How to Read, Understand and Calculate Frame Data in MKX

[Myokymia]

I got couple new examples.

Ferra/torr throw has a 32 to cancel which really supports my lower number better cancel theory.

Their standing 4 frame data

Startup:10 Active:5 Recover:30
BAdv:-7 HAdv:-9 cancel: 20

Old method says they has 11 frames for a special, but my version:

TotalFrame-Cancel+Advantage=AdvantageOnCancel

says there is: (10+5+30)-(20)+(-9)=16

Since they are able to combo with the the 15 frame start up bow girl, Mine seems correct

 

[Bildslash]

I got couple new examples.

Ferra/torr throw has a 32 to cancel which really supports my lower number better cancel theory.

Their standing 4 frame data

Startup:10 Active:5 Recover:30
BAdv:-7 HAdv:-9 cancel: 20

Old method says they has 11 frames for a special, but my version:

TotalFrame-Cancel+Advantage=AdvantageOnCancel

says there is: (10+5+30)-(20)+(-9)=16

Since they are able to combo with the the 15 frame start up bow girl, Mine seems correct

@Evil Eddy Wang check this out.

I was about to post something similar. Because from testing, strings that appear to have gaps with the old formula in reality don't have any; this was done using the AI to do an armored reversal.

 

[K00L4ID]

Like Myokymia's theory, that's how I thought the cancel frames were used as well.
Example:
Jacqui in Full Auto has 2,3,BionicDash. 2,3 is 11 start, 2 active, 30 recover, 0 advantage, and 19 cancel. Bionic Dash has 24 frame startup. 11+2+30+0-19=24, which is greater than or equal to the next move's startup of 24. This combo works.
However, Jacqui in Full Auto using 2,3,LowRocket does not combo. LowRocket has a 30 frame startup. Since 2,3's 24 frame cancel-ability is not greater than or equal to LowRocket's startup, it doesn't work.

BUT then there's weird stuff like..
Takeda in Shirai Ryu using F1,2,SpearRyu doesn't work. F1,2 has 10+4+27+4-27=18 and Spear Ryu only has 14 startup. 14 is 4 frames less than the combined 18 potential, and therefore should work, but doesn't.
When 2,1,FistFlurry does. 2,1 has 19+4+54-27-30=20, and Fist Flurry has 22 startup, so it shouldn't work.

I think there's something we're missing. Or I'm doing something wrong, which is entirely possible XD

 

[Bildslash]

Like Myokymia's theory, that's how I thought the cancel frames were used as well.
Example:
Jacqui in Full Auto has 2,3,BionicDash. 2,3 is 11 start, 2 active, 30 recover, 0 advantage, and 19 cancel. Bionic Dash has 24 frame startup. 11+2+30+0-19=24, which is greater than or equal to the next move's startup of 24. This combo works.
However, Jacqui in Full Auto using 2,3,LowRocket does not combo. LowRocket has a 30 frame startup. Since 2,3's 24 frame cancel-ability is not greater than or equal to LowRocket's startup, it doesn't work.

BUT then there's weird stuff like..
Takeda in Shirai Ryu using F1,2,SpearRyu doesn't work. F1,2 has 10+4+27+4-27=18 and Spear Ryu only has 14 startup. 14 is 4 frames less than the combined 18 potential, and therefore should work, but doesn't.
When 2,1,FistFlurry does. 2,1 has 19+4+54-27-30=20, and Fist Flurry has 22 startup, so it shouldn't work.

I think there's something we're missing. Or I'm doing something wrong, which is entirely possible XD

The missing component could be that the frame data is not 100% correct. There are mistakes here or there.

 

[K00L4ID]

Thought about that too, so it's entirely possible. Perhaps Takeda's data is completely wrong lol.
He's the only one that it hasn't worked for so far that I've tried, so I'm hoping that's the case.
There's no list of incorrect data right, it's just a general statement?

EDIT: Also, is there any point to frame advantage beyond mixup setups and cancels?
I'm used to links in SF4, but am completely new to MK, and seeing normals have frame advantage on hit but not being able to combo into other normals without chaining them seems weird. Are people able to block at the end of your recovery, but not able to do anything else until the frame advantage is up?

