Menu
By:
Filters
What's new

Official UMK3:TE Changelog and Discussion Thread

mkholic

mkholic

Mortal
dubson said:
I don't think anyone is going to ask "why would anyone start a combo with elbow" IF it hits mid.... Yes, it is less functional (hitting High)... but I believe it was necessary, don't you? You can still have the same combo connect Mid, just out of Knee...

There are still times where its optimal to do his 3 hit pop-up over his 5 hit starting out of knee, for example if your near the corner it can lead to push back bc it pushes them too far into the corner.

Now he will be be better inclined to go for it out of a jump starter, knee starter or block-punish opposed to naked.

This tapers down his offense AND his corner damage potential.

He had two pathways to Good damage out of Mid. I honestly think that alone was too much, especially for a character designed like him. He still has his Knee starter... why does he need/deserve both? I think it was too much personally from an offensive/mix-up perspective. He obviously needed to be nerfed. Some characters can Barely get Decent damage out of Mid. Why does Kabal need/deserve so many options at this point?

and yes it did explain why some characters are "doomed" to have "bad normals". First of all "bad normals", lets be honest your basically referring to only Round Houses, as that is the complaint 90% of the time anytime people refer to "bad normals". Second, they are compensated elsewhere. Noone has "bad normals", thats too generalized. Someone may have a bad something, but nothing is unusable, and they have been compensated elsewhere. Some (most) with special moves, in regards to Anti-Air and there are plenty of Anti-Air options in this game and every character has some sort of options for Anti-Air. Third, Round House is only One of multiple options with Anti-Air out of Normals, including but not limited to Standing HK, Standing aaHP, Uppercut. I think its fair to say that Round House is actually usually the least functional out of the above options 90% of the time anyway and the one least used in high level play (outside of Liu Kang).

Fourth, Do you know how bad Street Fighter or any game would be if everyones Roundhouse were equally good? Sweeps? Everything? It would be retarded. No game exists like this and noone has an unusable move. They actually did a very good job in this part of the game. Be it on accident or on purpose.
Click to expand...
i specifically stated why u don't want to go for a knee starter with kabal
i don't mind it hitting higher i object to it retaining vanilla's startup, that's all
and i was not referring to RHs, there're other more questionable moves that need hacker's attention
 
dubson

dubson

Kombatant
mkholic said:
i specifically stated why u don't want to go for a knee starter with kabal
i don't mind it hitting higher i object to it retaining vanilla's startup, that's all
and i was not referring to RHs, there're other more questionable moves that need hacker's attention
Click to expand...
The reason it whiffs is a balancing cause.... It whiffs for balancing purposes, otherwise you would never have a chance to hit the guy. His "ride" is too hard.

You referred to "bad normals", I assumed it was RHs because that's usually how people bundle up "bad normals" and is usually what they are referencing.
 
Last edited:
dubson

dubson

Kombatant
R.E.O. said:
Nobody is saying RH needs to be buffed to be the only go-to anti air that is better than every other anti air 100% of the time. And how is giving some characters the option to anti-air with a roundhouse at a specific distance "too much"? If a female ninja, Sonya, Stryker, etc. etc. could make reads on an opponent jumping in from a distance and anti air with their roundhouse they would NOT all of a sudden be overpowered. This line of thinking is ridiculous and too over dramatic. How does that make sense? Male ninja teleporters take over half your life for a roundhouse. These newer characters giving the option to aa with their RH wouldn't. Female ninjas aren't going to sky rocket up the tier if they can use their roundhouses as traditional formal anti airs. And there are plenty of characters currently that have literally seven different ways to anti air that are NOT overpowered. Look at Scorpion, he can anti air with aaHP, aaHK, aa cr.HK, aaRH, aaSpear, aa Uppercut, aa Air Throw, aa Teleport on jump backs, come on dude... This silly notion of "if a character has too many options to anti-air, they will be OP" needs to go.

And anti airing roundhouse will NEVER be as good as anti-airing with specials or HKs. They are the slowest anti-airs (right after cr.HKs) and require heavy reading and planning to set one up. You can't just out of the blue be doing your thing and then all of a sudden the opponent jumps and smack them out of the air with a RH every single time. No. They're too slow for that. And you need to be walking back at a specific distance to properly set one up.
Click to expand...
I legitimately do fear what it would do to some characters giving them a great round house for anti-air. I don't say usable because technically they are all usable. It's almost a universal buff, and I think is unwarranted. Plus, it takes away from characters that received special moves to act as anti-air. If everyone just has every normal under the sun to anti-air, why have moves like Kitana and Sonya have (square punch or bicycle kick)? Or Cyrax (air slam) for anti-airing? These are just two examples, but... why have any special moves that are anti-airs...? They have every option as a normal, just like every other character in the game?

