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I am trying to understand this. Why? You'd think I'd agree with everyone, but one thing I'm noticing is that Cage's dash helps him get in on Reptile well. None of Reptile's projectiles have any pushback and they all have ridiculously slow startup. Idk...anyone feel like highlighting what makes this so hard for Cage in detail? Because I'm not seeing it.
Ex slow force ball acts as a shield from johnny's jump ins. Johnny's Shadow kick is no comparison to the terror of Reptiles dash. Projectile trading is lost no doubt. Along with Reptiles unbelievable mixups. Reptile is one of Johnny's worst adversaries. But now that his f3 2 nutpunch loop is gone one of his greatest tools has been abolished.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I am trying to understand this. Why? You'd think I'd agree with everyone, but one thing I'm noticing is that Cage's dash helps him get in on Reptile well. None of Reptile's projectiles have any pushback and they all have ridiculously slow startup. Idk...anyone feel like highlighting what makes this so hard for Cage in detail? Because I'm not seeing it.
I'll just highlight a few things that are JC specific:

-Reptile creates a guessing game in his favor every time you pressure him. After a blocked neutral string (like f3,2) JC can d1 and it trades with other 6 frame moves. If JC wins (it hits) all he gets is a guaranteed blocked f3 again. If the trade goes in reptiles favor he gets 11% and away from JC. Worse yet, if reptile decides to just block d1 he can punish you with Elbow Dash. This will lead you to use d3 which is safe, but if he does elbow dash it wins every time.

-JC's F3, 3 xx EX forceball does not work due to hitbox issues with Reptile (and Ermac, just those two). That is a big loss in JCs pressure game and mindgames up close.

-Reptiles D4 xx acid hand jails and pushes back massively. This is the most overlooked thing that helps reptile against JC. It keeps him out so well and has insane range.

I won't go over reptile's zoning and all that, because i'm sure you know more about it than me. That's just major issues has once JC actually gets in.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Ex slow force ball acts as a shield from johnny's jump ins.
Don't forget that you can't run through it with EX shadow kick either, it'll launch JC. This never made much sense to me. For some reason, it negates the armor. Not that this would change the matchup much.
 
Don't forget that you can't run through it with EX shadow kick either, it'll launch JC. This never made much sense to me. For some reason, it negates the armor. Not that this would change the matchup much.
That sounds like a glitch? Is it while he is still holding it or while he is releasing?
 

jbthrash

Nut Breaker
Don't forget that you can't run through it with EX shadow kick either, it'll launch JC. This never made much sense to me. For some reason, it negates the armor. Not that this would change the matchup much.
That has never happened to me before. The ex shadow kick should go right through it. Idk, Myabe johnny only has armor for a few frames.
 

leek

Noob
That has never happened to me before. The ex shadow kick should go right through it. Idk, Myabe johnny only has armor for a few frames.
no no no, it's when you do ex shadow say when reptile does one forceball, you ex shadow, and then he does another. On the startup you get popped up. I think it has to be because the armor is set to when you hit the enemy, like a proximity thing. But since it lowers reptiles hit box, it goes over, and the ball catches you.
 

spongebob

ಠ__ಠ
no no no, it's when you do ex shadow say when reptile does one forceball, you ex shadow, and then he does another. On the startup you get popped up. I think it has to be because the armor is set to when you hit the enemy, like a proximity thing. But since it lowers reptiles hit box, it goes over, and the ball catches you.
I'm pretty sure its just because you only have armor for the 1 hit. You can still blow through the forceball on reaction before he has time to get another on screen.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
That sounds like a glitch? Is it while he is still holding it or while he is releasing?
Everytime I've attempted to go through it was when he was charging it, I'm not sure if it'd have the same results once it's released.

Idk, Maybe johnny only has armor for a few frames.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

I'm pretty sure its just because you only have armor for the 1 hit.
Well, my best guess is, the EX FB is glitched and has 2 hits on it. Though it only registers as one, perhaps it has do to with the size? I'm honestly not sure.
 

leek

Noob
I'm pretty sure its just because you only have armor for the 1 hit. You can still blow through the forceball on reaction before he has time to get another on screen.
I was fairly certain it had super armor. Can't test it now but I thought you could absorb multiple. no idea though for sure
 
I'm pretty sure the ex shadow kick has super armor, I've used it plenty to close space against sub and had it been used to close space as sub. His ex shadow kick is also a mid, so it's guaranteed to hit reptile in his force ball animation. I've never had the issue of being hit out of ex shadow kick unless i was about to die.
 

leek

Noob
I'm pretty sure the ex shadow kick has super armor, I've used it plenty to close space against sub and had it been used to close space as sub. His ex shadow kick is also a mid, so it's guaranteed to hit reptile in his force ball animation. I've never had the issue of being hit out of ex shadow kick unless i was about to die.
I've seen it happen but never had it happen to me.
 
