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Question - Kano KANO needs some buffs?

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
Either way you may be helping him get buffed more than you think. You're giving this thread lots of attention with your incessant arguing despite the fact that almost no one agrees with you. History has show that the community that cries the loudest gets fixes so your non help is actually helping.

Also Do you even play Kano? Do you know anything about the char? NONE of these idea's would put him anywhere near Raiden and would still leave him outside the top 10. I question your FG knowledge.
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
Holy shit this thread. Can we go back to the topic at hand?
Of course. I keep leaning back and fourth on the Up ball and MB Air ball suggestions of mine. Sometimes i feel they'd be a bit much, but then I play matches as Kano and get NJP'd out of EX up ball, and D3'd out of the MB Air ball. That's when I start thinking about those buffs, but then it seems like it's a bit much again.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
Of course. I keep leaning back and fourth on the Up ball and MB Air ball suggestions of mine. Sometimes i feel they'd be a bit much, but then I play matches as Kano and get NJP'd out of EX up ball, and D3'd out of the MB Air ball. That's when I start thinking about those buffs, but then it seems like it's a bit much again.
I don't think they're as needed as other fixes but it's definitely something to discuss. Atm I think air laser, choke, whiffed command grabs and ex buff are in most need of tweaking.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I'm serious Hands, I don't get it. Every community wants their character to be top tier. I don't see Reptile players saying "LEAVE OUR CHARACTER ALONE HE'S FINE". It's usually the OTHER character's communities that come in and say this. See: http://testyourmight.com/threads/kano-needs-some-buffs.53087/ But me wanting Kano to be top tier hasn't stopped me from making buff suggestions that apparently are reasonable, because nobody has directly disputed them. I pray Kano is top tier, I accept him being upper mid, and I fight to get him out of mid tier hell. Mid tier is honestly not this great place to be. You don't see NFL teams saying "Hey, we were 8-8 last year, that's right where we should be"

AND WHAT SERIOUS BUFFS? Outside of the OP, Most buffs has been reasonable. It's been "Make X safe" or "Fix Y", or even "Fix a flaw that is universal to almost every move that fits this mold". Nobody is saying "Make this normal Super plus" or "Give him a meterless vortex".
To be quite honest, you've been one of the more reasonable people in this thread. But no, not every community fights for their character to be top tier.

Reptile is LOW tier. They want buffs to compete with the mid tier, they feel they need them, and they are probably right, although the OP of that thread was as retarded as this one, it soon died down, they didn't stick to this "We need to be able to 5-5 Quan Chi NRS or balance is ruined!" narrative you guys got going. Same with Kitana. They are not asking to be made even with Raiden at all, they just want to compete.

Kenshi however was a different matter, and I think those guys are probably worse than you.

For example, my character, Sub-Zero is mid tier. I think it's very fair to say we are sitting at a similar power level to Kano, right. We aren't asking for buffs. We don't have a thread 16 pages deep whinging for buffs. We ain't saying we should be able to compete with Raiden, Quan Chi, and Kung Jin in terms of competitiveness. If you don't think the Sub-Zero comparison is fair, tell me who is, go take a look at their forums, and find me their equivalent of this thread.

That's just one example. You guys are the only midtier community who not only admit your midtier even after the downplaying, but still asking for buffs, and not just minor buffs, but asking to be made to Raiden's level of bullshit. You guys are everything that is wrong with TYM community in a nice little package for everyone to recognise

Either way you may be helping him get buffed more than you think. You're giving this thread lots of attention with your incessant arguing despite the fact that almost no one agrees with you. History has show that the community that cries the loudest gets fixes so your non help is actually helping.
Actually bro, the majority of TYM agrees Kano needs no buffs. Look at all the posts in the first few pages of this thread, before everyone left and it just became the Kano players. There is a reason this thread's poll was deleted. Now that it's just you guys left, it's become a circle jerk of like 5 Kano mains, so I'm holding it down just in case any NRS is reading it, they dont just see the same "Kano, need buffs, now plz" being regurgitated over and over without any contest. Let's be fair, that's how Kenshi got his buffs, the circlejerk exploded and nobody was arguing against Pig, however you guys don't have him, and as far as massive buffs, you guys don't em ;) You are right on one point however - you guys definitely are whinging the hardest, and its so hilariously cringeworthy to watch