You don't think Kitana (for example) would jump up in the ranks even further with a great round house for anti-air? Her iAF alone makes jumping on her a joke. She has plenty of tools to zone you already, you want to increase her ability to anti-air you? Not to mention she has two dedicated Anti-Air moves in her Fan Wave and Square Punch.

So if Kitana gets a good RH (for Anti-Air) are you for all 3 of them getting it? Just based on that? Because I think they went into these characters design Knowing they shouldn't have a good round house... I really do. Imagine Jade knocking you right back into Boomerang Zone. Buffering a RH during her projectile spam. I can think of scenarios for every character that has a bad RH pretty much why they shouldn't have one...

The biggest problem may be that you never even mention the characters receiving a nerf to balance out the buff of their RHs.... Your otherwise basically referring to a blind, universal buff right now... in that every character have equally usable/functional normals.... It's all about give and take... I know it looks like Scorpion for example has everything... but then why isn't he Top Tier? Because A LOT goes into it...
 
Last edited:
dubson

dubson

Kombatant
R.E.O. said:
Some roundhouses are SO bad I would never use them over moves like Sheeva's HK or female ninjas uppercuts or aaHPs. Yes, that's right. I rather go for a aaHP (one of the most strict anti-airs) then try to aa with some characters roundhouses. Because the viability is that severe.
Click to expand...

RH was King of anti-airs in MKII, not so much in UMK3.

It was just part of their planned evolution, I feel...

EDIT: Female Ninja's even had horrid RHs back in MK2, yet are nowhere near the bottom of the tier list. Quite opposite, actually. Do they deserve to get their RHs buffed? Just because theirs suck? This "issue" goes beyond just UMK3....
 
Last edited:
REO

REO

Undead
dubson said:
I legitimately do fear what it would do to some characters giving them a great round house for anti-air. I don't say usable because technically they are all usable. It's almost a universal buff, and I think is unwarranted. Plus, it takes away from characters that received special moves to act as anti-air. If everyone just has every normal under the sun to anti-air, why have moves like Kitana and Sonya have (square punch or bicycle kick)? Or Cyrax (air slam) for anti-airing? These are just two examples, but... why have any special moves that are anti-airs...? They have every option as a normal, just like every other character in the game?

You don't think Kitana would jump in the ranks even further with a great round house? Her iAF alone makes jumping on her a joke. She has plenty of tools to zone you already, you want to increase her ability to anti-air you? Not to mention a dedicated Anti-Air move in her Fan Wave.

So if Kitana gets a good RH are you for all 3 of them getting it? Just based on that? Because I think they went into these characters design Knowing they shouldn't have a good round house... I really do. Imagine Jade knocking you right back into Boomerang Zone. Buffering a RH during her projectile spam. I can think of scenarios for every character that has a bad RH pretty much why they shouldn't have one...

The biggest problem may be that you never even mention the characters receiving a nerf to balance out the buff of their RHs.... Your otherwise basically referring to a blind, universal buff right now... in that every character have equally usable/functional normals.... It's all about give and take... I know it looks like Scorpion for example has everything... but then why isn't he Top Tier? Because A LOT goes into it...
Click to expand...
Dubson, I don't think you understand the picture. Either you know some secret roundhouse tech that I don't know or we're in a completely different page from each other. Roundhouses aren't "great" anti-airs. I see them get stuffed and beat out all the time. I would rank anti-airs for consistency being HK >> Uppercut >> RH. Sure, a few characters may have a better uppercut than their HK or something. But for the most part it's 1.) HKs, 2.) Uppercuts, 3.) RH / cr.HK regarding normals. And if your character has an all purpose anti-air in the form of a SPECIAL, then it's moves like Nightwolf Hatchet or Sonya Bike Kick >>>>>>>>> HK >> Uppercut > RH, etc. Roundhouses are one of the worse anti-airs compared to other options. They require too much positioning and are generally too slow to do on reaction.

