Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GM Match Ups

[xQUANTUMx]

Fuck his block strings. Take the last hit of that 214 string like a man and get out of it.

Lol true, that only gets you so far

 

[RyuKazuya]

i think kenshi might get sub zero in a bad matchup or at least a match up that isnt that good let me explain you why i think that. Almost every projectile kenshi has cannot be stopped by subs ice clone. Its not like other projectiles that will be blocked by the clone.
Kenjutsu for instance has a certain (bf 3 ) that goes full screen. It will not be stopped by the clone. You can duck it and sometimes jump over it if you time it right. But once you get hit or block the move your ice clone disappears. Which means as kenshi you are not that afraid to get closer to sub. Well imo

 

[ZeZe]

Somebody pls tell me how good he is against Tanya. From what I've heard he has 0 chances against good Tanya player. Anybody had a chance to check?

 

[Knoterror]

Always backdash or armor in the b12*4 gap. Makes life a hell of a lot easier.


Can't she reversal ex Gun when you cancel a string into a clone?

Nope. In fact, you can punish her for trying it. They're slow enough that the clone takes the first shot and you recover in time to low profile the rest.

EX flip kick or even EX nut punch doesn't have the range and Glow Kick gets blocked in time. I believe the only option is instant air guns as they can pass through clone at a certain height but that's obviously not entirely practical and not worth the risk.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

As of late, Cassie (Hollywood + Spec ops) has been giving me a lot of trouble. The reach on her b1 is stupid good, which if she catches you she can do her bnb into nut putch (Hollywood) or put you into the corner and call her missiles (Spec ops). Or if you block she can end her b124 string and be +1 on block, which she then can check you with a d3 and do her b124 string again. Once, she has a good life lead, I find it hard to comeback. All she has to do is move back and way for a opening for b124.

There is also Scorpion, but we know how good he is, specially online. I Can't properly punish or not be hit by his Jik into his block strings.

As a Cassie (and a day 1 sub) player... Cassie (hollywood) shouldn't be a problem for sub zero as she HAS to get in.

She can NOT zone in this matchup (Hollywood). Remember that. You can win all trades with regular ice blast provided you can get it off before the bullet hits you... or to be sure swallow the bullets with ex ice blast.

You can also armor the last hit of b124.

B12 (armor here) 4.

 

[Vagrant]

I feel like Hellfire Scorpion does fine against GM SZ. I can sit back and play the hellfire game if I don't like the threat of clone. If SZ makes a mistake or guesses wrong on an unsafe mixup, scorpion can punish especially hard. SZ still dominates in the corner but props to SZ if he can push and keep scorpion there.

This feels even steven right now to me. Maybe slight adv for scorp. Maybe I'm seeing it dead wrong and SZ blows up scorp but right now I'd say it looks even.

 

[RM Ree]

For GM SZ/ Hellfire Scorpion corner game, njp falling njk ender, clone immediate jip beat just about everything Scorpion can do but block. Ex teleport hits clone and freezes, ex slide whiffs, jip interrupts teleport. Anyone else have tech for this?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

It's not just Hellfire specific dee, my advice about JiP on Scorpion works on every single variation, his only option is to try land an uppercut, which will probably fail as well. So any attempts at getting out using meter or armour will backfire heavily on him, into full combo from many of them.

Getting Scorp in the corner gives a massive advantage, just keep mixing him up, it's really safe for you.

 

[Braindead]

It's not just Hellfire specific dee, my advice about JiP on Scorpion works on every single variation, his only option is to try land an uppercut, which will probably fail as well. So any attempts at getting out using meter or armour will backfire heavily on him, into full combo from many of them.

Getting Scorp in the corner gives a massive advantage, just keep mixing him up, it's really safe for you.

Can't he jump back kick into teleport into a full combo? I know AAing seems weak in this game but I really don't suggest doing JIPs as a strategy. A good player with good spacing will most likely than not blow up your jumping with trip guarding or jump back kicks or actually manage to AA you.

