Question - Kano KANO needs some buffs?

[GAV]

Commando is the only Kano variation I don't play.

Hitbox, his attack hitbox is shit. NJ, B1 (CT), f33, 112.. Its not good.

I have a good pressure game in cutthroat but its because I've got really creative with his variation.

Against specific characters, that pressure is limited due to their superior kit. Raiden, Cassie for example.

Overall he isnt a viable competitive character, I just think he needs slightly tweaked to keep up with half the cast in this game.

I don't think Kano is awful but I don't think he stands a chance in the competitive scene as is, he needs a little love.

There isn't anything wrong with that.

So, you're saying - he isn't as good as pressuring as the two best pressure characters in the game, so buff his hitboxes...

...but he also has an above average zoning game, which is way better than the zoning of Cassie or Raiden.

Also, he can't zone with Quan Chi - so maybe we need to buff his projectile game so we can.

He also doesn't have the armor game of Goro - so buff that too.

That way, he can outrushdown and outzone everyone - and, if that doesn't work, he can just armor through exchanges.

Wait, a lot of characters have teleports and mixups off of them too - so give him that too.

What did I miss? Lets make his cannon-roll multi-directional, let you hold it in place any time, and let you cancel out of it into launching 50-50's.

 

[ando1184]

i never said kotal was bad, i was in the lab with him quite a bit, always thought hes perfectly fine in all variations. but how are he and kano similar in the neutral when kano can just throw knives and kotal cant?

In the neutral meaning when they are within poke range and trying to open up the opponent. I'm not referring to zoning superiority here. Kotal and Kano both have solid d1/2/3/4's that lead to + frames and tic throws. Kotal has a 6f d1(hits sweep distance) and d4, and his d4 reaches start match distance and his f1(shoulder) gets him in the opponents face for these pokes. Kano has safe lows as well(but slower) and f4/b1 to get in the same way. Once they are in they can continue poke pressure, attempt tic throw setups, and Kotal has d3 to catch players trying to jump out of this pressure while Kano has d1 that does the same thing and both characters can convert those pokes into juggle combos. So yeh, their neutral game is very similar.

 

[Error]

Ok Mr. Hands, I'll play along.

This brings back memories of darker times on the Internet.

 

[bdizzle2700]

Close thread. #kthnxbye

 

[LEGI0N47]

Dave & dribirut, I get better results with other chars too and see many of the flaws you guys don't like. And I don't even play the caliber of people you guys do. But I still like Kano the most and will continue to play him. I understand switching to win if you have the capability to place well. But I hope you guys keep him alive at least a little bit.

 

[kabelfritz]

In the neutral meaning when they are within poke range and trying to open up the opponent. I'm not referring to zoning superiority here. Kotal and Kano both have solid d1/2/3/4's that lead to + frames and tic throws. Kotal has a 6f d1(hits sweep distance) and d4, and his d4 reaches start match distance and his f1(shoulder) gets him in the opponents face for these pokes. Kano has safe lows as well(but slower) and f4/b1 to get in the same way. Once they are in they can continue poke pressure, attempt tic throw setups, and Kotal has d3 to catch players trying to jump out of this pressure while Kano has d1 that does the same thing and both characters can convert those pokes into juggle combos. So yeh, their neutral game is very similar.

how can you reduce neutral to just short range?

anyway, this discussion made me intrigued into cutthroat some more and hell that guy is cool. i havent tested it further, but some stuff that happened in matches makes me think that b1 is the perfect mash-out tool if the opponnent constantly harasses you up Close, because of its Speed backwards movement. it will also catch low block, which is likely to do for them if they expect counterpoking. i will play a lot more of this guy.

 

[SaltShaker]

I am doing much better with my 3-4 day Tanya than with Kano.

I wasn't going to be the one to say it, but umm... Lol

Told you Tanya had some potential in Pyro. Maybe not Top 5 material, but she seems good so far. Her hit n run is really good in some MU's, and she doesn't seem to have too many disadvantages of you use her defensively.

