9.95
Champion
Originally posted by over on SRK and brought to my attention by Tim in the shoutbox, the thread can be viewed here:
http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=225838
I'm going to give a synopsis of the thread in this post... I will be cutting out the crap posts and get to the meat of the posting.
I think it's a necessary thing for us, as a MK community, to discuss this as well. Some of us have already chimed in on SRK(Tim, myself and Bryant), but we definitely need this thread here.
I've highlighted responses from our members in RED.
Ok, I think I covered all of the important posts in the thread. Tim, if I missed anything, please edit.
http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=225838
I'm going to give a synopsis of the thread in this post... I will be cutting out the crap posts and get to the meat of the posting.
I think it's a necessary thing for us, as a MK community, to discuss this as well. Some of us have already chimed in on SRK(Tim, myself and Bryant), but we definitely need this thread here.
I've highlighted responses from our members in RED.
ShotgunSteve said:This kind of thread was hated on the old SRK, but now it's kinda accepted...so...
I've done a lot of thinking, I like the style of Mortal Kombat. And the games are fun to dick around with. I wish they would be competitive, but unfortunately they just aren't designed that way. Mortal Kombat 2 had a combo system that through flaws in programming allowed air juggles and combos, MK3 tried to make it competitive by forcing a dial-a-combo system that made it more approachable but hindered real game play.
1) 2D
3) Mortal Kombat 2 gameplay style
3) add Hit Stun
4) More variation with "normal" moves
5) 3 games and all had a very abusable Back+LK sweep...let's change that
6) back to block
7) add super meter
8) change run to FF instead of a button
9) maybe a parry or just defend defense move
10) less abusive LP spam.
Hatred Edge said:No, it's not.
And add Super Meter? Add parry or a JD move?
ShotgunSteve said:I'm just trying to think about how MK could have moved forward and not ended up being a joke.
clue2025 said:If they made it just like UMK3 or MK2
/thread
d3v said:Problem is I believe that Boon has never really seen his game as a serious, competitive fighting game.
ShotgunSteve said:I thought MK3 was an attempt to make it serious?
Echo Black said:So your "fix" for Mortal Kombat is turning it into Street Fighter? While you're at it, why don't you simply go play SF?
FYI there's a "parry" in the 3D MKs for PS2, it's not like the SF3 one and more akin to SFA's Alpha Counter than anything else, though. Also I think it's cute how you equate "parry and just defend" mechanics with the immediate betterment of another series.
ShotgunSteve said:It's not SF, I said "MK2 style gameplay" just...with extra shit. The breaker in the 3D MKs was...yeah...
I was just thinking about what i'd have liked to see it evolve into.
NAP said:Whoever owns the rights to MK now should realize what a gold mine they are sitting on right now. With the success of games like Megaman 9, Street Fighter 2 HD Remix and Bionic Commando Rearmed, do they not realize how many people would love to see a new MK game with digitized graphics? Of course I don't know how expensive this would be for them to make but I know nostalgia alone would be enough to get people to buy a game like that. Make it violent as hell with a sense of humor like the first three games and I think they'd have a hit on their hands.
Eshmasesh said:Nope. It's a lot like MvC2 in that it accidentally turned out to be a great game.
IMO I'd like to see them do another 3D game, I know they keep screwing it up over and over but they got REALLY close to a good game with MK vs. DC. So close, it hurts. If they had fixed these problems it would have been excellent:
1) Reduce tech time on grabs and remove the ability to reduce grab damage. A good minor change would be to make grabs unbreakerable to help counter turtling.
2) Remove freefall kombat and test your might mashing garbage from gameplay. Keep klose kombat though, this was implemented well.
3) Reduce rage gain, remove unblockable shenanigans from breakers and rage mode.
4) PLAY TEST THE GAME and remove the obvious dumb infinites. Jesus christ.
5) Decrease the recovery time on most projectiles to make them more useful.
6) More moves! The basics of the game were solid, but having a small move list limited the depth of gameplay and screwed over certain characters.
7) If you're going to waste time creating fatalities, the least you can do is make them gruesome as fuck. Most of the Heroic Brutalities were WEAK, not even in a funny way.
