General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Hellbringer]

i mean, they have the same shitty wakeups

sungod atleast has his armor sunchoke for wakeup, bloodgod doesnt have anything except a parry lol

 

[RYX]

don't ignore that totems are piss easy to set up, give you better chip, damage reduction, and when NRS fixes it, meter draining and life vamp

you're generally better off going for throw ender anyway, why would you trade +37 (probably over +40) for a few more % that gives up all your pressure unless you're already in the corner

 

[Hellbringer]

Yeah but pressure with bloodgod is not really that great. I think ive played like 40% bloodgod, 40% wargod and 20% sungod, lately more sungod and i have a much more easy time aplying pressure with sungod then with bloodgod. I dont say bloodgod is bad, but when u play against someone who knows the mu and turtles, its so damn frustrating.

 

[Khaoz77]

I personally think Blood God and Sun God are pretty equal, the edge goes to Sun God because of the command grab, and the mind games you can play because of that utility. Also, throw is so helpful in these variations as well, I agree with that immensely. If Blood Totem was fixed, I think it could def trump Sun God Choke.

I noticed when I play these 2 variations with the intent of just playing a fundementally strong game, I do a whole lot better. I reap the benefits naturally, and I'm not worrying about that HUGE damage that I "need" to win. The only problem I feel we need to discuss are matchups at this point. We all know what this character is capable of at a basic level, and we just need to combine heads on how to deal with those pesky matchups that give Kotal problems.

 

[regulas]

Except you don't have tick throws, as high damage without totems and ways to force people to let go of block.

You actually do still have "tic throws" Technically: D3, Throw works very much in the same way especially on hit (it's not a true cancel so it connects a moment after hitstun ends). Compared to needing to build up to get damage and the ease of keeping totem out when your used to it you definitely do better damage. Third is probably true to an extent.

 

[Hassun]

@Khaoz77 I wouldn't mind having a matchup discussion or even an extensive matchup thread with pointers and strategies for every character, starting from basics and evolving into variation-specific stuff.

 

[KeyserSoze]

The Sun God/Blood God debate is quite interesting.

 

[Qwark28]

You actually do still have "tic throws" Technically: D3, Throw works very much in the same way especially on hit (it's not a true cancel so it connects a moment after hitstun ends). Compared to needing to build up to get damage and the ease of keeping totem out when your used to it you definitely do better damage. Third is probably true to an extent.

There's absolutely no doubt that sun god is the better variation at opening people up, you trying to argue about how the basic throw than anyone can use stands up to a true command grab just proves it.

Sun god tick throws are frametraps, you blocked something? You're thrown before you could possibly react and are forced to do something punishable next time if you want to avoid it.

Meanwhile people with 6-7f pokes can just poke you out of anything you do into throw because of throws unable to connect during blockstun.

Base bnb is 39%, with L3 charges 44%, are you telling me you're always setting up a damage totem?

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

Ya after playing with blood god, i can tell that is sucks ass

 

[Sublime]

i once hoped mace parry would accually work as semi AA but ofc every air move stuffs it.. fuck my life trying accually AA in this game

 

[Crayraven]

i once hoped mace parry would accually work as semi AA but ofc every air move stuffs it.. fuck my life trying accually AA in this game

Even Kotal Kahn's anti air move is beat out by any jump attack or air move. Kind of strange how despite its name and its function, it doesn't do well air attacks.

 

[regulas]

There's absolutely no doubt that sun god is the better variation at opening people up, you trying to argue about how the basic throw than anyone can use stands up to a true command grab just proves it.

Sun god tick throws are frametraps, you blocked something? You're thrown before you could possibly react and are forced to do something punishable next time if you want to avoid it.

Meanwhile people with 6-7f pokes can just poke you out of anything you do into throw because of throws unable to connect during blockstun.

Base bnb is 39%, with L3 charges 44%, are you telling me you're always setting up a damage totem?

[D3 then Throw] if the D3 hits (which as a poke low oft does) then your throw will connect 1 frame after the hitstun from the poke ends before they can react despite not being a cancel. Secondly with just under 40 frames of advantage our throw's main asset is the huge frame advantage it gives nearly double the command grabs, and many times in excess of what most other characters get from throws. Honestly if the C grab was like 4 frames faster or did 2% more damage in either case it would be amazing but as is it just doesn't tend to feel that good most of the time.

Typically a non-totem BnB is only 40% plus a Sun Ray or Offering, with the totem set-up and with some duration left. However in general a lot of normals pokes and strings can be cancelled into totems safely on block, which along with ranged casts makes it simple enough to keep totems out. And the regular BnB's with totem out tend for around 48%+ depending on what you end with (usually only 48 because again you're going for Sun Ray or Offering over more immediate damage).