 

[RM Ree]

I think given the set up, SZ jip is too far above Scorpions jbk to really be a threat.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Thanks for the novel. Again, I never said not to use F421+3. I was merely stating possibilities for the people complaining about getting mid screen resets with no frame adv. But please, explain the "strengths" that make a mid screen reset better than a corner reset beyond the damage increase. Spending precious meter on Ex hammer armor when they counter attack after the reset?

What do you mean with good spacing? This is if they are waking up in the corner with a clone in front of them, there is just no way out, BJK doesn't work either it's not even close.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

I feel like Hellfire Scorpion does fine against GM SZ. I can sit back and play the hellfire game if I don't like the threat of clone. If SZ makes a mistake or guesses wrong on an unsafe mixup, scorpion can punish especially hard. SZ still dominates in the corner but props to SZ if he can push and keep scorpion there.

This feels even steven right now to me. Maybe slight adv for scorp. Maybe I'm seeing it dead wrong and SZ blows up scorp but right now I'd say it looks even.

this is one of my fav matchups.

 

[Vagrant]

this is one of my fav matchups.

Yeah I've had experience with you, Semi Evil Ryu, Truth, and Detroit Ballin. Each time I've felt that scorpion deals with clone well (until the corner. lol).

 

[xQUANTUMx]

dats where he lives mang

 

[GLoRToR]

vs Kitanna

 

[I GOT HANDS]

And his name is Sub Zeero

 

[llabslb]

I have trouble with a Kenshi match up, you can imagine why

 

[Helmut]

Anyone have any tips on Piercing Mileena matchup online. I lost a lot to her last night. She punishes my clone with the teleport kick and combine that with her projectiles it tough to zone her. If I get her trapped in the corner and try to get offense going it often gets blown up by the EX roll. So at midscreen I felt helpless and even the corner game was a struggle to apply standard grandmaster pressure. The best scenario seemed to be to try and bait her EX roll, standard roll and teleports then try to punish. For online what is everyone finding the best punish for those specials. The roll I can punish majority of the time, but the teleport seems so safe online. Grandmaster really shines against pure rushdown characters, but she really has a great mix of rushdown, and zoning so I am a little bit at a loss for how to handle her.

Also I was able to freeze her with my clone a few times when she rolled, but what is best option when you freeze someone low to the ground like that. Happens with Scorpions takedown move as well. I end up just throwing them, but clearly that is not the best damage. Maybe for Mileena do b33 iceball since she is female character? Thanks in advance for any tips on this match up.

 

[RM Ree]

I actually struggle with this match up too. When she's caught in clone while rolling, b2 whiffs for whatever reason. And b33 xx ice ball seems like a poor punish. Maybe jnp would hit? I'll look into this more when I get a chance to hit the lab.

 

[Helmut]

I actually struggle with this match up too. When she's caught in clone while rolling, b2 whiffs for whatever reason. And b33 xx ice ball seems like a poor punish. Maybe jnp would hit? I'll look into this more when I get a chance to hit the lab.

I tried Njp on ball roll frozen Melinna and it whiffs. I havent tried it in the lab though only in a match so maybe I am miss timing it. Uppercut even whiffs. Maybe F42(1+2) Its so frustrating to stop that roll with the clone and get nothing out of it LOL

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I tried Njp on ball roll frozen Melinna and it whiffs. I havent tried it in the lab though only in a match so maybe I am miss timing it. Uppercut even whiffs. Maybe F42(1+2) Its so frustrating to stop that roll with the clone and get nothing out of it LOL

You recognise their mistake, and then you quickly dash in either direction, reverse and immediately jump in with a Ji1 (dash away for directional carry, dash towards and cross up for backwards-carry). Connects on ridiculously low hitboxes, they have zero grav because they havent left the ground, and unfortunately for them you are Sub Zero and you've just 242'd em for full combo punish off a low profile roll attack, and they just found themselves -25%, and in the corner waking up off an untechable Slide, with a Klone in front of them and a 50.50 coming at them, all because they thought pressing Roll midscreen was ok