Also Do you even play Kano? Do you know anything about the char? NONE of these idea's would put him anywhere near Raiden and would still leave him outside the top 10. I question your FG knowledge.
Bruh. Once again. I'm not saying The hitboxe changes, or fixing choke, will put him near Raiden's level. I'm in SUPPORT of them, saying these are buffs that would improve the depth and gameplay design of the character without hurting balance. The only statement I'm making is in response to the statements that "he should be Raiden level", you guys can't keep hiding behind this "oh but we only suggested buffs that will keep him balanced" as a response to anyone talking about the OTHER statements you guys are making about him needing to be top tier, lol.





And no, I ain't stopping, someone in here has to keep it realistic
 
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DFC

Cutthroat Truther
@I GOT HANDS
I'm not saying Kano should be buffed to Raiden's level. I'm saying that's what I want. What I want isn't what I get. I also want to win the lottery and bang supermodels. This doesn't mean I think I'm going to get them. I think Sub Zero fans would LOVE for Sub Zero to be top tier. We're fine with Kano being a solid (upper)mid tier. The debate has come from where he currently stands on the consensus tier lists, where we project him to be on future tier lists, and what it would take to keep him from reaching that Grundy fall. This is why we've seen debate on things like Overhead normals. It's simply theory at this stage to what we all think would be reasonable and what wouldn't be. We, as Kano players obviously want Kano to be competitive, and most of us would probably be glad if Kano was hilariously overbuffed. But this doesn't mean that's what we're working towards. I know I, Salt Shaker, Rude, and M2Dave have made mostly solid suggestions.

I've let it be known that I think mid-lowmid tier is not a place people should want their characters to be. Now, I would love to get back to the actual topic at hand, rather than further discuss this derailment of a topic.

@MsMiharo
I feel like Kano's Overhead B1 edges out the Buff, as it seems legitimately broken, rather than poorly designed.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
@I GOT HANDS
I'm not saying Kano should be buffed to Raiden's level. I'm saying that's what I want. What I want isn't what I get. I also want to win the lottery and bang supermodels. This doesn't mean I think I'm going to get them. I think Sub Zero fans would LOVE for Sub Zero to be top tier. We're fine with Kano being a solid (upper)mid tier. The debate has come from where he currently stands on the consensus tier lists, where we project him to be on future tier lists, and what it would take to keep him from reaching that Grundy fall. This is why we've seen debate on things like Overhead normals. It's simply theory at this stage to what we all think would be reasonable and what wouldn't be. We, as Kano players obviously want Kano to be competitive, and most of us would probably be glad if Kano was hilariously overbuffed. But this doesn't mean that's what we're working towards. I know I, Salt Shaker, Rude, and M2Dave have made mostly solid suggestions.

I've let it be known that I think mid-lowmid tier is not a place people should want their characters to be. Now, I would love to get back to the actual topic at hand, rather than further discuss this derailment of a topic.
Fair enough, I can get behind that, I do think you guys should be satisfied mid tier (I certainly am, and we both came from a similar place if you carried your main over from MK9), but what you say makes sense, and as long as you guys aren't asking for ridiculous buffs (which I agree, you aren't), then I guess it's fair to making hopeful wishes. That being said, I think it's fair of me to comment on the statements about trying to make him top tier, Salt Shaker devolved this into the argument that it's become, by constantly misdirecting and rewriting my posts for me with every response.

Ok then, I'm done for now, I'll leave your Kano thread in peace. Unless of course, Salt Shaker wants to continue stringing this out, and direct another post full of nonsense my way, then I'm right here ready to shoot em down and and catch the salt in my stopper jar :D
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Holy shit this thread. Can we go back to the topic at hand?
Every character forum has a Ra Helios. We now know who ours is. Just ignore the person and post your arguments.

Looking at the buffs realistically, Cybernetic Kano may receive an improved up laser and more block advantage on EX knives, which would help out a lot. Faster b+2, improved damage output, overhead, etc. is just wishful thinking.