 

[Myokymia]

Like Myokymia's theory, that's how I thought the cancel frames were used as well.
Example:
Jacqui in Full Auto has 2,3,BionicDash. 2,3 is 11 start, 2 active, 30 recover, 0 advantage, and 19 cancel. Bionic Dash has 24 frame startup. 11+2+30+0-19=24, which is greater than or equal to the next move's startup of 24. This combo works.
However, Jacqui in Full Auto using 2,3,LowRocket does not combo. LowRocket has a 30 frame startup. Since 2,3's 24 frame cancel-ability is not greater than or equal to LowRocket's startup, it doesn't work.

BUT then there's weird stuff like..
Takeda in Shirai Ryu using F1,2,SpearRyu doesn't work. F1,2 has 10+4+27+4-27=18 and Spear Ryu only has 14 startup. 14 is 4 frames less than the combined 18 potential, and therefore should work, but doesn't.
When 2,1,FistFlurry does. 2,1 has 19+4+54-27-30=20, and Fist Flurry has 22 startup, so it shouldn't work.

I think there's something we're missing. Or I'm doing something wrong, which is entirely possible XD

Yeah it tested this and it does not work when the data says it should. However excluding the possiblity of the data being wrong, it could just be because of the distance you go through several active frames as well as the start-up.

 

[K00L4ID]

True. I had disregarded that as a possibility for some reason, but if I do 2,1,SpearRyu from the farthest back point so that only the 1 hits at a far range, it doesn't combo properly either.
That still doesn't explain why the data says the 2,1,FistFlurry shouldn't work when it does, so it's safe to assume at least that move's data is wrong, or something, yes?

 

[Myokymia]

True. I had disregarded that as a possibility for some reason, but if I do 2,1,SpearRyu from the farthest back point so that only the 1 hits at a far range, it doesn't combo properly either.
That still doesn't explain why the data says the 2,1 shouldn't work when it does, so it's safe to assume at least that move's data is wrong, or something, yes?

Okay I tested 2,1 and it won't combo if only the 1 hits at max range

19+4+54=77
77-29=48
-27+48=21

So it needs to be under 21 frames. Spear ryu startup is 14, so you have a 7 frame buffer. The issue is likely at the absolute max range of the 1 in the 2,1 string the spear ryu goes through 8 active frames, so it doesn't connect, but closer it will.

Edit*: yeah fist flurry shouldn't work that's odd. Honestly looking at it it appears it might shave off a couple of frames on it's start up when it is canceled into. No way of proving that, but to me it looks like it might start a couple frames later in the animation from just doing it raw. though it's proabably just the wrong number

 

[Ex1l3d]

Hi, so I've read this and this. My knowledge is based on these, so I've misunderstood them or they are incorrect in places.

Despite reading them both, several times over, I've still got a few questions - its a little difficult.

One quick question first: I've found some moves which have incorrect frame data, is there somewhere I should post this? (Reptile's slippery slide is -4 start up, not -5. Cassie's Hard sell kombo does not have 0 neutral advantage).

Learning how to combo
I'd just like to be clear on how the frame data works.

Start up - how long it takes to initiate the move
Active - duration of move, during which time you are unable to do anything else
Recover - duration of time it takes for you to recover if you MISS

Block Adv - duration of time you are vulnerable if you HIT but are BLOCKED
Hit Adv - duration of time opponent is vulnerable if you HIT
Cancel - ????


I don't really understand what cancel is. Could someone explain it, with an example perhaps?

Also, I'm having trouble creating combos. As an example, Cassie's "1,2" should be comboing with "2,1,2", because the hit advantage for "1,2" is 21, and the startup for "2,1,2" is 8. The bot is able to block though, why is this?

 

[K00L4ID]

After recording the different Fist Flurry combos, they look the same. I guess it just felt shorter idk.
Also, apparently some stuff is weird with Kenshi in Possessed form too.
1,DemonAssault actually works.
Regular 1 should be 10 startup, 2 active, 5 recover, 15 advantage, 17 cancel, so 10+2+5+15-17=15.
But, he can cancel into Demon Assault which is 18 frame startup.
More weird stuff.

