Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GM Match Ups

[Endeavor]

I haven't actually seen a thread like this here in the forums and yes, I know the game is still new and things are bound to change as long as NRS keeps patching, adjusting, and adding characters to the game but I feel the game has been out long enough. At the very least long enough to speculate and give some solid, and helpful tips about some of GM subs match ups, both good and bad. If this is already an on going thing somewhere in these forums then just delete this thread all together. Having said that, if someone makes a double post, or asks a question that has already been answered or talks about something that's already been discussed please do not bite that persons head off, or tell them "Read the thread". We are all here to help one another as both NRS players and Sub-Zero players. If you see someone asking or talking about something that has already been answered or discussed, simply answer it again, or quote their post and answer their post with a link to the answer. Now its match up time discuss and enjoy.
@Tom Brady
@Denzell
@Qwark28
@RunwayMafia
@Rebelo
@ and all other Sub-Zero mains and players.

vs Cassie

vs D'Vorah

vs Ermac

vs Erron Black

vs Ferra/Torr

vs Goro

vs Jaqui

vs Jax

vs Jason

vs Johnny Cage

vs Kano

vs Kenshi

vs Kitanna

vs Kotal Khan

vs Kung Jin

vs Kung Lao

vs Lui Kang

vs Mileena

vs Predator

vs Quan-Chi

vs Raiden

vs Reptile

vs Scorpion

vs Shinnok

vs Sonya

vs Sub-Zero

vs Takeda

vs Tanya

vs Tremor

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Am I the only one having serious trouble in the Raiden match up?

 

[Endeavor]

Idk I havent fought a raiden that he been able to make me hate him, usually its the other way around, but I'll try to provide whatever helpfulness I can. There are a lot about match ups I haven't dealt with so Im sorry if what I offer doesn't work for you. That being said not to sound like a broken record but I usually just force him to the corner and kill him there. On offense just keep mixing him up since thats all the game is anyway, and everything you do make sure its into a hard knock down safe clone set up.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I haven't been using Grandmaster against him, and even then the games I've won have been from getting him into the corner. Maybe it will go easier now that I'm back to maining GM.

I just feel my main problem is that his combo's hit so hard even off a wake up, I feel like if he gets 2 connects it's GG because he can just zone the rest or chip damage a shitload, and his normals feel very hard to punish because of their frames and often range, and his mix-up game is so sick, and just due to the nature of the character, he ALWAYS seems to have meter. I'd love any advice I can get on this match up

 

[Endeavor]

I haven't been using Grandmaster against him, and even then the games I've won have been from getting him into the corner. Maybe it will go easier now that I'm back to maining GM.

I just feel my main problem is that his combo's hit so hard even off a wake up, I feel like if he gets 2 connects it's GG because he can just zone the rest or chip damage a shitload, and his normals feel very hard to punish because of their frames and often range, and his mix-up game is so sick, and just due to the nature of the character, he ALWAYS seems to have meter. I'd love any advice I can get on this match up

What variation of Raiden? Im assuming you mean TG right?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Yup

 

[Endeavor]

Yup

Hm Idk man, I wish I could help you more but my experience against thunder god is limited to Online, and thats never a good source especially due to the net code being as bad as it is. But Ill tell you one thing, the corner is your best friend. Drive him there as GM and life get a whole lot easier. As for zoning, I think GM beats him there. Close toss does a lot on hit, and staying about half screen distance from him lowers that about of Elect balls he can throw.

 

[Creepy00]

As of late, Cassie (Hollywood + Spec ops) has been giving me a lot of trouble. The reach on her b1 is stupid good, which if she catches you she can do her bnb into nut putch (Hollywood) or put you into the corner and call her missiles (Spec ops). Or if you block she can end her b124 string and be +1 on block, which she then can check you with a d3 and do her b124 string again. Once, she has a good life lead, I find it hard to comeback. All she has to do is move back and way for a opening for b124.

There is also Scorpion, but we know how good he is, specially online. I Can't properly punish or not be hit by his Jik into his block strings.