Kalyx triaD said:3D vs 2D:
One of the biggest issues with Midway is their 'straddling the fence' when it comes to what they want MK to be. I think they have problems upgrading the engine while not wanting to let go of classic MK konventions. For instance, right now you could duck a fireball (classic MK), sidestep it (recent MK), or block it. In 2D, blocking or ducking was your options (and jumping!). But with 3D in the mix, you were able to sidestep. This ruined one of MK's stables: the projectile. What's MK if you can't toss something, right? In this manner you can see how Midway threatens their own engine when they try adding elements without subtracting elements that don't make sense together.
My answer to this is to add a uniform multi-directional option for all projectiles for all characters. Now Scorpion's start-up animation for his spear will insight a response from his opponent, but will they know if the spears going upper-right or lower-left! What we have now is an interesting event where both players have viable options that also makes use of 3D movement. And how about this; ducking a projectile is etched in MK gameplay, and you may want move upward while still wanting to defend against Scorpion's spear... To this I give the Kombat Roll, a way of moving in 8 directions while, essentially, ducking! The actual 'ducking frames' would last an instant so timing would be stressed, and the recovery animation would leave you in base ducking position before you can rise. This adds a risk-reward factor that I personally believe makes a good game.
And just like that I made MK's older konventions relevant to MK and 3D.
Updated Attacks:
Scorpion and some other character having the same kick or punch is fucking illegal. Stop it Midway, I'm serious. Every character needs their own standards, with new properties to go with them. This includes Counter Hit properties. Every fighting game and their mothers have CH properties. A CH status usually changes move properties, commonly increased damage. So how about Sub-Zero's freeze-ball catches you while you're just standing there and you could break out after an instant. All Subby did was buy him some tactical movement time at best, right. But when his freeze-ball catches you on CH, you stay frozen longer and he has some deadly options for ya.
And do you really wanna just pull people with Scorp's spear? MK vs DC introduced the welcome element of Pro-Moves, where savy players can unleash EX-like versions of special moves. Maybe I should have the option of just throwing the spear at you and being done with it, or maybe yank you halfway? This could be used to set up spacing and tactical movement, especially is Midway wants to keep the (admittingly fun) element of interactive stages.
Jump, Jump, Criss Cross Will Make You...:
Aw yes, jumping. Jumping in fighting games are approached two ways; the 2D leap kinda jump that clears 16ft easily, and the more conservative 3D hop. MK is caught in a cross roads about what to do with jumping. MKDA and Deception had the hop, while MKA and vsDC returned with the leap. Personally, since I want MK to embrace 3D movement, I think the 8ft hop should return... with some updated properties ofcourse.
Now this idea may incite some rage, but I think jumping should be assigned to a button, preferably the R-Trigger (while the Ducking and Kombat Rolling should be on the L-Trigger). Why? Well it goes back to the importance of 3D movement and gets into intuitive control design. You see... I fucking... hate... having to use a button to sidestep. That shit is archaic, lame, and overall counter-intuitive. If I wanna move up or down, dammit I should simply move the stick in said directions. So moving down on the stick would have your character walk into the foreground. But I have ducking on the L-Trigger, so am I a hypocrite?! Here me out before you answer.
The new properties I want for jumping is for it to be an inverse of ducking; you can jump clear over [some] projectiles and low attacks while you can duck [most] projectiles and high attacks. To further make the point of the actions being conceptual opposites of each other, I placed them on either triggers. Also you can jump in place or in 8 directions just as you can duck in place or Kombat Roll in 8 directions. This adds options, and the fight will just plain look cooler with all the vying for position taking place on screen.
Aquashark said:i can't stand 3D MK games solely because the movement/physics feels awkward especially with jumping/falling (seems jerky or too sudden, i can't quite explain it).. this is also present to a certain degree in games like VF, Tekken and Soul Calibur
i'm glad SF4 didn't have the same defect.. it got me worried when i found out it will be in 3D
so yeah.. fix that, add hitstun and remove chip damage from normals.. that would be a good start
Missing Person said:Even 2.5D would work in MK's favor. Not saying that "If it worked for Street Fighter..." but considering that the strongest MK titles were 2D, and nothing past that has even come remotely close, I would say that a step to bridge the two would really help matters.
Aside from the massive steps that would need to be taken to actually create a game that doesn't have insane imbalances and infinites and stupidity abound.
Necrotrophic said:its much easier to program a block button than it is to make back = block. mortal kombat has always been a lazy attempt from a development standpoint.