Hi, so I've read this and this. My knowledge is based on these, so I've misunderstood them or they are incorrect in places.

Despite reading them both, several times over, I've still got a few questions - its a little difficult.

One quick question first: I've found some moves which have incorrect frame data, is there somewhere I should post this? (Reptile's slippery slide is -4 start up, not -5. Cassie's Hard sell kombo does not have 0 neutral advantage).

Learning how to combo
I'd just like to be clear on how the frame data works.

Start up - how long it takes to initiate the move
Active - duration of move, during which time you are unable to do anything else
Recover - duration of time it takes for you to recover if you MISS

Block Adv - duration of time you are vulnerable if you HIT but are BLOCKED
Hit Adv - duration of time opponent is vulnerable if you HIT
Cancel - ????


I don't really understand what cancel is. Could someone explain it, with an example perhaps?

Also, I'm having trouble creating combos. As an example, Cassie's "1,2" should be comboing with "2,1,2", because the hit advantage for "1,2" is 21, and the startup for "2,1,2" is 8. The bot is able to block though, why is this?

1: No clue on where to post incorrect frame data. I'm new here too.
2: Active (by my understanding) is not the duration of the move, but rather the amount of time an enemy can be hit by your move. Most of the time these are small, like 1-5 frames. This allows you a little bit of leeway, like enemies could walk into your attack or your attack could hit at the end of some animation or something, without actually being ridiculous. If your move had 1000 active frames, the enemy could sit still for 10 full seconds and walk forward then get hit by your attack. I dunno if that makes proper sense, but its like sticking your fist out. Until your fist is out, it wont hit anything, while your fist is out (or active) it can hit someone, while your fist is coming back, it wont hit anyone.
3: Recovery is not if you miss, but rather the time it takes to go from the end of your active frames to your neutral stance in which you can then do something else. Pretty much startup is like pushing your fist out to hit someone, active is when your punch actually hits, and recovery is when you're pulling your fist back to get back into fighting stance.
4: Both block adv and hit adv aren't necessarily either your or your enemy's vulnerability time. It's pretty much the amount of frames you got into your neutral stance before your enemy. If it's a negative, then your enemy got into neutral stance first and can therefore do something before you can; positive means you got into neutral stance first and can do something before him/her.
5: Your last point I don't really understand either. It seems there might be some mechanic that allows a person to block when your attack's recovery frames are over, but they still can't do anything else until your frame advantage is up. Besides negative frame advantage on hit, of course.
****EDIT****: From my understanding, most of the combos in this game will come from juggles or cancels. Making up stuff is fun, but dont forget that a lot of people here and elsewhere have plenty of combos you can look up. They're great for at least going "Oh, I didn't think about that! Maybe I can do something similar with this move/character"
6: Cancel frames are mostly what we've been debating. The original poster's view on these could be correct, or the newer view could be correct, we're not 100% sure, but what I think it is, is the amount of frames before your move will be cancelled, or potentially also the amount of frames you have to cancel your move.
So say a move has 10 startup, 2 active, 14 recovery, 8 frame advantage on hit, 20 cancel frames.
Your entire move takes up 10+2+14 frames from start to finish, so a total of 26.
Of those 26 frames, you can press the next input within the first 20 of them (I think), and at the end of those 20, the next move will come out.
That means that of those 26 original frames, because your first move got cancelled at 20, you basically skipped 6 frames. 26 (total duration) - 20 (cancel frames).
To calculate if your move will cancel into another properly, we believe it is
Startup + Active + Recovery + Frame Advantage On Hit - Cancel
Or in this example, 10+2+14+8-20, for a total of 14.
This number needs to be greater than or equal to the next move's startup.
If the next move had 10 frame startup, you could cancel into it because 14 > 10.
If the next move had 14 frame startup, you could cancel into it because 14 = 14.
If the next move had 16 frame startup, you could NOT cancel into it because 14 < 16.

