Official UMK3:TE Changelog and Discussion Thread

[REO]

I never really liked how slow UMK3 was either.

IMO, it feels like every normal in the game is clunky aside from jabs. And why is it when you're spamming down to duck and go back to neutral very quickly, it has like 15 frames of recovery transition if you do something like tap DOWN and then let your character go up on it's own? That's ridiculous. In almost every other fighting game, it takes 1 frame to transition into crouch and vice versa - extremely smooth with no delay. I'm also not a fan of the horrid walk speed that is very Injustice-esque. Most times it feels like you HAVE to jump or run to get rid of the muddy water feel and it's a slight turn off. It's almost like an involuntary switch of needing to either run or jump to maneuver properly. Sometimes you really don't understand how frustrating the movement can be in this game when you only touch ninja teleporters 1% of the time, lol.

Also things like hitting an opponent with a cr.HK and then them being able to run up and do their knee starter WHILE you're still recovering after hitting them is just.... Why? The awkward clunkiness in this game really needs to go.

In the grand scheme of things, most people just don't like slow. For me it's a personal pet peeve and I dislike when a game has slow features of core components that are slow.

 

[dubson]

^ That's why I'm not in a hurry to see jumping overheads with walking and everything the way it is nor do I want to induce more jumping than already feels, as you described. I would like to see standing overheads implemented first

 

[dubson]

The Impact of the Arcade version of UMK3 on U.S and some other countries its Huge. I know that, that is also why i feel like home, for being an open minded player i like to expand my horizon and knowledge to things beyond belief

Unfortunately, in my country when UMK3 were at the peak, MK Trilogy from PSX version came out, and we played that version for 13 years since its release (1997 -2010) there is still lots of them who still plays it even today, they consider the best game in the world.

The PC version made the pace so much faster, that they don't even care about glitch japs, cl.HK pressure and corner pressure, lots of them keep saying "I think this game would be a lot better if MK2 Kung Lao and all classics didn't had boss damage"

It saddens me, they don't see it, even if they hate MK2 KL, they just don't see the errors withing the game mechanics, they don't realize that once some characters starts rushing it down, the game becomes one sized and it can only be stopped if you manage to break the opponents momentum. They still don't see that there is almost no answer to offense, so they don't care.

i can only hope

This is ultimately the biggest problem with Glitch Jabs… kills the defensive element of the game

TE took kare of that

 

[haketh]

My question is how would overheads be implemented? Would they all be in strings? Would they be something you could do RAW? If they're able to be done raw how do you animate that?

 

[Konqrr]

IIRC, MKT is faster because the arcade is 53.2fps and the ps1/N64 version ran at 60fps.

Only just noticed (mainly because I hate the character) that Ermac's TKS still doesn't add a hit to the counter... What's the plan here?

The idea with Ermac was to still allow all of his UMK3 combos. He initially had the TKS count as a hit, but that required the disable to be one hit higher to still allow all of his combos and that allowed an extra hit before TKS in a punishment situation that was too strong. This is why the TKS will not count as a hit.

 

[dreemernj]

IIRC, MKT is faster because the arcade is 53.2fps and the ps1/N64 version ran at 60fps.


The idea with Ermac was to still allow all of his UMK3 combos. He initially had the TKS count as a hit, but that required the disable to be one hit higher to still allow all of his combos and that allowed an extra hit before TKS in a punishment situation that was too strong. This is why the TKS will not count as a hit.

I think it's just game design choice. MK3 on PSX ran normal speed. And I might be crazy, but I don't recall the gravity issues like early MKT PSX had.

MKT for PSX was great, when UMK3 for Arcade wasn't around. But the difference in gameplay quality and the difference in overall graphic quality make it a very poor substitute these days.

I would still like a speed option in UMK3 though

 

[Juggs]

So as it stands right now stand blocking is pointless. There's no overheads, but there is lows. And not only that, the pushback when crouching is much greater than when standing, there's almost no pushback when stand blocking. If we can't yet implement overheads, can we make stand blocking viable at least? Either by giving it more pushback than crouch blocking, or giving it less block stun.