What I'm trying to say is basically Roundhouses are OVERRATED. Unless you're a character who gets a full combo off a RH like a male ninja teleporter, the risk of going for a RH or making it your staple anti-air to go to is not worth the hassle.

And Kitana is already top tier, I doubt anything that wouldn't be too severe would make her go much higher. A RH buff that allows her to use it as an AA at certain ranges is not going to make her jump up the ranks, lol.
 
dubson

dubson

Kombatant
R.E.O. said:
Dubson, I don't think you understand the picture. Either you know some secret roundhouse tech that I don't know or we're in a completely different page from each other. Roundhouses aren't "great" anti-airs. I see them get stuffed and beat out all the time. I would rank anti-airs for consistency being HK >> Uppercut >> RH. Sure, a few characters may have a better uppercut than their HK or something. But for the most part it's 1.) HKs, 2.) Uppercuts, 3.) RH / cr.HK regarding normals. And if your character has an all purpose anti-air in the form of a SPECIAL, then it's moves like Nightwolf Hatchet or Sonya Bike Kick >>>>>>>>> HK >> Uppercut > RH, etc. Roundhouses are one of the worse anti-airs compared to other options. They require too much positioning and are generally too slow to do on reaction.

What I'm trying to say is basically Roundhouses are OVERRATED. Unless you're a character who gets a full combo off a RH like a male ninja teleporter, the risk of going for a RH or making it your staple anti-air to go to is not worth the hassle.

And Kitana is already top tier, I doubt anything that wouldn't be too severe would make her go much higher. A RH buff that allows her to use it as an AA at certain ranges is not going to make her jump up the ranks, lol.
Click to expand...
I agree that RHs are pretty much the least functional of anti-air options, Especially amongst high level play. I actually posted that a few posts up in a post to mkholic.

But I disagree on the impact I believe it Will have on the game. And to the Kitana scenario directly.

They obviously didn't want everybody just round housing people out of the air in this game... Or your vision would be...
 
mkholic

mkholic

Mortal
dubson said:
The reason it whiffs is a balancing cause.... It whiffs for balancing purposes, otherwise you would never have a chance to hit the guy. His "ride" is too hard.
Click to expand...
thats like saying that in vanilla certain chars've not been able to JPS female ninjas or that relaunches work on some chars better than on others for balancing purposes :DOGE
 
REO

REO

Undead
dubson said:
I agree that RHs are pretty much the least functional of anti-air options, Especially amongst high level play.

But I disagree on the impact I believe it Will have on the game.

They obviously didn't want everybody just round housing people out of the air in this game... Or your vision would be...
Click to expand...
Where did I ever say I want this game to turn into a roundhouse fest? How is me saying some characters should have a useful roundhouse instead of the USELESS 1% of the time in rare blue moon situations saying I want the game to become a game where roundhouse is the only viable anti-air?

I've said this already multiple times. Roundhouses should be treated like sweeps and jabs. NOBODY has useless sweeps or jabs. WHY do some characters have useless roundhouses? Keep some characters having "worse" roundhouses sure, but NOT to the degree where they become essentially useless.
 
dubson

dubson

Kombatant
mkholic said:
thats like saying that in vanilla certain chars've not been able to JPS female ninjas or that relaunches work on some chars better than on others for balancing purposes :DOGE
Click to expand...
is it, though?

i agree, there are some grey areas but in some areas I'm giving them more credit

R.E.O. said:
Where did I ever say I want this game to turn into a roundhouse fest? How is me saying some characters should have a useful roundhouse instead of the USELESS 1% of the time in rare blue moon situations saying I want the game to become a game where roundhouse is the only viable anti-air?

I've said this already multiple times. Roundhouses should be treated like sweeps and jabs. NOBODY has useless sweeps or jabs. WHY do some characters have useless roundhouses? Keep some characters having "worse" roundhouses sure, but NOT to the degree where they become essentially useless.
Click to expand...
Roundhouse isn't strictly an anti-air move though..... your speaking on strictly anti-air purposes when your referring to the roundhouse....
 