 

[GAV]

I wasn't going to be the one to say it, but umm... Lol

Told you Tanya had some potential in Pyro. Maybe not Top 5 material, but she seems good so far. Her hit n run is really good in some MU's, and she doesn't seem to have too many disadvantages of you use her defensively.

I ran into good Tanya Pyro a few days ago. That is a hassle. There's virtually no risk for her with good damage.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

So in other words, no one on either side of the argument agrees with your earlier statement about me and you have no idea why that is the case. Got it.

Uhh what? Where did you get this? Not a single person disagreed with the statements I made about you either bro, absolutely nobody responded to your call for "everyone to weigh in on how they feel about you", which is the exact prediction I was making when I said sarcastically "yeah, because the entirety of TYM is your personal dispute counsel who come to weigh in on such things when you call for them". Sheesh. Gotta take things slowly with you.

On top of that, like 4 or 5 different people have posted since then and only one of them is not a Kano player, so their opinions would hardly be the unbiased gospel here when the statements I'm making were literally concerning the Kano community. But whatever, strength in numbers and all that, sorry it didn't work out for you, can we move on from this because I don't have the energy to spell out the blatant implications being made with every single statement.

Ok Mr. Hands, I'll play along. Not talking the OP, talking our community, this thread, the content discussed in it in regards to Kano. Which suggestions did I or our community make that sounds like we are saying he should be "significantly buffed and should be able trade games with the crazy OP members of the cast"? Who has been consistently saying it? Where is it? Anywhere?

Show me where I, or the strong members of the Kano community have suggested multiple ridiculous OP buffs. Point to the overwhelming amounts of these absurd requests. Enlighten us.

So how do you want me to go about this? Do I literally have to quote posts from like a page ago where it was being said that Kano players shouldn't have to "suffer with a mid tier character", or the posts where you guys are pointing at the very top tier members of the cast and saying that you should be buffed to be able to compete with them? You know as well as I do that you've made such statements, I can quote them if you need me to. I ain't talking individual buff requests here and never have been, I didn't disagree with barely any of the proposed fixes and individual buff proposals I saw, and even the ones I did disagree with I didn't bother pointing out, I don't go digging through threads looking for every single individual button change suggestion that might be off a bit, this was never my argument in here, so stop trying to make it that. That's called a Strawman.
I'm responding to your statements about your aspirations and goals for Kano and where you think he should sit, statements like he should be competing with Raiden. And as I JUST said, if you think the hitbox fix and a useful but balanced choke is all you need to be able to do this, than by all means, forget I said anything. But you are making statements that it's unfair that he has bad match ups against top tier characters, but everyone does bro, making Kano a bad match up for everyone else just so he can compete with the top tier, is the only change I'm arguing against.

 

[ando1184]

how can you reduce neutral to just short range?

anyway, this discussion made me intrigued into cutthroat some more and hell that guy is cool. i havent tested it further, but some stuff that happened in matches makes me think that b1 is the perfect mash-out tool if the opponnent constantly harasses you up Close, because of its Speed backwards movement. it will also catch low block, which is likely to do for them if they expect counterpoking. i will play a lot more of this guy.

I'm not reducing his neutral game as close range only. I'm referring to the grapple side of it man, which was the initial comparison to begin with. At this point in the game I was pointing out that kotal's sungod variation is more of a grappler than commando Kano and commando Kano was supposed to be the essential grappler of this game. If ya wanna get into the zoning side of things I'll bring up kotals jump in 1, it hits almost 3/4 screen meaty and then he's back to being a grappler again. He can handle zoning with jump 1 and then if he nails a knockdown he can force you to block his slow ass projectile on wakeup. His walk speed allows him to get in faster too. If Kano had that walk speed he'd definitely be more of a force as a grappler. Cutthroat is really fun and f21 is a great punisher for whiffs and blocked specials.