I also agree with @R.E.O. about the walkspeed and movement. I think TE is already much better than Vanilla in that regard, but it could be even better. I definitely think the walk speed should be increased, even if it's just slightly. Like try out 10%, then we can either go down to 5%, go up to 15%, or stay at 10%. At the very least make the walking back speed quicker. Walkback speed is rather atrocious honestly. Forward walk speed could be better but you could always just run, you can't however run backwards. @Shock @Konqrr

 

[Shock]

I never really liked how slow UMK3 was either.

IMO, it feels like every normal in the game is clunky aside from jabs. And why is it when you're spamming down to duck and go back to neutral very quickly, it has like 15 frames of recovery transition if you do something like tap DOWN and then let your character go up on it's own? That's ridiculous. In almost every other fighting game, it takes 1 frame to transition into crouch and vice versa - extremely smooth with no delay. I'm also not a fan of the horrid walk speed that is very Injustice-esque. Most times it feels like you HAVE to jump or run to get rid of the muddy water feel and it's a slight turn off. It's almost like an involuntary switch of needing to either run or jump to maneuver properly. Sometimes you really don't understand how frustrating the movement can be in this game when you only touch ninja teleporters 1% of the time, lol.

Also things like hitting an opponent with a cr.HK and then them being able to run up and do their knee starter WHILE you're still recovering after hitting them is just.... Why? The awkward clunkiness in this game really needs to go.

In the grand scheme of things, most people just don't like slow. For me it's a personal pet peeve and I dislike when a game has slow features of core components that are slow.

UMK3 is not slow at all. Slow is MKII, MK1. MKT is a turbo boost to an already fast game. Remember, it's almost 20 years old. One of the fastest 2D games of its time. What you're talking about is some really specific recovery times that you are unhappy with, but are likely the way they are for a reason.

So as it stands right now stand blocking is pointless. There's no overheads, but there is lows. And not only that, the pushback when crouching is much greater than when standing, there's almost no pushback when stand blocking. If we can't yet implement overheads, can we make stand blocking viable at least? Either by giving it more pushback than crouch blocking, or giving it less block stun.

I also agree with @R.E.O. about the walkspeed and movement. I think TE is already much better than Vanilla in that regard, but it could be even better. I definitely think the walk speed should be increased, even if it's just slightly. Like try out 10%, then we can either go down to 5%, go up to 15%, or stay at 10%. At the very least make the walking back speed quicker. Walkback speed is rather atrocious honestly. Forward walk speed could be better but you could always just run, you can't however run backwards. @Shock @Konqrr

I don't think there needs to be any universal change to walk speed, especially forward walk since we have run. IMO, it should never be changed. Backward walk speed should not be as fast as forward walk. If there's a way to implement a backwards dash burst using the run bar, I'm all for that, as it's been mentioned.

 

[Juggs]

I don't think there needs to be any universal change to walk speed, especially forward walk since we have run. IMO, it should never be changed. Backward walk speed should not be as fast as forward walk. If there's a way to implement a backwards dash burst using the run bar, I'm all for that, as it's been mentioned.

What about the stand blocking?

 

[Shock]

IIRC, MKT is faster because the arcade is 53.2fps and the ps1/N64 version ran at 60fps.

There's a chance it could simply be just that, because if you bring MKT down to 53/54 FPS in an emu, it feels like UMK3. However, as Dreemer pointed out, MK3 wasn't like this for PSX, or PC. It was probably something they let slide rather than implementing something to hold the frame rate.

What about the stand blocking?

It's been a long time coming that there should be something somewhere to make characters choose a standing block. It'll be there, I just don't know good it can be with how the 2D MKs work. I think this is why overheads and lows are so stupid in MK9 and Injustice. When I say stupid, I mean, they make no sense half the time and are way too fast, and lead to WAY too much damage at times. In a perfect world, there will be no overheads that aren't reaction blockable that lead to any kind of damage, and if there are any that are fast, they will only force a standing block, or lead to additional pressure. As I've said, even the fastest players still get caught with a sweep once in a while. The sweep frame data will probably be the bar to judge command overheads, if and when they happen. I don't think anyone would disagree that overheads in some capacity need to exist. The only advantage to stand blocking right now I THINK, is the minuscule differences in recovery time that happen if you duck out of block while stand to do say, an uppercut as a punish.