 

[Knoterror]

As of late, Cassie (Hollywood + Spec ops) has been giving me a lot of trouble. The reach on her b1 is stupid good, which if she catches you she can do her bnb into nut putch (Hollywood) or put you into the corner and call her missiles (Spec ops). Or if you block she can end her b124 string and be +1 on block, which she then can check you with a d3 and do her b124 string again. Once, she has a good life lead, I find it hard to comeback. All she has to do is move back and way for a opening for b124.

There is also Scorpion, but we know how good he is, specially online. I Can't properly punish or not be hit by his Jik into his block strings.

B124 has an armorable/backdashable gap between 2 and 4.

I have immense experience with Cassie outside of Spec Ops. I'll do a write up later. Short version is, it's a really bad MU for her. She has no options to reversal clone cancels. Free clones all day. It's pretty analagous to Sub vs Johnny in MK9. You can do a great job keeping her away with clones, but if she happens to get in, it could be game over.

 

[RVB]

As of late, Cassie (Hollywood + Spec ops) has been giving me a lot of trouble. The reach on her b1 is stupid good, which if she catches you she can do her bnb into nut putch (Hollywood) or put you into the corner and call her missiles (Spec ops). Or if you block she can end her b124 string and be +1 on block, which she then can check you with a d3 and do her b124 string again. Once, she has a good life lead, I find it hard to comeback. All she has to do is move back and way for a opening for b124.

There is also Scorpion, but we know how good he is, specially online. I Can't properly punish or not be hit by his Jik into his block strings.

My advice would be to play neutral after clone and shatter it before the clone disappears if Cassie wants in on you u need to make that really hard for her, respect her range and play footsies.
General stuff I know but it makes a lot of difference if you apply the above.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

There is also Scorpion, but we know how good he is, specially online. I Can't properly punish or not be hit by his Jik into his block strings.

Ok this is one match up I DO have no trouble with. Just get Scorpion in the corner, you have a massive advantage. Far more so than against usual characters.

Just hard knockdown, clone, and then, Jump in Punch . You cancel every single Special of his, except for his EX Slide, which whiffs and is an easy full combo punish. Ex teleport leaves him frozen by the clone. Your JiP beats out his Uppercut as well. His only other is to block well on the 50/50, any wake up he does just guarantees you a free combo, and I can guarantee almost all will just sink their meter trying different escapes, each time giving you a free combo. Even if they do learn, you still have the massive advantage of being completely safe from all his wake ups and specials. I might be missing something here, but in my experience I haven't had a single Scorpion escape this any other way than blocking a 50/50, and even then it's not guaranteed.

Now, getting him in the corner itself depends on the player, if you are having trouble with getting specific Scorpion playstyles (there is such a variation to how the character is played amongst its community) then let me know and I'll do my best to give advice

 

[Endeavor]

Idk I find it a bit tough to deal with scorp myself. Hellfire can put you in block stun for years and Inferno is hella Yolo. But personally feel like Sub has got to be patient and wait for him to hang himself, and then punish him all the way into the corner. Once there its not too bad, but do be too overzealous cause one right teleport and he's out.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

If you HKD, Clone, then immediately JiP, even Ex-Teleport on the wake up will get caught and frozen in the clone, then he eats a full combo. Being over zealous is a good thing vs Scorp in the corner. He can teleport after blocking a 50/50 and dodge the clone, but as long as you hit confirm your low starter, it's just another full punish. It's a different story with lag of course, but with a good connection/local, his teleport is the least of your worries

 

[RM Ree]

@I GOT HANDS, can we organize the posts by a timeline of sorts? Like discuss a new character weekly so we don't have to jump around so much? It's make it easier to update the OP as well.

 

[Endeavor]

@I GOT HANDS, can we organize the posts by a timeline of sorts? Like discuss a new character weekly so we don't have to jump around so much? It's make it easier to update the OP as well.