 

[M2Dave]

Dave & dribirut, I get better results with other chars too and see many of the flaws you guys don't like. And I don't even play the caliber of people you guys do. But I still like Kano the most and will continue to play him. I understand switching to win if you have the capability to place well. But I hope you guys keep him alive at least a little bit.

There is really no point. Kano is an honest character in a dishonest fighting game.

So how do you want me to go about this? Do I literally have to quote posts from like a page ago where it was being said that Kano players shouldn't have to "suffer with a mid tier character", or the posts where you guys are pointing at the very top tier members of the cast and saying that you should be buffed to be able to compete with them? You know as well as I do that you've made such statements, I can quote them if you need me to.

Please quote these statements. In fact, I will quote one of them for you.

I have been thinking... if Cybernetic Kano had an overhead attack such as Shinnok's b+3, which is 18F and -11 on block, would the world explode? Not really. The damage he would acquire from a single-hitting overhead launcher would be under 30% with meter. What would most likely the follow up be? Perhaps (imaginary single-hitting overhead launcher), b+2,3, EX 2+4, b+1, b+2,3 xx straight ball?

Why are we Kano players so humble when Kenshi is receiving buffs every patch and Kitana fools want a launching overhead and twenty other buffs and Reptile fools keep asking for a 6F armored elbow dash and significantly better zoning?

I now want an overhead and a vastly improved up laser in the Cybernetic variation. These changes would probably make me care about the game again.

I also want Kano to be a top 10 character.

And?

Am I supposed to be ashamed of myself or something? Because I am not.

 

[Vagrant]

Overhead in cybernetic would be so sick!

Let me zone you until you sit still bro.... Now hold this run/jump into mixup.

 

[Dean]

Yeah, because the entirety of TYM is your dispute counsel who will come in and weigh in on this for you

Regardless, fairly sure that aside from the Kano mains (aka most of the people still reading this downright ridiculous thread that somehow made it to 12 pages), the majority of MKX players think Kano is one of the most balanced characters in the game at the moment. Hell even plenty of Kano players are agreeing he shouldn't be buffed. The rest of you however, are possibly the biggest whiners on these forums, you are literally complaining that you have a midtier character, it's so cringeworthy to watch this downplaying




So your argument is that because you are only stronger than half the cast, you should be brought up to the level of the top tier ones as well?

Because NRS fucked up the balancing of the very top tier characters, you think they should go ahead and throw out the balancing that they did get right, just to appease you and make your multiplayer experience less challenging, at the cost of literally making it less balanced and well-designed for the rest of the game?

Yes, it IS a good thing that he isn't stronger than the majority of the cast, the only reason you and any others who share this view don't want to see this is because you are Kano mains and its hilariously blatant. This is why the rest of the game doesn't think buffing Kano is a good change either. You want to throw out some of the good balance that we do have because you think you having no bad match ups for the character you play is a good trade for turning a bunch of balanced match ups into unfavourable ones from other players perspectives, and turning some already Kano favored match ups into absolute stomps, making the game much less balanced for the majority of the cast.



Hate to break it to you bro, but other than the top 5, the rest of the cast is not significantly ahead of Kano. The balancing is so close in this game, and yeah we should strive to get them even closer, but dude if you are losing with Kano, the majority of the time, it IS because the other player was more skilled than you. I know everyone loves being a special snowflake, and this fact can be super-hard to accept, and it's rarely your fault when you lose with Kano its because of "NRS shitty balance buff Kanoi plz", but at the end of the day, losing with a mid tier cast member, 90% of the time it's because your opponent outplayed you, and the (few) characters that it isn't, are the ones who need a nerfing.

Dude.. Him being tweaked to contend with other characters isn't a big deal.

There are WAY more people contesting your argument, then people who are for your argument.