Kalyx triaD said:MK games are often an unbalanced mess of a fighting game hidden under silly annual gimmicks. It's lack of depth is a major point of issue. Also factor in the developer's disinterest in making MK a truly competitive, tourny viable game. Me and my friends brainstormed better Mortal Kombat games than the ones that were released, just as many others have done I'm sure. I believe a lot of the frustration comes from the fact that Mortal Kombat indeed has one of the strongest mythologies in fighting games. A decent back story packed with a subpar fighting engine.
Azuro said:MKDC was a pretty good start if you exclude the infinites and FFK/TYM. They need to keep that engine, and change the following:
-Change block to back/down-back
-Change backdash to double-tap back
-Remove Free Fall & Test Your Might
-Remove the infinites
-Speed up movement
-ADD REPTILE!
They do that...I will be fine with the game. I never hated MKDC...just no one would play and the online was one of the worst in gaming history.
ShotgunSteve said:I think a lot of people here want a viable competitive MK game because it sells. MK with 2 and 3 became more popular than SF, despite SF being a better game. The style was more approachble to the masses, I remember hearing far more hype for MK4 than SF3.
Also I think boon thinks he invented the fireball.
"since the beginning, one of the things that's separated us from other fighting games is the crazy moves we've put in it, like fireballs and all the magic moves, so to speak."
pherai said:I haven't heard any huge outcry of competitive fighting game players for MK for be a competitive fighting game.
MrMoon said:Wow, Shutup.
1. I agree with 2d
2. No MK2 was one of the worst umk3 was far superior
3. Hit stun? Does this look like fucking MVC or a Capcom Game?
4. Variations? Of what?
5. Uhhh Okay? I never noticed it
6. Back to block? This isnt super turbo, It would defeat the purpose of MERCY or some fatalities like scorpions block back back forward p, I think thats for trilogy, I don't remember his UMK3 one but i have the book around here and the MK2 FT/Strats Book
7. This isnt super turbo
8. This isn't 3rd Strike
9. This isn't 3rd Strike or Garou stop trying to make it the same game just combined
10. You just sadi that for # 5, Repeating Yourself?
If you're gonna make a thread like this, Give some real reasons why its bad, And what should REALLY be changed instead of stupid shit. Sorry if my post seems rude just being honest.
ShotgunSteve said:Mr Moon, c.LP = b+LK ?
Tim Static said:I am right here.
I think the point of what the OP was trying to say is appreciated, but he lost me at point #2. No, no new MK should ever be just like MKII, unless its gore wise, and now it just doesnt matter anymore.
BRB with more
Tim Static said:WOW, The only one worth repeating was #1.
The MK community does NOT approve this post.
ugh.
MK isnt SF, never will. (insert funny joke thats NEVER been said here, har har har)
What makes MK, MK is block and run buttons. Kara jabs. no super meters. rushdown, pop-ups and sweeps. (your a tool if you get sweep raped, sorry.)
OP, next time consult someone who knows that they are talking about before you make an ass even more of MK. thanks
Tim Static said:Well, since you want to turn MK into SF then just stick with SF bro. It saddens me to say that, but thats what your trying to do.
While MKII was the most popular MK game ever, the gameplay in MKII is just SO slow and dated.
The first couple things Ed Boon and his staff must do to make MK viable again is do it in 2d again (w/ 3d sprites and to revisit the way they made MK3/UMK3. It was the ONLY time in the whole series they did a 2nd game based on the same style gameplay. (even tho technically UMK3 is just Mk3 Revision 3.2)
UMK3 IS the holy grail of all MK games, period. The gameplay, the depth & the style has never again been rivaled in the series, period. Thats a fact and anything else is just personal opinions.
Yin said:Yeah, UMK3-style in 2.5d (or high res photo-sprites lol) would be awesome and imo that would be getting MK back on the right path.
ShotgunSteve said:I wasn't trying to do anything, the MKProjects that throw MK characters into mugen are trying to make MK into SF.
I was just throwing ideas on if MK evolved (similar to how SF evolved and added more technical aspects, super meters, parry) if it could have maintained into the public eye (or at least the general fighting game community's eye).
Does the MK community like dial-combos? with MK2 I was thinking more of the combos that aren't preset.
OJuggernautO said:To "save" MK, they need to make the new game like UMK3. Just new gen style. That does not mean 3D, MK going 3D is one of the main reasons it's regarded as terrible. Stick to UMK3 game play, and 2D
oBryant said:alright, education time.