Nothing else really needs to be stated.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
Every character forum has a Ra Helios. We now know who ours is. Just ignore the person and post your arguments.

Looking at the buffs realistically, Cybernetic Kano may receive an improved up laser and more block advantage on EX knives, which would help out a lot. Faster b+2, improved damage output, overhead, etc. is just wishful thinking.

Nothing else really needs to be stated.
True, everything is probably already said. I would love for b1 mixups to be truly good again though (although not as broken as before)
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
Not exactly a buff, but I'd love for EX Rib breaker to get a slightly different animation. Kinda like how EX Misawa Head Drop has him jumping higher.

Also, We must be a special board. We have TWO Ra Helios!
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
LOL M2Dave you are the Ra Helious of this entire forum. Actually, that's being unfair to Ra, you are even worse, you're the M2Dave of this forum, the truth is the harshest reality possible here, you are literally THE poster with the worst reputation on this forum. Want me to link you to where they were going in on you on Reddit the other day? Your poor reputation ain't even bound to this site, I would question my own credibility if you were agreeing with me. You hate this game, so why not quit?

We wouldn't miss you.
 
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DFC

Cutthroat Truther
So, because I have nothing better to do on a thursday early morning, I thought about a way of increasing Cybernetic's damage output without going overboard.

Decrease the scaling on all laser based moves (db1, the 1+3 in 1b31+3/b231+3). This way, Meterless combos get a damage boost that puts them over the 30% barrier(This would hopefully put 112xxdb1 B231+3 right at or just over 30%). but...
Increase the scaling on all Bomb based moves (the 2+4 in b132+4/b232+4). This would stop the 1 meter combos from going over 40%(Maybe causing the 112xxdb1 B232+4MB dash NJP B1 B1 B1 RC 112xxbf3 to be exactly 40%, up from 37%), or even increasing it just enough that the damage on these 1 bar combos remains exactly the same. You might have to increase scaling on the 32 string slightly as well, as to curtail corner damage from going too far up though. Then again, that might hurt the other two variations, unless NRS can somehow hit one string on one variation, but then have that same string remain unchanged on the other variations.

Now, in my incredibly tired state, this could be absolutely asinine, but here I am, making a suggestion for the world to see!
 
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MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
So, because I have nothing better to do on a thursday early morning, I thought about a way of increasing Cybernetic's damage output without going overboard.

Decrease the scaling on all laser based moves (db1, the 1+3 in 1b31+3/b231+3). This way, Meterless combos get a damage boost that puts them over the 30% barrier(This would hopefully put 112xxdb1 B231+3 right at or just over 30%). but...
Increase the scaling on all Bomb based moves (the 2+4 in b132+4/b232+4). This would stop the 1 meter combos from going over 40%(Maybe causing the 112xxdb1 B232+4MB dash NJP B1 B1 B1 RC 112xxbf3 to be exactly 40%, up from 37%), or even increasing it just enough that the damage on these 1 bar combos remains exactly the same. You might have to increase scaling on the 32 string slightly as well, as to curtail corner damage from going too far up though. Then again, that might hurt the other two variations, unless NRS can somehow hit one string on one variation, but then have that same string remain unchanged on the other variations.

Now, in my incredibly tired state, this could be absolutely asinine, but here I am, making a suggestion for the world to see!
I feel the gap between 1 bar and meterless combos is so slim already, not sure if this would be a great fix.
 

Dean

On The Grind
I feel like you think people are supporting you here, but we are still at zero people who responded to your call to arms, and like 2 other Kano mains have just quoted me to disagree with new statements that I've since made that he shouldn't he be buffed. But regardless, is like to point out that this was once again sarcasm, as strength in numbers is the most stupid argument possible, especially when absolutely ZERO unbiased / impartial people have disagreed with me, and the only 2 other people or so to disagree with me have literally ADMITTED their bias, but I'll come back to that.

Also, to the rest of your nonsensical argument - why do I have to argue the validity of a bunch if changes that you are unwilling to post. Your argument is absurd, you obviously don't think the hitbox fix is a significant buff that will put him on par with the upper 5 characters, so please what is the change list that you think will? And do you know why these changes are bad? Because they make him able to contest with the top 5 and almost every single match up before this, more unbalanced.