Most of us can see he needs a little love, I, along with many others are not asking for a fucking rework of the character, just some minor tweaks to make him viable.

Yes.. I am a Kano main, so yes I want him to be on the same or near the same level playing field as other characters.

Why In the blue fuck wouldn't I want that? Nobody wants to play a character that is under matched and will consistently get beat by characters with much better kits than Kano.

Acting like Kano is just outside of the top 5 is hilarious to me by the way.

If you fix a few things with Kano, he still can't be a balanced character?

Your argument makes zero sense, and I don't understand why it bothers you so much that people can actually see that Kano has a few too many weaknesses In comparison to other characters.

I have a valid reason for why I would like to see Kano get a little love.

You, your just trying to argue that Kano is "balanced" and we don't need anymore "broken" characters.

That I, and others, should just accept the unbalanced nature of it all and find solace in knowing that Kano is a well balanced character, its ok that we are at a great disadvantage In a lot of these match ups, but its ok, Kano Is balanced.

LOL

No man.. Not ok. Your argument continues to make ZERO sense.

 

[juicepouch]

@kabelfritz what's commando's standing reset? I'm behind on my Kano knowledge apparently

 

[SaltShaker]

Uhh

But whatever, strength in numbers and all that, sorry it didn't work out for you

You were saying?

So how do you want me to go about this? Do I literally have to quote posts from like a page ago where it was being said that Kano players shouldn't have to "suffer with a mid tier character", or the posts where you guys are pointing at the very top tier members of the cast and saying that you should be buffed to be able to compete with them? You know as well as I do that you've made such statements, I can quote them if you need me to. I ain't talking individual buff requests here and never have been, I didn't disagree with barely any of the proposed fixes and individual buff proposals I saw, and even the ones I did disagree with I didn't bother pointing out, I don't go digging through threads looking for every single individual button change suggestion that might be off a bit, this was never my argument in here, so stop trying to make it that. That's called a Strawman.
I'm responding to your statements about your aspirations and goals for Kano and where you think he should sit, statements like he should be competing with Raiden. And as I JUST said, if you think the hitbox fix and a useful but balanced choke is all you need to be able to do this, than by all means, forget I said anything. But you are making statements that it's unfair that he has bad match ups against top tier characters, but everyone does bro, making Kano a bad match up for everyone else just so he can compete with the top tier, is the only change I'm arguing against.

So in other words, I asked you a direct question to list the absurd requests you say you have a problem with, and you list none. I see.

Yes I think he is a mid tier character. I've said it a hundred times. Yes I want him to be able to compete better with the Top 10 than he currently fairs, which would require slight buffs one way or another. I've said that a hundred times too. So all I'm hearing is you say you don't have a problem with almost all suggestions made, but are upset because we made the suggestions??? What? Lolz

That hole, keep digging it.

 

[Error]

@kabelfritz what's commando's standing reset? I'm behind on my Kano knowledge apparently

any non launching string into knife as an ender leaving you +7

112xxEX ball cancel j1 112xxknife it's nothing revolutionary lol

 

[kabelfritz]

@kabelfritz what's commando's standing reset? I'm behind on my Kano knowledge apparently

sorry no reset from a juggle of course. i meant the stagger strings and ending a ground combo with knives.

 

[kabelfritz]

I'm not reducing his neutral game as close range only. I'm referring to the grapple side of it man, which was the initial comparison to begin with. At this point in the game I was pointing out that kotal's sungod variation is more of a grappler than commando Kano and commando Kano was supposed to be the essential grappler of this game. If ya wanna get into the zoning side of things I'll bring up kotals jump in 1, it hits almost 3/4 screen meaty and then he's back to being a grappler again. He can handle zoning with jump 1 and then if he nails a knockdown he can force you to block his slow ass projectile on wakeup. His walk speed allows him to get in faster too. If Kano had that walk speed he'd definitely be more of a force as a grappler. Cutthroat is really fun and f21 is a great punisher for whiffs and blocked specials.

how do you know kano was supposed to be THE grappler? i mean they obviously gave kotal the tools too, even though his parry doesnt help that much against strings. and about that ji1, of course you have that in mind when you throw knives. d2 is a very good friend of kano.