In game examples of what we've been discussing are above, like

Jacqui in Full Auto has 2,3,BionicDash. 2,3 is 11 start, 2 active, 30 recover, 0 advantage, and 19 cancel. Bionic Dash has 24 frame startup. 11+2+30+0-19=24, which is greater than or equal to the next move's startup of 24. This combo works.
However, Jacqui in Full Auto using 2,3,LowRocket does not combo. LowRocket has a 30 frame startup. Since 2,3's 24 frame cancel-ability is not greater than or equal to LowRocket's startup, it doesn't work.

Sub-zero's 1,1 can link into his ice ball (30f frame start-up)
Sub-zero's second hit of his 1,1 has (info necessary for equation)
startup:9 Active:2 Recover:31
BAdv:-4 HAdv:7 Cancel:16

According to what I believe is the equation here the special would need to be < 23 frames to use, but It does work. The equation I came up with isn't as simple (still just arithmetic) but here it is

9+2+31=42=total frames
cancel at frame 16, so find the difference
42-16=26=gained advantage
7+26=33=new hit advantage
33>30 so the ice ball hits, but the overhead hammer(35f) won't.

Some of this could be wrong, but it's served me well in SF4 so far and besides things new to me like cancel frames, MKX frame data seems to be pretty similar. If it is wrong though, feel free to correct me.

 

[FluffyKittenPops]

@Ex1l3d I believe cancel is the time it takes to cancel into a special.

I'm not sure what the frames would be for this but here's an example with Kung jin: b214xxdb3
the xx is the cancel part. In between those inputs from 4 to db3 is the time of cancel. Which is the "cancel frame".

Another example is
(Kung Laos low hat pressure)
D4xxdb3

xx - cancel.

I hope this helps.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

@Ex1l3d Say your lao and you do d1 low hat. Let's say the cancel advantage on d1 is 8 frames but low hat takes 16 frames to hit. That means there are 8 frames between the d1 and the low hat in which they can poke or armor

 

[Ex1l3d]

@ k00laid, Fluffykittenpops and STB Shhujinkydink. Thank you. I will read over what you've read in more depth and test some stuff out, then reply here again.

But one thing in regard to active... if it is the amount of time that your opponent can be hit by your attack, why is kung lao's hat throw and his EX hat throw so different? The normal one has 301 active, and then EX version has 27?

P.S. I appreciate that there are people inventing combos here for me, but I just like to understand how things work first.

 

[K00L4ID]

But one thing in regard to active... if it is the amount of time that your opponent can be hit by your attack, why is kung lao's hat throw and his EX hat throw so different? The normal one has 301 active, and then EX version has 27?

It's possible that the 27 refers more to when it comes back or something. I'm not sure though, that's definitely something that needs more investigation/explanation.

P.S. I appreciate that there are people inventing combos here for me, but I just like to understand how things work first.

That's perfectly fine. I just mentioned that before because I did the same thing. I tried to figure out combos on my own, then saw some stuff on here and was surprised by how much was possible that I didn't think of. Either way you're learning stuff, so it's all good!

 

[Ex1l3d]

Hi again guys, I'd like to know how one can figure out whether an ability can be 'armoured' or not. Is there a rule or data? Or is it simply a matter of testing in practice?

 

[MadeOfMetal]

After recording the different Fist Flurry combos, they look the same. I guess it just felt shorter idk.
Also, apparently some stuff is weird with Kenshi in Possessed form too.
1,DemonAssault actually works.
Regular 1 should be 10 startup, 2 active, 5 recover, 15 advantage, 17 cancel, so 10+2+5+15-17=15.
But, he can cancel into Demon Assault which is 18 frame startup.
More weird stuff.