This is the definition ofersonal bias, guys. You want the character you play to be buffed even though it makes more match ups less balanced than the amount of match ups it improves. He is currently the very middle of the cast and should stay as such, the only reason you want him buffed and not everyone else, has NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE, it's literally because you play this guy and not other characters and this is a word for word admittance of it. FYI I play a character that has a massive disadvantage going into top 10 match ups too - but I would never ask to be buffed to their level, I would ask for the OP members to be nerfed rather than throw out the balance because "dis game is too hard!". So yeah, to answer your question - basically everyone who cares about a good game wouldn't want your changes, only typical idiotic TYM players who want easy wins would feel otherwise.


So I'm picking up that it's a pretty common thing amongst Kano players, to literally invent an argument an easy-to-argue point of view for anyone that disagrees with your stupidity, because arguing their actual statements is too hard and makes you look a little too foolish to be good for the downplay narrative you are trying to sell. Not once have I said he's top 5. About 20 times over, I've said he's the middle of the cast and extremely balanced.

Your lack of ability to respond to logic is hilarious however.


I don't get it. This isn't my argument at all, once again inventing statements, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here just say your comprehension sucks for the sake of this argument. You can't claim you just want hitbox fixes and the like that will him just as balanced, but also claim you want him buffed to the point of competing equally with the best, most OP characters in the game. It's one or the other guys, you can't have it both ways. I'm not arguing against hitbox fixes I'm arguing against tunnel-vision tier balancing.



And a few too little weaknesses in comparison to others. This is why buffing him throws out as many match ups as it fixes, and when we have one of the cast members in a REALLY good spot, the spot where the majority of people want to see the entirety of the cast sitting at in terms of power level, your logic for throwing this out is so one-sided and bias that to be honest, it would be beneficial if the three of you still arguing this just stopped posting entirely. It's never going to happen, you guys are willing to completely shoot and destroy your own credibility over and over in your eternal quest for easy mode, but until it does I'm going to keep exposing the flaws in your arguments and pointing holes in your one sided statements, to make sure you never get one :)


Correction - you have a REASON. Personal bias is not a valid one for changes ow ever.


The fact that you guys think that this is a bad thing is what makes this thread so adorable.



Actually dude... When there is broken / OP Characters, the definition of ok IS having a disadvantage against them. Making another character wh the rest of the game has a disadvantage against, just because you wanted this one to compete with the broken ones, is the definition of "not ok" and making a bad change. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ONLY reason you think buffing a single character to this level is balanced, is because you play that single character. Those characters need to be nerfed, or like just under 20 other characters need significant buffs to be on huge it level, do you see how ridiculous doing it your way is?

That being said, you seem like the type of player who just blames all his losses on balance instead of mistakes anyway.



You guys gonna be on the salt report 2 weeks in a row if you keep this up :D

You Completely ignore most of my argument and take other parts of my post out of context.

Reading through your drivel hurts my head.

Quick notes..

Just because I want my main to be viable in this game, doesn't make me biased.

I have constantly stresses I want him to have a little love, nothing crazy, I'm just asking for a few fixes that are clearly broken in his kit.

I have said I am ok with him being below the top tier characters, I just want him viable enough to be able to play certain characters and still have a chance based on player skill alone.

I have given my example, which you ignored. I lose to ppl consistently with Kano (online and offline) that I know I am better than. I switch to a character I use far less then Kano and beat those same people handedly. There is a reason for that.

Your argument is lame, and I don't appreciate your subtle attempts of insult layered throughout your posts.

You keeping stressing the importance of balance, that's great I don't disagree.

With that said, I just want my main to be viable in a competitive setting.

AGAIN...

I don't give two shits if the top OP characters get needed or Kano gets some love. Something needs to give.

AGAIN..

There is nothing wrong with that. Its not bias when I'm saying I want him to be a viable character in this game, that is something that makes sense for a guy that plays this character. The character you play with, you want to win with, some of these matchups are damn near impossible when playing higher level players.