 

[ando1184]

how do you know kano was supposed to be THE grappler? i mean they obviously gave kotal the tools too, even though his parry doesnt help that much against strings. and about that ji1, of course you have that in mind when you throw knives. d2 is a very good friend of kano.

Aside from his universal moves, he was given nothing but grappler-esc moves. So he is the typical example of a grapple character and at first glance fits the bill.
Look bud we can go back n forth about this all the day but the bottom line is you see him your way and I see him mine. If ya wanna discuss this more just PM me.

Edit: add me on psn and we can go into practice and I can give a visual example of why I have these opinions.

 

[Prinz]

Choke +1 on block, more tick throws, old b1 for commando Kano.

 

[Dean]

So, you're saying - he isn't as good as pressuring as the two best pressure characters in the game, so buff his hitboxes...

...but he also has an above average zoning game, which is way better than the zoning of Cassie or Raiden.

Also, he can't zone with Quan Chi - so maybe we need to buff his projectile game so we can.

He also doesn't have the armor game of Goro - so buff that too.

That way, he can outrushdown and outzone everyone - and, if that doesn't work, he can just armor through exchanges.

Wait, a lot of characters have teleports and mixups off of them too - so give him that too.

What did I miss? Lets make his cannon-roll multi-directional, let you hold it in place any time, and let you cancel out of it into launching 50-50's.

Sigh..

Those were just examples.

Against most characters he struggles, one way or another.

Kano has blatent flaws in his game that keeps him from being a viable threat in most matchups.

The few fixes that he needs would still keep him balanced, his kit would still be below the top tier characters right now, but at least he would have a chance to beat other characters with player skill involved.

Right now I'm losing to people, offline and online that I know I am better than. I switch characters that I have spent far less time with and beat them handedly.

That is all the proof I need, I'm not suggesting he be reworked so that he is broken. I'm suggesting a few things be fixed that would help establish a viable defense against these characters that are way over powered.

Those characters would still have the advantage, right now, as is, that advantage is far to great.

All I'm saying.

 

[ando1184]

Choke +1 on block, more tick throws, old b1 for commando Kano.

Kano's prepatch b1 felt like Street Fighter 3 Hugo's Standing MP. I do wish it was still like that because this variation could use the extra pressure too. B1 is still great now but prepatch really helped commando variation, given it's current state.

 

[ando1184]

Sigh..

Those were just examples.

Against most characters he struggles, one way or another.

Kano has blatent flaws in his game that keeps him from being a viable threat in most matchups.

The few fixes that he needs would still keep him balanced, his kit would still be below the top tier characters right now, but at least he would have a chance to beat other characters with player skill involved.

Right now I'm losing to people, offline and online that I know I am better than. I switch characters that I have spent far less time with and beat them handedly.

That is all the proof I need, I'm not suggesting he be reworked so that he is broken. I'm suggesting a few things be fixed that would help establish a viable defense against these characters that are way over powered.

Those characters would still have the advantage, right now, as is, that advantage is far to great.

All I'm saying.

@I GOT HANDS THIS RIGHT HERE!!!! Look, stop your useless trolling because you honestly don't agree with any reason or logic we have. You don't have any respect towards us and are only here to troll the thread and don't understand where we are coming from because you obviously dont play the character and haven't dissected him in and out like the rest of us have. Now that being said, kindly get lost.

 

[DFC]

So now that I'm not stuck using a touch keypad on a smartphone, I feel like I can post something resembling coherent thought.

