General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Second Saint]

Hey guys I just won my second CIS ESL with Kotal, heres footage http://www.twitch.tv/netherrealm/v/5246831

Quater vs Liu Kang at 33:31
Semis vs Takeda at 1:32:15
Finals vs Cassie at 1:46:30

Keep in mind we're playing on PC and its still unpatched (Liu Kang infinite is in etc) b/c High Voltage is that awesome

Also netcode on PC is not that great

Watching this, it seems like you just dominated anyone that couldn't zone you out, good job on that. Also, you seem to use NJK over NJP, which now that I see someone do it makes total sense to me. I get frustrated at Kotal's njp because it'll often miss even if I make the right read and they are literally right under me.

I was hoping to see you do some of those optimal combos you've posted in the combo thread, but well, it is online after all. Great games.

 

[FrozenSun]

it's not that difficult

just throw, then run immediately and do a d1 at point blank or f2 from its max range

Oh ok, don't why I figured it was something obscure but it's simple indeed. Got my things mixed up I guess.
Thx

 

[Second Saint]

Oh ok, don't why I figured it was something obscure but it's simple indeed. Got my things mixed up I guess.
Thx

Also, you've got enough time and distance after a throw to put up a sun ray. Even against teleport characters if I recall.

 

[cyke_out]

So which Kotal players should I look out to watch during combo breaker? I saw pnut and Rico suave were in pools. Didn't see mr aquaman. Any other Kotal representatives attending?

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@Cyke, I am. First time playing on PS4 pad though, so we'll see. ECT after that.

 

[RYX]

I honestly cannot deal with really mobile people as Kotal

Takeda and Lao give me the hardest times :<

 

[Qwark28]

I honestly cannot deal with really mobile people as Kotal

Takeda and Lao give me the hardest times :<

That mobility is why it's generally easy to clip them.

He generally loses to people who destroy him with easy punishes and rush him down better than he does, lao for example ex spins everything in buzzsaw.

 

[RYX]

That mobility is why it's generally easy to clip them.

He generally loses to people who destroy him with easy punishes and rush him down better than he does, lao for example ex spins everything in buzzsaw.

i know for a fact i'm playing the takeda match up wrong because trying to backdash/deal with teleport shenanigans online is a headache

but Lao is just a nightmare, makes me want to throw my controller

 

[RYX]

i kind of want to open a discussion on what kotal kahn "needs" because that other buff thread is horrible but i don't want to invite a shitstorm either

i guess it's reasonable NRS wants to be careful with him because he has a lot of tools in his kit, but he feels a little too non-cohesive for me to enjoy for long periods of time, so here's what i'd like to see as a start;

- b14 made less - on block (would -6 be too safe?)
- Sun Choke does more damage per level (10% starting at least, maybe 12%, then advancing by 3 or 4% for up to 18-20%)
- Sun Ray slightly less recovery frames (for more guaranteed setups, maybe 10 shaved off?)
- 114~df1 connects on Ferra/Torr
- parry stops you from completing a string or multihitting move or recovers faster on a successful parry (to allow you to backdash said multiple hit move or string)

i kinda wish blood god had more synergy with itself in more loaded totems (something like armor on blood for bullying, no chip in obsidian for pressure characters, a meterless bounce off air grab while crystal is active) but that'd be asking too much i think, maybe if you had to spend meter on an EX totem it'd make more sense

 

[Crayraven]

i kind of want to open a discussion on what kotal kahn "needs" because that other buff thread is horrible but i don't want to invite a shitstorm either

i guess it's reasonable NRS wants to be careful with him because he has a lot of tools in his kit, but he feels a little too non-cohesive for me to enjoy for long periods of time, so here's what i'd like to see as a start;

- b14 made less - on block (would -6 be too safe?)
- Sun Choke does more damage per level (10% starting at least, maybe 12%, then advancing by 3 or 4% for up to 18-20%)
- Sun Ray slightly less recovery frames (for more guaranteed setups, maybe 10 shaved off?)
- 114~df1 connects on Ferra/Torr
- parry stops you from completing a string or multihitting move or recovers faster on a successful parry (to allow you to backdash said multiple hit move or string)

i kinda wish blood god had more synergy with itself in more loaded totems (something like armor on blood for bullying, no chip in obsidian for pressure characters, a meterless bounce off air grab while crystal is active) but that'd be asking too much i think, maybe if you had to spend meter on an EX totem it'd make more sense

I think the recovery for Sun Ray is -351. Not sure how much would change if recovery was reduced to -341. With that said, I personally don't think Sun Ray is that powerful. Primarily because it requires you or your opponent to sit in it. Sitting in it for the full duration is highly unlikely for you and your opponent. My opinion is the only time the large recovery would be warranted is if sun ray followed you or your opponent around.

For blood god, I think one change that would be positive is the ability to override existing totems with new ones. This would increase blood gods flexibility by a bit. Because right now if you summon a totem, you are stuck with it until it despawns.

 

[RYX]

I think the recovery for Sun Ray is -351. Not sure how much would change if recovery was reduced to -341. With that said, I personally don't think Sun Ray is that powerful. Primarily because it requires you or your opponent to sit in it. Sitting in it for the full duration is highly unlikely for you and your opponent. My opinion is the only time the large recovery would be warranted is if sun ray followed you or your opponent around.