I'm not being unreasonable, I'm stressing what is messed up, what could be fixed, that I'm not looking for OP buffs, etc...

I'm done wasting my time on you.

I find it funny you call out my reading comprehension but I've stated many fucking times I'm not looking for buffs that make him broken or top tier.

Being viable and being OP are two very different fucking things.

After all of that.

Your fucking argument still makes ZERO sense.

Go back to your lower tier character forum. Whatever dumbass character that may be.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Outside of the "I wanna win a tournament with him" group, he's fine.
Yea that's kind of the point. This is TYM, a competitive gaming site focused on NRS games, so it shouldn't be shocking to see a character forum want their character to be as competitive as the other half of the roster in front of him. When I show up at a local, and sweep my way to Winner's Finals, just to be abused by a Jax that I had been pwning for the last month when he was using Mileena since release, then it raises my eyebrow. It makes you say, "hey I want my character to be as good as Jax too". Dave said it best. He has very solid tools in a game where they aren't solid, and in another game he would be Top 5. But this is MKX. Competitively speaking, the current version of Kano is not enough.

So, because I have nothing better to do on a thursday early morning, I thought about a way of increasing Cybernetic's damage output without going overboard.

Decrease the scaling on all laser based moves (db1, the 1+3 in 1b31+3/b231+3). This way, Meterless combos get a damage boost that puts them over the 30% barrier(This would hopefully put 112xxdb1 B231+3 right at or just over 30%). but...
Increase the scaling on all Bomb based moves (the 2+4 in b132+4/b232+4). This would stop the 1 meter combos from going over 40%(Maybe causing the 112xxdb1 B232+4MB dash NJP B1 B1 B1 RC 112xxbf3 to be exactly 40%, up from 37%), or even increasing it just enough that the damage on these 1 bar combos remains exactly the same. You might have to increase scaling on the 32 string slightly as well, as to curtail corner damage from going too far up though. Then again, that might hurt the other two variations, unless NRS can somehow hit one string on one variation, but then have that same string remain unchanged on the other variations.

Now, in my incredibly tired state, this could be absolutely asinine, but here I am, making a suggestion for the world to see!
Not bad. Though I still think the damage is fine. Cutthroat is big on damage and I don't think the design was for Cyber to have high damage in the 1st place. I would say for sure the two Cyber specific buffs we could use is more plus frames with EX Knives on block and Air Laser upgrade, if other things don't get buffed.

More +frames on EX Knives because that's what I think it was intended to do and wasn't done right. At distance EX Knives trap so you have to block the follow up, which would change nothing about the zoning aspect of them if you gave them a few extra +. Up close you would be able to apply an extra cycle of pressure, grab, or backdash without random armor moves blowing you up. Like Cage EX Fireball and Lao EX Hat, I think it was designed to do this and failed. Since Cyber Kano doesn't have the pressure tools that they have, this will be fine because spending the bar up close still won't be as vicious as Lao or Cage spending it, but at least it will give him the poor mans mix up with true safety for the expense of a bar.

Air laser if Upball doesn't (probably won't) get real priority. For this to be a variation specific move I find it hard to imagine they envisioned it this useless. Upball should be the universal AA Special, and Air Laser should be the Cyber Special. Like Dribirut said, Jacqui's Rockets in Full Auto. It should be a reliable jump in crush, where the EX Version pops them higher for a combo. Due to Kano's design in comparison to Jacqui's is why I think combo should be at a meter bar on, but the hitbox should be a better crush on non EX than Jacqui's Rockets. This would make the move infinitely better without breaking it.

When you consider what other characters can do with similar tools, those are very reasonable requests and much needed. Both of these moves are variation specific, and would go a long way towards making Cyber Kano what he should be, without making him OP.
 