1: No clue on where to post incorrect frame data. I'm new here too.
2: Active (by my understanding) is not the duration of the move, but rather the amount of time an enemy can be hit by your move. Most of the time these are small, like 1-5 frames. This allows you a little bit of leeway, like enemies could walk into your attack or your attack could hit at the end of some animation or something, without actually being ridiculous. If your move had 1000 active frames, the enemy could sit still for 10 full seconds and walk forward then get hit by your attack. I dunno if that makes proper sense, but its like sticking your fist out. Until your fist is out, it wont hit anything, while your fist is out (or active) it can hit someone, while your fist is coming back, it wont hit anyone.
3: Recovery is not if you miss, but rather the time it takes to go from the end of your active frames to your neutral stance in which you can then do something else. Pretty much startup is like pushing your fist out to hit someone, active is when your punch actually hits, and recovery is when you're pulling your fist back to get back into fighting stance.
4: Both block adv and hit adv aren't necessarily either your or your enemy's vulnerability time. It's pretty much the amount of frames you got into your neutral stance before your enemy. If it's a negative, then your enemy got into neutral stance first and can therefore do something before you can; positive means you got into neutral stance first and can do something before him/her.
5: Your last point I don't really understand either. It seems there might be some mechanic that allows a person to block when your attack's recovery frames are over, but they still can't do anything else until your frame advantage is up. Besides negative frame advantage on hit, of course.
****EDIT****: From my understanding, most of the combos in this game will come from juggles or cancels. Making up stuff is fun, but dont forget that a lot of people here and elsewhere have plenty of combos you can look up. They're great for at least going "Oh, I didn't think about that! Maybe I can do something similar with this move/character"
6: Cancel frames are mostly what we've been debating. The original poster's view on these could be correct, or the newer view could be correct, we're not 100% sure, but what I think it is, is the amount of frames before your move will be cancelled, or potentially also the amount of frames you have to cancel your move.
So say a move has 10 startup, 2 active, 14 recovery, 8 frame advantage on hit, 20 cancel frames.
Your entire move takes up 10+2+14 frames from start to finish, so a total of 26.
Of those 26 frames, you can press the next input within the first 20 of them (I think), and at the end of those 20, the next move will come out.
That means that of those 26 original frames, because your first move got cancelled at 20, you basically skipped 6 frames. 26 (total duration) - 20 (cancel frames).
To calculate if your move will cancel into another properly, we believe it is
Startup + Active + Recovery + Frame Advantage On Hit - Cancel
Or in this example, 10+2+14+8-20, for a total of 14.
This number needs to be greater than or equal to the next move's startup.
If the next move had 10 frame startup, you could cancel into it because 14 > 10.
If the next move had 14 frame startup, you could cancel into it because 14 = 14.
If the next move had 16 frame startup, you could NOT cancel into it because 14 < 16.

In game examples of what we've been discussing are above, like


Some of this could be wrong, but it's served me well in SF4 so far and besides things new to me like cancel frames, MKX frame data seems to be pretty similar. If it is wrong though, feel free to correct me.

Thank you guys so much i basically knew it but... wanted to be sure.. i remember reading sombereses post a while back for MK9... talk about complicated... your guys explination is simple.. thank you all for your help.

 

[Absinthesize]

so do we know if the frame data is accurate right now?

because a lot of the startup's on sub zero that i saw posted last week are not correct now when i look ingame...

 

[Lokheit]

Great thread!

I have some doubts with stuff I'm experimenting with though.

I'm trying some of Sub-Zero's long reaching combos whiffing the first hit, most of his strings have a lot of range on the second hit and the particular case I'm specially interested is his Cryomancer F1,2,2 string.

The second hit for that string is 0 on block and has quite some range (with the added plus that unlike other Sub-Zero's strings, you don't move your vulnerable body forward but hit with the damage inmune sword instead), so I'm trying to juice that move by attacking from long distance, stop it on block and launch after hit (the move seems to have a big window to decide if you want to hit the last 2).

But the doubt I have is how many frames does it take to whiff the first hit and use the second one. Is the start up time of both added? Is the second hit starting faster because it is a cancel? It is actually slower because I'm whiffing the first hit?

This is the data for the F1:

START UP 14, ACTIVE 2, RECOVER 25, BLOCK ADV -6, HIT ADV 15, CANCEL 19

And here the second hit in the string:

START UP 15, ACTIVE 3, RECOVER 21, BLOCK ADV 0, HIT ADV 16, CANCEL 28

(the last hit is 12, 5, 22, -8, 34, 20 but that's irrelevant here)

I was assuming the total start up for the second hit after whiff was like a single 29 frames start but I though it was faster and now I'm not sure if recover and cancel on the first hit have a say in the final number. It always felt faster than 29 frames to my eyes, at least when I was comparing it with the hammer to test how good it was for long reach in comparison.