 

[Michael Bolton]

Also, keep in mind that the Sun God tick throw isn't reliable, since, aside from a few exceptions, this game doesn't let you hit confirm. Sure, it looks great when the opponent blocks, and you immediately grab them. But if you hit with your poke, which, again, you can't react to, then your grab whiffs, leaving you open for a full combo punish. As has been discussed multiple times, the damage on the command throw is poor and so generally not worth this risk.

Please don't think I'm saying Sun is worse than Blood because of this. Both are unplayable at tournament level imo.

 

[Qwark28]

[D3 then Throw] if the D3 hits (which as a poke low oft does) then your throw will connect 1 frame after the hitstun from the poke ends before they can react despite not being a cancel. Secondly with just under 40 frames of advantage our throw's main asset is the huge frame advantage it gives nearly double the command grabs, and many times in excess of what most other characters get from throws. Honestly if the C grab was like 4 frames faster or did 2% more damage in either case it would be amazing but as is it just doesn't tend to feel that good most of the time.

Typically a non-totem BnB is only 40% plus a Sun Ray or Offering, with the totem set-up and with some duration left. However in general a lot of normals pokes and strings can be cancelled into totems safely on block, which along with ranged casts makes it simple enough to keep totems out. And the regular BnB's with totem out tend for around 48%+ depending on what you end with (usually only 48 because again you're going for Sun Ray or Offering over more immediate damage).

When you have no overhead threat there is no reason to block low.

I didn't understand what you mean with the end of your first sentence. People hit confirm pokes all the time, my local scene always hitconfirms pokes constantly, that's how the game is played at anything resembling high lvl play.

The point of our argument was opening people up, not frame advantage. I understand the correlation between throw and sun ray but a command grab is a command grab. Unblockable, unduckable, unpokeable, untechable and with range enough to be mistaken for a kara throw.

The command grab is used when people respect you, something that the regular throw is very "meh" at considering it can be teched and people don't care about normal throws in general because of universal defenses, not even mentioning psychologically. If you're going to do a throw or a command grab, you'd be a fool to do it without a read. Sun choke is quite objectively better at opening people up.

Moving on, the damage is fixed after the first command throw, it is now 99% equal to the damage of a normal throw and then does 33% more damage.

BG plays around setting up totem, SG plays around setting up command grab threat. One is a set up for damage or defense, the other is a setup to open people up and buff yourself ( in a future version of the game ).

 

[Shufflez]

A big part of the sun god mindgames for me is the tic throws, if you can hit confirm your b14 you can just do it again if it hits and again if they refuse to block the low, you can just keep doing it until they learn to take the grab instead. that and B1/D1 sun choke is where I'd say I get most of my damage outside of combos.

I don't think Sun God is amazeballs but I seriously think War God is getting away with murder atm, once people learn to punish it or just counter pick it ( there are match ups out there that leave you with very few options in war god ) is when we'll see where kotal really stands as a character.

 

[Qwark28]

Also, keep in mind that the Sun God tick throw isn't reliable, since, aside from a few exceptions, this game doesn't let you hit confirm. Sure, it looks great when the opponent blocks, and you immediately grab them. But if you hit with your poke, which, again, you can't react to, then your grab whiffs, leaving you open for a full combo punish. As has been discussed multiple times, the damage on the command throw is poor and so generally not worth this risk.

Please don't think I'm saying Sun is worse than Blood because of this. Both are unplayable at tournament level imo.

A command grab is not about tick throws. Tick throws are merely a very nice extra but on a read can be punished for full combo, especially with the horrendous recovery sun choke has, worst in the game I believe.

If you do autopilot poke xx SC then you cannot hitconfirm, it's true. That is why the nature of a command grab is threat and reads, you don't do it if you have not established the respect of your normals.

The risk of being punished in not worth it unless you're L3, that is agreed upon. But, realistically, you must do it. It is THE tool to open up people with, otherwise what are you going to do? Rely on 50 throws a round to intimidate someone into unblocking when you're otherwise relatively harmless up close?

You often hit confirm pokes on hit into a regular command grab, doing pokes into it whenever you are sure your opponent respects you. I've had people straight up bait this by intentionally getting hit by my D1 and because of it they were punished with 44% and I've by no means optimised my frametrap options.

Noteworthy addition is the armour on the EX sun choke.

A big part of the sun god mindgames for me is the tic throws, if you can hit confirm your b14 you can just do it again if it hits and again if they refuse to block the low, you can just keep doing it until they learn to take the grab instead. that and B1/D1 sun choke is where I'd say I get most of my damage outside of combos.

I don't think Sun God is amazeballs but I seriously think War God is getting away with murder atm, once people learn to punish it or just counter pick it ( there are match ups out there that leave you with very few options in war god ) is when we'll see where kotal really stands as a character.

B14 is full combo punishable on block though, no matter what you do. -17, makes command grab whiff on block and sunstone interrupted at the same time.