Last edited:
mkholic

mkholic

Mortal
dubson said:
is it, though?

i agree, there are some grey areas but in some areas I'm giving them more credit
Click to expand...
u're giving them more credit than due
it whiffs when it decides to, based on the chars' coldboxes, distance to them, speed u dial the combo with and FA
 
dubson

dubson

Kombatant
mkholic said:
u're giving them more credit than due
it whiffs when it decides to, based on the chars' coldboxes, distance to them, speed u dial the combo with and FA
Click to expand...
based on coldboxes, distance, speed of dialing and FA are "when it decides to" ? Sounds like exact reasons?
 
mkholic

mkholic

Mortal
dubson said:
based on coldboxes, distance, speed of dialing and FA are "when it decides to" ? Sounds like exact reasons?
Click to expand...
DWednesday said:
Surely, that's making a decision based on those exact factors?
Click to expand...
i made obvious what plays a main role, it's in friggin' bold
u don't have control over such exact factor and it's hard to find out who has FA before it's too late (unless u're a psychic)
EDIT:2..0.033 HYYYYPPE!
 
Shock

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
Juggs said:
Here's the Winner and Grand finals for UMK3:TE at KNA#14 this past weekend. Both were @NoDoubt vs @Shock!

Winners Final:

Grand Finals:
Click to expand...
You mean NoDoubt vs Slouch! Man did I suck it up. It's all good, he's a beastin' Kitana.

Sp1cun1t was a lot of fun to play against, I can't remember the last time I played him.

Anyway, this whole shit about normals, I'm pretty much done arguing about. Make normals MORE specific to each character = a yes from me, enhancing collision boxes just to make them connect more favorably = maybe from me, depends on the character. This will need to be reviewed and possibly one of thee very last things to be done, as it's really a trite aspect of the game when there's so much more to deal with. I remember someone complaining (could very well be one of you guys) many years ago that Kung Lao's uppercut cannot punish the robot ninja's TPU. Think outside the box people. aaHP JK is 1% more than an uppercut. If you can't do that, stop playing this game, right now! And the reason why I'm being such an ass about that is because the response I got was "But I want to punish with an uppercut" TOO BAD, it doesn't reach! So like, should aaHP, RH connect on everyone from every character in the same situation? No. If anything, I'd modify every hit box to never extend beyond the visual area of a character's sprite unless there are frames before it that could perceivably make contact if they were the hitbox, ie: an uppercut's range should be the frame with the furthest point the first reaches in front to the highest point the first reaches on the last frame before recovery, which in many cases, this basically is how it is, I would just tighten them all up to have the same standards in that sense, but necessarily create a standard of "better" - if Stryker has to pull his pant leg to get his leg of for a RH, maybe he's not going to get the range.

I'd like to see some more suggestions (and maybe a recap) for rebalancing what exists in the current build, what people really don't like, and love.
 
Last edited:
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I think the point @R.E.O. was making is that jumping is so powerful in UMK3:TE. The only consistent way to anti air is with anti air specials. The most reliable aa normal is a HK, but even it isn't consistent. And for crossups, the best aa normal is uppercut, which is inconsistent. Against a character like Kitana, there's very little you can do about her jumping all over you. I think jump ins should be nerfed to be like nearly every other legitimate competitive fighter. Where they have recovery upon landing so sweeps work as an aa 100% of the time if done correctly, aka trip guard. So instead of a universal aa buff, which I think is needed but not really plausible, I think a jump in nerf would be better. And empty jumps would be like they are now or less recovery than jk jump ins.

The argument of "Then AA's would be too powerful" or "Then jump in wouldn't be that useful" are not very good ones. Jump ins should be heavily discouraged, it should be your last option not your first option. With how it is now, the risk/reward is lopsided. Why not jump in? I may get aa'd, or my opponents inconsistent aa may not work and I get a jump in combo that does killer damage. You should only be jumping when it's a safe jump, to get over projectiles, and for reads. The way it is now, you have very little reason not to jump in unless you're playing against Kung Lao, Nightwolf, etc. A jump in combo should be rewarded to player who make good reads and have good reactions, not someone who got lucky my inconsistent anti air didn't work. And even if it did work, it's like, not much damage you're risking.
 
YourMKArcadeSource

YourMKArcadeSource

Your Source For All Things MK Arcade Related
I haven't had much time the last few months to really get deep into playing the game and testing things out. I've had 2 days off in the last 8 weeks. I just wanted to share what I spent the last hour or so doing. Nothing spectacular, just shifted things around a bit so I could fit the "Tournament Edition" text under the regular logo....

 
You must log in or register to reply here.