For blood god, I think one change that would be positive is the ability to override existing totems with new ones. This would increase blood gods flexibility by a bit. Because right now if you summon a totem, you are stuck with it until it despawns.

it's not that negative

off of throw, you can almost get past its entire recovery, which means the recovery is closer to somewhere in the 40's or 50's, i think lowering it by 10 frames would make it harder for most teleports to wakeup punish you on reaction though it might need to be reduced further. in the same vein you can't have it be the same as his totems because being able to call down something that heals you and chips your opponent in the corner simultaneously and still having time to stop anything short of an armored wake-up would be way too strong, but being put at neutral or maybe slightly - would be fine

i think they wanted blood god to have to commit to his totems, because being able to adapt on the fly and not have to worry too much about it could potentially be troublesome. I just think there needs to be something other than his damage output that would make you want to pick him. Sun God has tick throws, War God has raw mix-ups, so I think the only possible way for the current iteration of the Kahn to go with Blood is to have momentum based pressure with armor and the threat of damage to further discourage retaliation. that's just me though, after playing Bane I have a giant boner for armor

 

[Hassun]

Kung Lao (more so) and Takeda (to a lesser extent) are some of my better matchups actually. I have much more difficulty with Erron Black (don't think I've ever beaten one) or Kitana (navigating her heavy zoning at multiple heights).

 

[RYX]

Kung Lao (more so) and Takeda (to a lesser extent) are some of my better matchups actually. I have much more difficulty with Erron Black (don't think I've ever beaten one) or Kitana (navigating her heavy zoning at multiple heights).

lao still murders me but I know Takeda's manageable

I don't think Kitana would be that bad, she's not Cyber Kano, but I haven't played a good one to tell

 

[Qwark28]

What I would give to sun god is more damage and less startup on command grab and less - frames on f2

that would be perfect and all he needs. everything else is a luxury. He's already a functional variation that just has problems being so unsafe with normals.

 

[Qwark28]

Kung Lao (more so) and Takeda (to a lesser extent) are some of my better matchups actually. I have much more difficulty with Erron Black (don't think I've ever beaten one) or Kitana (navigating her heavy zoning at multiple heights).

What particularly troubles you about erron?

 

[Hassun]

I don't think Kitana would be that bad, she's not Cyber Kano, but I haven't played a good one to tell

Kano is definitely a problem as well. Ironically the grappler variant makes me the saddest because he has such high damage command grabs while Sun God Kotal's command grab is ass by comparison.

What particularly troubles you about erron?

Just puts me in a blender with his high/low setups and speed. All the Erron's I see play the Sonicfox style and the matches pretty much look like SonicFox matches too. Extreme pressure and mixups into long combos.

 

[RYX]

Kano is definitely a problem as well. Ironically the grappler variant makes me the saddest because he has such high damage command grabs while Sun God Kotal's command grab is ass by comparison.


Just puts me in a blender with his high/low setups and speed. All the Erron's I see play the Sonicfox style and the matches pretty much look like SonicFox matches too. Extreme pressure and mixups.

I personally find his parries more troublesome than his command grabs(although they are annoying as well.) Our lack of high/lows makes it really easy to hit us if we try to come in

Commando Kano is really good at crushing a lot of rushdown characters though, it's not just a Kotal problem

 

[Kittiesily]

Is it just me, or does Kotal gain meter very slow compared to other characters?

 

[RYX]

Is it just me, or does Kotal gain meter very slow compared to other characters?

that's mostly bad design, he has nothing to run cancel off of without spending meter for EX sun disc so his meterbuild is lackluster, also nothing he can cancel into on block for chip unless it's War God

NRS tried to alleviate it with Soul Scorch but you lose too much damage and your command grab returns to insignificance again and Blood Totem, which is bugged and doesn't drain the opponent's meter properly and also disappears if you get hit (though this is very clearly intentional)

 

[WaywardStranger]

114~df1 on block earns you 25% of one bar, and its slightly plus.

 

[RYX]

114~df1 on block earns you 25% of one bar, and its slightly plus.

this much is true

if only kotal had a fast mid outside of d1 to take advantage of it though :[

 

[KeyserSoze]

(though this is very clearly intentional)

I'm glad someone stated this point. I completely agree. A lot of us have complained openly about how buggy Blood totem is, but I am very confident that it disappearing when we are hit is definitely NOT a part of any bugs that do exist. Personally, I don't think it should disappear when we are hit. We already have to land attacks for it to drain our opponents meter and gain health back. To me, we should either have to land attacks in order for it to work OR it should disappear when we are hit, but NOT both.

Currently, the only viable use for it is mid-combo, as in F1B2, Blood Totem, etc, etc.

 

[RYX]

what all gives us a guaranteed safe totem in blood god?

the best i could come up with was 114 on block/hit, 212 on hit (good ender, since its a hard knockdown but you seem to be - overall), 4 on block/hit

what can we do about knockdown into totem as well? i think we ought to make a list of who's slow enough that can we can still poke post-totem setup and who we have to use EX parry or just block/backdash

 

[Nereus]

question regarding Sun God variation.. for some reason whenever i try to go for fdb 1 it never wants to come out. I dunno if this is a bug or just my horrible inputs. Blood Offering is the same input and i have no problem performing that move.

 

[Shufflez]

question regarding Sun God variation.. for some reason whenever i try to go for fdb 1 it never wants to come out. I dunno if this is a bug or just my horrible inputs. Blood Offering is the same input and i have no problem performing that move.

You're probably trying it in training mode with full meter and meter refill, you can't use it with full meter.