Right now I stand on war god being a bit more solid than any other variation but, with a select few specific buffs, every single variation can end up extremely solid.

 

[Shufflez]

B14 grab wiffs on hit not on block, maybe you missunderstood my post, what I meant was if you can hit confirm the B14 and wait till the low is blocked before dialing in your grab and your b14 isn't blocked you repeat b14 again and keep them in that situation until they actually block the low letting you get the grab.

 

[Shonuff]

B14 grab wiffs on hit not on block, maybe you missunderstood my post, what I meant was if you can hit confirm the B14 and wait till the low is blocked before dialing in your grab and your b14 isn't blocked you repeat b14 again and keep them in that situation until they actually block the low letting you get the grab.

That's not a reliable strategy since that would require you to actually predict the block. Very different form hit confirming. Its difficult to hit confirm a block string because you already have to be canceling the move into the special grab so your already committed (or not).

Its better to do it by first testing their reactions to things in a match. I usually mash footsies to see where he might panic then tick command grab him. You have to play the player because not everyone is smart or dumb enough to block. Only then would that strategy would work. Kotal Kahn is for smart players trust me.

 

[Qwark28]

B14 grab wiffs on hit not on block, maybe you missunderstood my post, what I meant was if you can hit confirm the B14 and wait till the low is blocked before dialing in your grab and your b14 isn't blocked you repeat b14 again and keep them in that situation until they actually block the low letting you get the grab.

An instant NJP will punish both cases. This is a gimmick at its finest.

 

[RYX]

normal throw's still better than sun choke and it's the only reason blood god can open people up

which is why he can open you up with just mids and throws

 

[Hassun]

It really seems to me that Sun Choke just does not do enough damage. You need to create a sort of Zangief/T.Hawk scenario where that command throw is SERIOUS BUSINESS. The damage it currently does it just pathetic.
I would be willing to sacrifice quite a bit of heavy combo damage in exchange for a command throw which is actually a big threat.

I don't think Sun God is amazeballs but I seriously think War God is getting away with murder atm, once people learn to punish it or just counter pick it ( there are match ups out there that leave you with very few options in war god ) is when we'll see where kotal really stands as a character.

I also think War God is going to drop down as time goes on (unless patches change everything of course). I still think he's the best Kotal variation of the three but once people get more matchup experience the holes in his game are going to become more apparent. He's been getting away with quite a bit in the tournaments I've seen so far.

 

[GGA Fill Pops]

Could someone PLEASE point me to some channels with good Sun and Blood god variations kicking ass?

I can win all day with Wargod but once I stay out that variation I dunno what to do XD.

Yes I accidentally picked blood and went full retard a match and got bodied.

This is from Week one when i mained blood so it may look bad since it was the first week but i got wins. i really want to play sun in certain match ups cuz i love it so much
me vs Tyler(ermac)

me vs Monoxide(war god)

me vs Medina(reptile)

 

[Shonuff]

normal throw's still better than sun choke and it's the only reason blood god can open people up

which is why he can open you up with just mids and throws

But normal throws can be ducked, d2 for that matter if they read you. You can't duck the choke or break it. Its not hard to connect Sun God Choke. Even against a super ultra good Kung Lao that wupped me good, I still managed to land all three sun god chokes in all kinds of manner and hold my own, even though fighting him was like pulling teeth.

Thats just how I feel though, to each his own.

 

[RYX]

But normal throws can be ducked, d2 for that matter if they read you. You can't duck the choke or break it. Its not hard to connect Sun God Choke. Even against a super ultra good Kung Lao that wupped me good, I still managed to land all three sun god chokes in all kinds of manner and hold my own, even though fighting him was like pulling teeth.

Thats just how I feel though, to each his own.

that's the entire point of most of his moves being mids, to make you guess between mids and throws and if he throws you again then it's a 50/50 whether he's going to meaty you or throw you again into the corner where he can set up a totem and check you with d1 (guaranteed if you can time totem to come out fast enough, kind of hard online though). he can throw you a third time but it's a waste of the totem buff since it'll only do 16%, but it's a good ender with totems up since it runs out the timer so hard

give him a safe string and a parry buff and he'll be superb at doing his job

 

[Michael Bolton]

War God has been getting away with some, but so have most characters. Even once people figure out how to punish his enhanced moves and his gaps, his tools are still solid. Having an armored, overhead move that leads to 30%+ combos will always be useful. Having a safe, special ender, which leads to oki, will always be useful. Having a special move that is cancelable, and armor on wakeup if you spend a bar, will always be useful. War God has layers he can fall back on when he begins to get figured out, while Sun and Blood don't even have the initial set of necessary tools to fight. Hopefully, as many have said, they will be given some in future patches.

Just bringing this all up to say that I think War God will stay playable at a high level as time goes on. He's not the very top, for sure, but he is competitive and will likely remain so.