slide - 33%, 1 bar
- Random, just playing around with this. Feels optimized.

Throw into Clone Combos

FOREWORD (lol): forward throw will typically function as intended, dealing the standard 12%. If clone is particularly close, f-throw has some odd interactions. Notably in the corner, where the throw will complete AND the opponent will be frozen. However this often only reads as 2% damage. Notice when this happens the opponents posture is different and the distance from you is increased and thus, "jip (using 1), 242" will not properly connect. This specific case leaves b2 as your only viable launch. In extremely rare cases, the throw will complete, dealing the full 12% and the opponent will be frozen IF NOT HOLDING BLOCK, acting as if they were hit by or blocked the raw clone. Being able to recreate this in the corner reliably requires more testing, but would lead to some shenanigans. To see the mechanic in question, clone somewhere and have SZ complete his throw, launching the opponent into it. Due to all of this random bullshit, this post focuses on back throws.

Mid-screen Throw Into Clone
- clone, back throw, tech, jip (1), 242, run, 123 xx slide - 23%
(b2 follow up is possible, but the damage is poor)


Corner Throw Into (close) Clone
- clone, back throw, tech, jip (1), 242, jnp, jnk (late) - 22%, safe clone
- clone, back throw, tech, jip (1), 242, jnp, jip, 1, b12 xx slide - 26%
- clone, back throw, tech, run, b2, b2, d1, b12 xx slide - 27%
- clone, back throw, tech, run, b2, b2, 242, 123 xx slide - 31%

Corner Throw Into (far) Clone - SZ switches sides
- clone, back throw, tech, jip, 242...


Standing Mix up Opportunity from Missed Tech

Missed tech >low/ OH - Upon standing from a missed tech after throw into clone, SZ is at frame advantage. You can meaty b33/ b2 mix up for damage, or f4 xx clone to reset the entire situation safely if you used close clone (far clone missed tech puts you in the corner). Note that the opponent has NO reversal window/ opportunity here as far as game mechanics are concerned.

Mix up Shenanigans

- Corner b33 xx ice ball, whiff clone, jip, b2... - true combo
- Corner clone, back throw, tech, jip, b2... - NOT a true combo
I assume that due to the way MKX scales throws inside of combos, and this scaling interaction with a standing opponent, b2 becomes a viable reset option. Other strings seem to combo normally.


That's all. Most of this is tested without meter, on male character (Scorpion), so there's more to be seen, I'm sure.

 

[Qwark28]

http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/666891086

Here's the Raiden matchup vs Cimmerian. Worth noting that Cimmerian has been playing Raiden a bit less lately and that I haven't played SZ in a month, I was just getting back into the hang of it that day.

From the start it's another SZ from my scene, PanosZero. Watch his gameplay to see what you shouldn't do and then compare it to mine and you should get an idea of how the matchup should be played. I start playing around 15:48.

My SZ is very raw after so long so I made a lot of mistakes E.G not capitalising on D4 on hit with run S1 which is a frametrap in any range but max, not hit confirming B33, not reacting to jumps with ex ice burst and more.

 

[X-xAvOk-X]

Well, I have 3 combos set 2 took it from Wounder_Chef and I optimized with different grab enders

You can get 51%, 44% and 37%
The second combo you can end it differently with F42+BF4 and get 45%

All are meterless

 

[KoldSpecter]

Well, I have 3 combos set 2 took it from Wounder_Chef and I optimized with different grab enders

You can get 51%, 44% and 37%
The second combo you can end it differently with F42+BF4 and get 45%

All are meterless

I've tested enders and i think best is f33+backdash, cuz it sets you right where you need to place klone and shatter will hit in the next combo

 

[RM Ree]

F33, back dash, clone sounds a little slow. Then again, how many wake ups will reach that far? Seems like good info pending the match up.

Also, @Tom Brady is doing some ice statue testing. We should look into that when setting up after knockdowns, see if any unsafe enders/ set ups become safe for a bar.

 

[KoldSpecter]

F33, back dash, clone sounds a little slow. Then again, how many wake ups will reach that far? Seems like good info pending the match up.

Also, @Tom Brady is doing some ice statue testing. We should look into that when setting up after knockdowns, see if any unsafe enders/ set ups become safe for a bar.

Well, if it would be 100% safe, it would be broken. If you expecting armor wakeup, just block it, you got good distance to block any wakeup in the game, than punish and loop combos. The reason f33-backdash is good that you got just the right distance to perform shatter combos. 112-backdash also gives perfect position+it's HRND
Here's video:

 

[RM Ree]

Not to insult your intelligence, but Sub Zero has 100% safe clone setups. We actually talked about them for a while, one of them is earlier on this page (end with njp, (late) njk, clone. Doesn't mean it's broken, people are learning to deal with clone nowadays.

When I say it's not safe I mean the very character you're using can do icy slide on reaction to backdash clone, and then it's /his/ corner. The ender has its uses, I'm sure. Opponent with no meter, or bad wake up options, this ender could work well.

 

[KoldSpecter]

Not to insult your intelligence, but Sub Zero has 100% safe clone setups. We actually talked about them for a while, one of them is earlier on this page (end with njp, (late) njk, clone. Doesn't mean it's broken, people are learning to deal with clone nowadays.

When I say it's not safe I mean the very character you're using can do icy slide on reaction to backdash clone, and then it's /his/ corner. The ender has its uses, I'm sure. Opponent with no meter, or bad wake up options, this ender could work well.