That sounds like a great idea. I mean if we are going to do that I think we should go from character to character in alphabetical order.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

No worries, would be good to make a little spoiler under each character and add all match-up specific tips beneath it it too. I don't see a point to going in alphabetically order while we are discussing it though, as people might not have anything to contribute about say Cassie till say 2 months from now when someone has some breakthrough, while discussion about match up info for Takeda that we do know, has to be held off for weeks for the sake of alphabetizing? I mean honestly, I think just putting information down at this point is the way to go

 

[Endeavor]

No worries, would be good to make a little spoiler under each character and add all match-up specific tips beneath it it too. I don't see a point to going in alphabetically order while we are discussing it though, as people might not have anything to contribute about say Cassie till say 2 months from now when someone has some breakthrough, while discussion about match up info for Takeda that we do know, has to be held off for weeks for the sake of alphabetizing? I mean honestly, I think just putting information down at this point is the way to go

Alright sounds like a plan

 

[RM Ree]

Sounds reasonable. I've got some Raiden match up knowledge then, at least for his reversals. I've had a lot of luck using D3/ D4 on his wake ups. It low profiles under his 2 best options and allows for a punish free of block stun.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Sounds reasonable. I've got some Raiden match up knowledge then, at least for his reversals. I've had a lot of luck using D3/ D4 on his wake ups. It low profiles under his 2 best options and allows for a punish free of block stun.

Yup you are right, it low profiles against Shocker and Vicinity Burst, two combo starters. Thunder Fly and Rising Thunder still catch you and have armour, although Thunderfly doesn't lead into combo, does Rising Thunder?

I'm thinking Cryomancer might be a valid option against Raiden. Considering it's so easy for him to punish a clone with 1 bar of meter Shocker goes straight through a Clone Cancel, and cryomancer's EX-Hammer punishes any armored wake up for 33% damage

 

[Deezxnutz]

Does anyone have issues with the Tanya MU? I was having a rough time against a friend's Tanya today and I didn't know how to punish Ex Teleport, her air mobility made it difficult to try zoning with Iceballs and I had a hard time keeping her in the corner due to her teleports even if I did read it coming. I dunno much about the character herselfeither which made the set even rougher.

 

[MadPropz101]

Remove clone from game

inb4 lvl up lel

 

[Qwark28]

Gonna write a few things. I happen to play Nivek and Cimmerian's Raidens pretty much every week.

 

[Braindead]

As of late, Cassie (Hollywood + Spec ops) has been giving me a lot of trouble. The reach on her b1 is stupid good, which if she catches you she can do her bnb into nut putch (Hollywood) or put you into the corner and call her missiles (Spec ops). Or if you block she can end her b124 string and be +1 on block, which she then can check you with a d3 and do her b124 string again. Once, she has a good life lead, I find it hard to comeback. All she has to do is move back and way for a opening for b124.

There is also Scorpion, but we know how good he is, specially online. I Can't properly punish or not be hit by his Jik into his block strings.

Always backdash or armor in the b12*4 gap. Makes life a hell of a lot easier.

B124 has an armorable/backdashable gap between 2 and 4.

I have immense experience with Cassie outside of Spec Ops. I'll do a write up later. Short version is, it's a really bad MU for her. She has no options to reversal clone cancels. Free clones all day. It's pretty analagous to Sub vs Johnny in MK9. You can do a great job keeping her away with clones, but if she happens to get in, it could be game over.

Can't she reversal ex Gun when you cancel a string into a clone?

 

[xQUANTUMx]

I agree with @Knoterror, a Cassie that isn't spec ops has a rough time against sub. She can't build meter because she shouldn't be touching him, therefore a trade is always in his favor esp if she's trying to break the clone with akimbo. She can air akimbo but sub still has the advantage. Subs need to play hella lame here. The reason they go to spec ops is for the setups and rockets force subzero to move.

 

[Braindead]

Idk I find it a bit tough to deal with scorp myself. Hellfire can put you in block stun for years and Inferno is hella Yolo. But personally feel like Sub has got to be patient and wait for him to hang himself, and then punish him all the way into the corner. Once there its not too bad, but do be too overzealous cause one right teleport and he's out.

Fuck his block strings. Take the last hit of that 214 string like a man and get out of it.