MK has guard damage off normals cause the projectiles are too slow and weak and really play no part in strategy but to add extra hits/damage to a combo or something. to avoid throws you just hold back. Sounds dumb? well there are tricks to ensure that you can throw someone, if you dont play at a high level you wont know that. Also throws arent as rewarding as juggles/combos are.
So, when you gaurd, your avoiding throws but there is still guard damage so there is no need for block stun cause you can just chip them away. Theres no parry/just defend cause the game doesnt need it to begin with.
If you would have to hold back for block his game would be retarded. Cause then there would HAVE to be overheads.
Then throw would HAVE to be assigned as a button. Then projectiles would HAVE to be made faster stronger and beter. thus turning this game into ST with retarded characters..
There you go. g watch some high-level umk3 videos and try to incorprate all that shit while you do. the game would just be another SF if so. and we dont need another sf we need another MK
Bob Sagat said:If they go back to 2D it would be awesome to use real actors again. With today's HD cameras, it would look awesome, plus it's less of a hassle then motion capturing and modelling etc.
ChiroToB said:I want to briefly add something about the block button. Take a moment and think about how blocking in most fighting games that use the back command to block actually work. From the moment your opponent initiates an attack, your character begins his/her block animation, essentially freezing them for a brief period of time. Now, I'm not going to touch on the 3D MK games, as they are the pinnacle of all that has gone wrong with MK, however(and I'll go more into detail on why UMK3 should be looked at as a competitive fighter when I get home from work), the block button in MK through MK4 provides a dynamic block that is only initiated when YOU choose to block. This sets up tactical advantages, feints, setups, etc. Instead of only blocking to defend, you can use your block button for setups, for mindgames, and for alot of other things. Think of a sweep in Street Fighter, and how you're stuck...well in MK, you can actually simply walk away from the sweep instead and then rush down after contact frames have ended. See, the block button is not bad, it's dynamic, and it's DIFFERENT
ShotgunSteve said:Point taken.
What is wrong with MK: Deception? I felt it was taking the 3D a step into the right direction.
ChiroToB said:Unfortunately, I feel that all the 3D style games in the MK series do not properly represent what MK really is. Again, I don't have a long time for this, but I'll briefly say a little on it.
When MK went to 3D(don't count MK4, as it's really 2.5d with full on 2d gameplay, no different than the SFEX games and SF4.) they took on properties that were inherently NOT Mortal Kombat. Keep in mind that the majority of the community that frowns on MK as a game, are mainly talking about the newer games, not the games we remember more fondly(which, for most of us who were in our mid to late teens when it came out, is MK2). Tekken, Virtua Fighter, DOA, and just about any other 3d fighter all do what they do better than the 3d MK games do. This includes MKDA, MKD, and MKA. The 3d MK games simply scrapped all they had worked to achieve with the 2d games, and went for a generic 3d fighter with MK characters and special moves. Honestly, there is very little difference in the type of game they are from other 3d fighters, other than that the other 3d fighters are so much better than the 3d MK games are. Basically, they did nothing to seperate themselves other than having MK characters as part of the cast. Then, and most importantly, all of them are so badly broken with infinites that they are nowhere near being considered competative.
Now, from what I'm told(I own MKDC but only play it casually), MKDC is a very underrated game that really does have the ability to be an in depth fighter, though not as deep as UMK3. MKDC is a step in the right direction for MK, but still not the game it could have been
ChiroToB said:One thing I also want to add about MK, and in particular UMK3. UMK3 is the pinnacle of MK. It's what they had initially strived to create, and didn't even realize it until it was too late and they were already into MK4, which further changed the properties of MK again. UMK3 has a very solid gameplay system that works for every character in the roster. Alot of people think that to "fix" MK means to take what it has become and modify/evolve it from there. I disagree... what it needs is to scale back to basics, to what was the best gameplay system it had, and go from there. This worked for Street Fighter. They have toyed and tinkered with their gameplay system countless times, yet the basic system has never really changed. It's remained a rock solid foundation of the game for a very long time and will continue to for a very long time to come. MK needs to take a page from that book and do the same. Go back to UMK3(not re-create it) but tinker with the system and see what happens. Talk to the REAL masters of the game(not the programmers or developers or game testers) and get some real pointers as to what was good, what needs tweaking, what needs fixing, what could be better, how to better balance some things, etc. Tweak UMK3's basic gameplay system and base new games on that with differences from there, just as Street Fighter has done
Ok, I think I covered all of the important posts in the thread. Tim, if I missed anything, please edit.