Sure, i know there's safe clone setups. But what i'm talking about, safe clone setups wont give clone shatter combos, cuz clone would be too close and opponent wont bounce twice in the air and you couldto catch him after Ice burst, that's all. Neither NJP or f12 safe setups wont give u distance u need.
Watch videos Havok posted and look where clone is, it's that far for a reason (i've wrote about f33-backdash only about shatter combo situations, not regular corner combos). And i've said it would be broken cuz if SZ could do 45-50 meterless corner shatter combos and have a safe clone setup after that to loop shatter combos, if woulb be broken for sure.

 

[RM Ree]

i see what you're saying now. I think we're close to a safe shatter set up though. That late njk half step back clone is really fast. I'll test it this afternoon and if it's not viable, I'll be liking this ender a lot more.

 

[KoldSpecter]

i see what you're saying now. I think we're close to a safe shatter set up though. That late njk half step back clone is really fast. I'll test it this afternoon and if it's not viable, I'll be liking this ender a lot more.

I've been experimenting with NJP-ice burst ender, it gives a safe clone setup before enemy even hits the ground, but it's places clone too close to do a shatter combo

 

[crosshair271]

You can get the Shatter setup by ending your combo with NJP, BJP, NJK. Perfect distance for B2 or B33. My personal favorite is 1,2 for distance and faking the B2, it also hits low.

 

[RM Ree]

Just a quick note: B2 forward movement is almost equal to clone backward movement. Thought that was interesting. Tested and measured using the glowing lines on the training stage. Does anyone else use those?

Anywho! I'm noticing the clone shatter combos can be done with the clone still very close to the opponent (testing on Kung Lao, taking 1 half-step back). You can even do the shatter combos with the closest possible clone if you change b12 xx clone to 11 xx clone. You trade damage for the conversion, but at that distance you wouldn't have landed the normal b12 link anyway, so you really lose nothing. With clone at this distance, execution needs to be on point, but it's by no means difficult to the point of impracticality. This means all safe clone set ups (ending with njp, (late) njk, f12, 112) threaten 40+ damage without telegraphing the mix up, as well as placing the clone in the preferred area for the throw > freeze combos, such that SZ stays out of the corner when the throw breaks.

Also, @Tom Brady was doing some testing with the clone and how it doesn't work, opponents poking through, etc. This was based on the fact that the mix up was b2/ b33, where SZ had to be within Erron Black or Raidens poke range for the b33 to connect. We may be able to make that mix up harder for the opponent by mixing in 12 xx shatter/ ice ball for our low option and b2 or 1 ~ b2 in which we delay for the OH (note that the delay between 1 ~ b2 will make the standard b2, b2, d1, b12 xx clone... possible). The range on both b2 and 12 make any poke through clone irrelevant, save for armored specials.

What do you guys think? 42% off 12 low, 49% b2, and 36% delayd b2, all begin and end with safe clone enders, placed half-step back.

 

[Nu-Skoool]

Safe clone setups that lead to shatter are as follows;

Any string that combos into freeze, 242 njp, bjp, njk. Safe against 6 frame armored reversals. This is your go-to setup off of corner freeze combos when you haven't juggled the opponent.

Off corner clone freeze combos such as b2 b2 1,1 b12xx clone, or similar clone freeze combos, dash in then tap back, njp njk. The tiny step sub takes backwards perfectly spaces the clone.

I have tested shatter clones and you still have to confirm them otherwise you're still punishable unless you end with ex ice bomb.

The best part about these shatter combos is it can force a response out of your opponent out of fear of eating nearly 50% into the same setup. If they reversal they lose a bar and 30%, if you delay your pressure this opens up Subs original corner BnBs (b2b2 1,1, b12xxclone) for 37%, with each scenario ending into the same loopable setup.

 

[RM Ree]

So who punishes blocked shatter? Sub Zero and Raiden maybe? I know Kung Lao is too far for vortex to hit.

 

[Nu-Skoool]

I'm testing that. So far off my clone combo setup it's a just frame punish for Jax, so still 10 frames. I'm working with other ideas such as whiffing forward advancing normals to setup the right spacing, easily. Just haven't gotten around to it, been playing other games.

 

[Nu-Skoool]

Proof of concept. Enjoy

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Proof of concept. Enjoy

Wow NICE dude. How many tries did that take you? I would have forgotten what combo I was meant to be doing next like 10 times and probably dropped it more lol

 

[I GOT HANDS]

The person who thought of using a raw 1,2 as a combo starter after clone is a freaking genius. I'll trade my 1% damage for that.

 

[crosshair271]

The person who thought of using a raw 1,2 as a combo starter after clone is a freaking genius. I'll trade my 1% damage for that.

I did come up with it myself and made a video of it but I don't know if I was the first. If I was then that's cool.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I did come up with it myself and made a video of it but I don't know if I was the first. If I was then that's cool.

Yeah, you are the first person I've seen do it.

It's not that I didn't realise it would combo or anything, I just never stopped to realise that at that range, the standing jab misses, while standing safely behind the clone, then the second Low darts foward in just 5 frames, and it doesn't run in or do anything to broadcast that you aren't going for the Overhead (as you said, faking the B2). Props dude. My new low starter in the corner from behind Clone, it even combo's into Iceball.

 

[Protagonist_1]

I know this is a bit of topic but did anyone see this occur at the break this week? MIT was behind the clone and it still hit

 

[I GOT HANDS]

He connected with the clone the second he teleported behind but before attack hitbox had started, so he just got his ass froze. He was just far enough ahead of that clone for it to work. Not something you could replicate easy, but if you put a clone out like that against Scorp you gotta run in front of it asap anyway

 

[seakaybe]

I did come up with it myself and made a video of it but I don't know if I was the first. If I was then that's cool.

Do you have a link

 

[I GOT HANDS]

His other post on this page ^ slightly upwards

 

[seakaybe]

I see, thanks for that.