Kano is a Mid to Low-mid character. Some rate him higher, some rate him lower. I rate him squarely in the middle of mid tier. Kano DOES have plenty of tools. He has a solid to fantastic projectile(pending on variation), strong pokes, safe strings, and a "divekick" of sorts that activates in one frame and wins most air to air battles. My thoughts(as wrong as they may be), are that while He is very Toolsy, Kano is not the sum of his parts. He is truly the Jack of All Trades, master of none(unless you play Cyber, where he can excel in Zoning. Not a lockdown Zoner though). The kind of player you can give to a beginner to get comfortable with most aspects of the game. He's the kind of player that when you play at an intermediate level can certainly do well. But in the upper echelon he's going to fall flat in most categories. Players simply have to put in much more effort and hard work for what seems to lead to less payoff than playing a Quan Chi or what-have-you.

When it comes to character adjustments, I don't think you can throw too much at him, for the sake of all the characters below him needing just as much, if not more. My goal for this balance isn't to make him a dominant top character(though that's obviously what I'd want, I played Stryker and Grundy), but it's to have him be able to compete with the top 10, and make him an option rather than a throwaway at the top levels. But I should stress that throwing buffs and fixes Kano's way does NOT mean that other characters are going to receive less or no buffs/fixes at all. That cannot be said enough, because certain people look at Kano in a vaccum, rather than where he is. In a cast of 24+ other characters, each having 3 variations. So without further ado, here is what I, the voice of few(if any) think would be acceptable. Not perfect, not overbearing, but reasonable. Feel free to agree or disagree all you want.

Universal:
Duration of EX Up Ball armor extended. this move trades way too often with moves it's designed to beat.
(MAYBE) A single hit of armor on the MB Air Ball. I've personally been hit with everything to nullify this move's usage against anyone that knows about it.

Cutthroat:
B1 Hitbox fix. It's simply at a state where it's terrible at best, broken at worst. Nobody has any real reason to fear it.
DD3 Health loss decrease. 13.5% is simply a silly number, especially given the unsafe nature of the move itself. I'd personally put this at anywhere between 8-10%.
EXDD3 Fix. You are spending a bar of meter on a damage buff, but getting touched completely nullifies it. This needs to be addressed, simply put. I only feel comfortable using this when I have a (Correct me if I'm wrong) 2-frame link, and that's after the aforementioned B1 having to connect.

Cybernetic:
Up laser. Do something, anything. Make it into an attacking teleport, a buff where he uses his Australian sleeze to make him slippery so he falls out of combos, make it a temporary stun increase to Eye laser, or even just make the move useful! The fact that I trust just about any move in Cybernetic's arsenal to Anti Air before this designated Anti Air move is telling.

knife/EX knife pushback/chip. This one I'm not so huge on, but I've heard more than a few reasonable suggestions about a slight chip and/or damage increase to these moves.

Commando:
Make Choke Safe on block, and Plus on hit. As it stands, this is the second most useless move in his game, and it's not the worst because it Anti-Airs better than Up laser.

Command Grabs need a priority check. This is universal for almost all command grabs in the game. Way too often does this move trade or whiff on slightly lowered hitboxes. Erron Black has his really strong 211xxgrab and 21122xxgrab, and Jason has his strong B1xxgrab tick setups(or whatever they'd be). Kano doesn't necessarily need something like this, but they most certainly need to stop these grabs from trading and whiffing. ESPECIALLY if the grabber is using armor.

Well, that's my thing. Feel free to discuss it. Or ignore it. I just wanted to get that out there, and I know I'm not good with putting thoughts into sentences that convey what I'm saying.

#BuffKano
#BringBackB1

 

[kabelfritz]

Aside from his universal moves, he was given nothing but grappler-esc moves. So he is the typical example of a grapple character and at first glance fits the bill.
Look bud we can go back n forth about this all the day but the bottom line is you see him your way and I see him mine. If ya wanna discuss this more just PM me.

Edit: add me on psn and we can go into practice and I can give a visual example of why I have these opinions.

are you in europe?