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DFC

Cutthroat Truther
I'm fine with the damage as it is. I was just thinking of a way they could up it for those who feel it is needed.
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
Does anyone remember when NRS did one of their early streams and they said that "Kano is really hard to balance. It's hard to not make him a bit overpowered"...I'm not seeing it stacked up against a lot of the other characters in the game. Maybe I GOT HANDS can let me know since he's the authority on Kano, what TYM thinks, and all around forum cop.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Does anyone remember when NRS did one of their early streams and they said that "Kano is really hard to balance. It's hard to not make him a bit overpowered"...I'm not seeing it stacked up against a lot of the other characters in the game. Maybe I GOT HANDS can let me know since he's the authority on Kano, what TYM thinks, and all around forum cop.
Lmaooo!!!!!

I remember that Kombat Kast too. Maybe in all their attempts to not make him overpowered, they made him underpowered. Which is one of the things I never understood. I come from Tekken, where 80% of the cast is tournament viable. It's hard for me to understand how characters can come out Day 1 as Raiden, Kung Jin, and Quan Chi did, while others come out like Day 1 Kitana, Shinnok, and Kenshi. Like don't they SEE they obvious difference?? Lol

Maybe Kano really is "hard to balance" after all lol.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Well, his commando choke is right up there with up laser. I think his MB Air ball is going places(south) as it's being stuffed by normals more and more often. His B1/Buff/EXBuff aren't worthless, but they're not really valuable yet. each move is way too flawed at this stage to be in the regular rotation(b1 Aside).
Ah yeah Commando Choke. Then again it's not all useless, it's a great brutality :tonyt
Cybernetic is not viable in the tournament scene. It's that simple.
So Coach Steve and Hippo are just winning because people don't know the matchup? Lol please.
You've misread. I said he needs to be left alone, aside from improving the hitbox, and making choke useful. So if anything, I'm saying he needs buffs. I just don't think he should be buffed to competing with Raiden level, word for word whats been asked for, just because these whingers can't handle being midtier
Yeah I think I took it the wrong way, too busy blowing other people up since it's fun :joker: as for Kano players asking for buffs it's seriously not a problem when you look at him compared to the rest of the cast and especially to how his tools are right now. I mean we're not asking for an overhead and 12 other buffs like the Kitana mains (coincidentally she's also a zoner but apparently she needs rushdown buffs l o l ), we're actually mainly asking for mostly fixes. We aren't asking for him to be top tier because we're not stupid, we understand and like that he's one of the best designed and most balanced characters in the game but without the few fixes we're suggesting he could end up not being able to do things he should be able to do. And not just things we think he should be able to do, things that he literally is supposed to be able to do like anti-air with up ball.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Ah yeah Commando Choke. Then again it's not all useless, it's a great brutality :tonyt

So Coach Steve and Hippo are just winning because people don't know the matchup? Lol please.

Yeah I think I took it the wrong way, too busy blowing other people up since it's fun :joker: as for Kano players asking for buffs it's seriously not a problem when you look at him compared to the rest of the cast and especially to how his tools are right now. I mean we're not asking for an overhead and 12 other buffs like the Kitana mains (coincidentally she's also a zoner but apparently she needs rushdown buffs l o l ), we're actually mainly asking for mostly fixes. We aren't asking for him to be top tier because we're not stupid, we understand and like that he's one of the best designed and most balanced characters in the game but without the few fixes we're suggesting he could end up not being able to do things he should be able to do. And not just things we think he should be able to do, things that he literally is supposed to be able to do like anti-air with up ball.
Yeah I agree. In all honestly, you are probably right - he probably DESERVES more positive changes than the ones being specified and pushed in this thread. I actually think the Kano mains are being too soft in what they are asking for, the ball should probably be improved to actually perform reliably in it's role, as well an added safestring IMO, his strings aren't crazy unsafe and easy to blow up or anything, but being a defensive character I think he needs something small but really safer than his current options, nothing crazy just a new option to throw out.

Unfortunately, you've got tards like this,
Does anyone remember when NRS did one of their early streams and they said that "Kano is really hard to balance. It's hard to not make him a bit overpowered"...I'm not seeing it stacked up against a lot of the other characters in the game. Maybe I GOT HANDS can let me know since he's the authority on Kano, what TYM thinks, and all around forum cop.
who think balancing him means getting him to a point where he's throwing down games 5-5 with Raiden and Quan Chi (which is all I've ever argued against), so you know, there will never be happiness amongst the more wishful ones in here