Then you thank @Braindead for being an Unbreakable scrub but still finding our optimal punish

 

[Helmut]

You recognise their mistake, and then you quickly dash in either direction, reverse and immediately jump in with a Ji1 (dash away for directional carry, dash towards and cross up for backwards-carry). Connects on ridiculously low hitboxes, they have zero grav because they havent left the ground, and unfortunately for them you are Sub Zero and you've just 242'd em for full combo punish off a low profile roll attack, and they just found themselves -25%, and in the corner waking up off an untechable Slide, with a Klone in front of them and a 50.50 coming at them, all because they thought pressing Roll midscreen was ok

Then you thank @Braindead for being an Unbreakable scrub but still finding our optimal punish

Awesome! Even without the jump in punch the last two hits of 242 connects which I never considered would. The jump in looks like it still has some whiff potential so I may just start with a standard 242 for now. I watched some online footage of cowboy vs saltface, and it looks like he was landing the b2 if he backed up a little. Mileena is starting to be the most annoying character to play against for me online. She gets away with so much unsafe moves online it seems like. Now if I can just start punishing those random teleport kicks to my face. Thanks for sharing a good solution on the low profile freeze

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Awesome! Even without the jump in punch the last two hits of 242 connects which I never considered would. The jump in looks like it still has some whiff potential so I may just start with a standard 242 for now. I watched some online footage of cowboy vs saltface, and it looks like he was landing the b2 if he backed up a little. Mileena is starting to be the most annoying character to play against for me online. She gets away with so much unsafe moves online it seems like. Now if I can just start punishing those random teleport kicks to my face. Thanks for sharing a good solution on the low profile freeze

Yeah, I wouldn't bother trying to freeze punish with a backdash into Ji1 while you are online until you are extremely comfortable with it, however it is something you should practice making sure you can nail offline. Just set Mileena to standard roll and it's easy to learn, and not hard to land in local as you might think (not worth trying online tho). Practice wall-carrying in either direction off the freeze, As Braindead showed in his video, you can just punish by whiffing the 2 of the 242 screen, but for optimal play you should try landing that Ji1, its stupid online, but lands really natural offline and turns into that full combo punish. Worth practicing for a few minutes IMO so much easier than so many other things we have to do

EDIT: holy fuck redundancy in my post, ill fix this up in the morn when I can think a bit better, but you get what I'm saying

 

[Helmut]

Yeah, I wouldn't bother trying to freeze punish with a backdash into Ji1 while you are online until you are extremely comfortable with it, however it is something you should practice making sure you can nail offline. Just set Mileena to standard roll and it's easy to learn, and not hard to land in local as you might think (not worth trying online tho). Practice wall-carrying in either direction off the freeze, As Braindead showed in his video, you can just punish by whiffing the 2 of the 242 screen, but for optimal play you should try landing that Ji1, its stupid online, but lands really natural offline and turns into that full combo punish. Worth practicing for a few minutes IMO so much easier than so many other things we have to do

EDIT: holy fuck redundancy in my post, ill fix this up in the morn when I can think a bit better, but you get what I'm saying

No worries. All the info is helpful. Unfortunately I dont have a local scene to play where I live so playing online as a casual is all I have. I have to optimize a lot of my combos because of this. For wall carry I practiced for quite a bit doing the run cancel 123 slide, and I could nail it in practice pretty good. Once I get into a match though I either get nervous or there is input delay where I drop it. Its more likely a case of getting over excited and not inputting correctly. I end up just run cancelling into f33 which knocks them pretty far into the corner and a little less damage. The drawback is I have to run up to them to start applying pressure vs the other midscreen combos where you are right on top of them at the end of the combo. I may go back and try to practice the f42 slide carry since that seemed a little easier to execute for some reason.

 

[Tom Brady]

I've recently changed my mind on a lot of mu's