I will agree a good Reptile can feel pretty impossible to overwhelm with Cage, which is bad because Cage is about overwhelming the opponent.

Maybe the forceball issue was fixed in the patch?
 

jbthrash

Nut Breaker
Wow cage just went from high mid tier to low mid.
I never understood how he was so high on the tier list when he has so many bad match ups. Kitanan, Sub-zero, Reptile, Milleena, Ermac. Kabal, Lui Kang, and Noob, Cyrax. Keep in mind that most of these characters are used often in tournaments.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Not sure I would say Ermac and Liu Kang are bad matchups, but yeah the others are for sure not in JCs favor.

If hes moving on the tier list (matchup wise) its because his bad match ups got worse. Armor to SZ and Reptile, as well as Noob buffs.

Kind of off topic but somewhat relevant:

I explain him to my friends who play FGs but not necessarily MK that hes like Zangief. He needs to get close and despite being fairly high on the tier list (probably low top 10) he has quite a few extremely lopsided matchups.

I really feel the Zangief vs Sagat match is much like JC vs Sub or JC vs Kitana.
 

Slymind

Noob
I'm really curious about how JC players are gonna play now, i saw many people denying it, but, with his F 3,2 gone, he was severely crippled, his projectile game is pretty much non-existent, and now his best way to approach the opponent has gone, on top of that Sub got a good amount of buffs, i think JC was the most well defined character in the game and should have left untouched.
 

sLeeK

Noob
I'm really curious about how JC players are gonna play now, i saw many people denying it, but, with his F 3,2 gone, he was severely crippled, his projectile game is pretty much non-existent, and now his best way to approach the opponent has gone, on top of that Sub got a good amount of buffs, i think JC was the most well defined character in the game and should have left untouched.
Well here's the thing, you can still bulldog your way in with F 3,2 on hit your still at massive advantage, but.... on the flip side yeah he was crippled. Even with that nerf it wouldn't of hindered him to much if half the cast didn't get armor -__-
 

MagicMan357

"130 ms is more legit than Labbing" - TYM
No lie i dont get the fuss because f3,2 should have never connected in the 1st place and you can still add a special after a blocked f3,2 and f3,3 is still in effect
 

sLeeK

Noob
No lie i dont get the fuss because f3,2 should have never connected in the 1st place and you can still add a special after a blocked f3,2 and f3,3 is still in effect
Well people are mad about it because they waited so long to nerf it.. When they nerfed ermacs string in the second patch? Yes you can still F3, 2 xx nutpunch, but if the enemy is holding block while you're doing that string the nutpunch will be blocked. F 3 3 xx nutpunch will still work and people are complaining about that because it is harder to HC.

So I don't know I've accepted it. I just want this damn patch to come out so I can adapt and continue playing cage.
 
No lie i dont get the fuss because f3,2 should have never connected in the 1st place and you can still add a special after a blocked f3,2 and f3,3 is still in effect
JC players have always understood that maining him means they'll have bad matchups. This latest patch makes his hard matchups even harder, while he's still going to dominate the characters he dominated all along. That's the source of my frustration: JC was fine the way he was. They've taken one of his best tools and buffed some of his worst enemies because Lord knows Reptile and Sub-Zero were shit tier before this patch :facepalm:
 

leek

Noob
JC players have always understood that maining him means they'll have bad matchups. This latest patch makes his hard matchups even harder, while he's still going to dominate the characters he dominated all along. That's the source of my frustration: JC was fine the way he was. They've taken one of his best tools and buffed some of his worst enemies because Lord knows Reptile and Sub-Zero were shit tier before this patch :facepalm:
perfectly said..
 

jbthrash

Nut Breaker
The only reason I think the nerf is dumb is that Reptile is at an even greater advantage, and JC gets nothing extra to beat his 7/3 matchups.

On another note, does F3, 2, ex forceball still frame trap if they high block the whole string?
 

evansgambit

Guardian of Outworld
Post edited to be more constructive.

If everyone gets an armoured enhanced move, Johnny Cage won't be able to win as easily through frame traps. It would be like pressuring, with the constant fear of a Street Fighter shoryuken reversal.

JC would have to get smart and bait it out. If he guesses right and baits right, he does 30%. If he's wrong, he gets knocked down and zoned out, possibly for the entire match.

To compensate him, NRS should give him safer pressure, maybe a safe special on block, like his projectile.