 

[Lokheit]

Something to note about mixed data results and calculations:

Some moves only combo on female models and in many cases a move that won't combo on open field, will against the ball, so hitbox size and the distance that a move pushes (which is prevented by the wall) have a say in the process.

 

[Derby]

Are there any examples of the formula:
Startup + Active + Recovery + Frame Advantage On Hit - Cancel
being wrong?

 

[K00L4ID]

I always doubt myself when I type posts like this.. so I apologize if I messed up in here, or have a misinformed idea of your knowledge.

But the doubt I have is how many frames does
it take to whiff the first hit and use the second one. Is the start up time of both added? Is the second hit starting faster because it is a cancel? It is actually slower because I'm whiffing the first hit?

This is the data for the F1:

START UP 14, ACTIVE 2, RECOVER 25, BLOCK ADV -6, HIT ADV 15, CANCEL 19

And here the second hit in the string:

START UP 15, ACTIVE 3, RECOVER 21, BLOCK ADV 0, HIT ADV 16, CANCEL 28

(the last hit is 12, 5, 22, -8, 34, 20 but that's irrelevant here)

I was assuming the total start up for the second hit after whiff was like a single 29 frames start but I though it was faster and now I'm not sure if recover and cancel on the first hit have a say in the final number. It always felt faster than 29 frames to my eyes, at least when I was comparing it with the hammer to test how good it was for long reach in comparison.

If our formula works properly, I'd assume it's Move 1's [ Startup + Active + Recovery - Cancel ] + Move 2's Startup.
The first move still gets cancelled, but because there's no hit, you don't need to involve the Adv.On.Hit.
You'd still include the active and recovery because it's all a part of the move.
So for this it's likely 14+2+25-19+15 = 37. Again, that's just if our previous stuff and I are correct.

Something to note about mixed data results and calculations:

Some moves only combo on female models and in many cases a move that won't combo on open field, will against the ball, so hitbox size and the distance that a move pushes (which is prevented by the wall) have a say in the process.

Yeah, hitboxes and distancing are always an issue in combos with fighting games that I'm familiar with. Hence why some combos are considered "character specific" or "corner combos."

Are there any examples of the formula:
Startup + Active + Recovery + Frame Advantage On Hit - Cancel
being wrong?

There have been several. They may be due to something we don't know or incorrect ingame frame data, but a few posts above include examples of it not working properly. Many characters seem to work properly for it, but apparently there are some that dont quite do so well.

 

[Lokheit]

Is it possible that the "Active" time starts at the same time than the "Recover" time? meaning that the move starts up for X frames and then recover for Y frames but the hitbox is active during the first few frames of Y?

37 could be right as I haven't recorder F1(whiff), 2 against hammer, but the eye test looks like the first one should be faster. I could be wrong though.

 

[K00L4ID]

I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it considering this terminology works with other fighting games. They'd have to be jerks to mess with people's understanding of frame data by changing something like that.

 

[Belial]

Can anyone give a proper explanation how advantage work in this game?

Everyone seems OK with the fact you can punish -8 with 8 frame special but cannot with normal. However everyone is missing out that it is but a tip of the iceberg that is MKX buffering system. I can remember that stuff as a rule of thumb when it comes to punishing, but what about actual advantage of safe atacks. or advantage on hit?

Player 1 hits player 2, which is now at -5, player 1 then atacks with 10 frame move, player 2 tries to poke with i5 move. What happens? What if he uses i5 special? what if player 1 uses i10 special?
Player 1 blocks something thats -2 and both players atack?

Does "slow normals" apply on block only? or on hit as well? does only one player get this disadvantage? if so, which player and why? how does it cope in with "instant" specials property?

 

[Lokheit]

Player 1 hits player 2, which is now at -5, player 1 then atacks with 10 frame move, player 2 tries to poke with i5 move. What happens? What if he uses i5 special? what if player 1 uses i10 special?

I've had plenty of "double strike" situations with both opponents going to the ground so you can "tie" in frame advantage. Of course there are moves that reach longer thanks to props that will get the upper hand on tie situations because only one actually touches a hitbox.