Edit: I will add that preventing throws standing and blocking lows on command is a lot easier than always landing the D+B sweet spot while blocking.

Had to have been the way they converted the format of the MK3 to redbook cd audio.
If they really wanted something to build off of, they should have used the DOS version of MK3. Probably the truest Port of any fighting game ever

The DOS version is very good, I still have it. IIRC the resolution was slightly off, and if not for the weird, inverted transparent blood, it'd be a masterpiece of a transition. The audio tracks for it are custom I think. They have some pieces of the music that aren't in the arcade and are simply just full versions that loop in a way the arcade does not. There are fade outs where you can hear distinct changes that it sounds like they were going to do more with them.

 

[Eddy Wang]

This is ultimately the biggest problem with Glitch Jabs… kills the defensive element of the game

TE took kare of that

Oh yeah, indeed it did. I showed to them what changed, they welcomed the changes and got pleased, but most of them were really sad that those changes weren't on MK Trilogy who has a much faster pace and have some more exclusive moves like: Sektor's double dumb missile, Stryker's double grenade tosses, scorpion's forward teleport etc.

 

[GetSpookd]

most of them were really sad that those changes weren't on MK Trilogy

More people play UMK3, "we" somewhat already know how to hack/modify its rom, so obviously UMK3 would have priority in this.

(MKT) have some more exclusive moves like: Sektor's double dumb missile, Stryker's double grenade tosses, scorpion's forward teleport etc.

IIRC, it was said that Sektor will get some buffs/changes and double dumb missile was taken in consideration. Same goes for Scorp forward teleport (so much yes about this one). Stryker will get some changes to his nades, I think double nade from MKT was taken in consideration aswell.

Altho I do feel their "pain" cause I love the faster tempo and various things MKT has, I do think hacker should take care of UMK3 first.

EDIT : Also, did the hack got some overall speed changes or something ? It does feel kind of faster. Or maybe its just because I constatly play as Cyrax, which got superbly faster <3

Any thoughts about glitched animations, where the first frame of dial kombo overlays with opponent first frame of his dial kombo (even tho you are the one who gets it first but you get your ass kicked anyway)? Like, it obviously looks like you're the one who connected first but it kind of gets ignored and the opponent finishes the dial. I might have put it in a wrong way, let me know if you get what Im taking about.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Altho I do feel their "pain" cause I love the faster tempo and various things MKT has, I do think hacker should take care of UMK3 first.

EDIT : Also, did the hack got some overall speed changes or something ? It does feel kind of faster. Or maybe its just because I constatly play as Cyrax, which got superbly faster <3

Not sure, overall i personally think i can get used to the speed the hack version offers.

Any thoughts about glitched animations, where the first frame of dial kombo overlays with opponent first frame of his dial kombo (even tho you are the one who gets it first but you get your ass kicked anyway)? Like, it obviously looks like you're the one who connected first but it kind of gets ignored and the opponent finishes the dial. I might have put it in a wrong way, let me know if you get what Im taking about.

Definitely i don't understand what you're talking about, but it seems is something related to knee starter or elbow starter trade, am i correct?

 

[GetSpookd]

Definitely i don't understand what you're talking about, but it seems is something related to knee starter or elbow starter trade, am i correct?

Yeah, IIRC it happens on knee starter aswell, but its more visible on elbow. The first frame , the one you start the dial combo, the one in which it "connects" to the opponent, it should appear for the player who was faster and sometimes it happenes (at least to me) to see my char elbow first frame hit the guy in the same time he got me with his elbow aswell. Mine was first, and his first elbow animation overlayed on mine, he got to finish the dial kombo, I dont (even tho as I stated, my first anim frame, showed up first).

@tehdrewsus Talked about some anims "feeling" funny and glitchy. I think that might be a part of it.

 

[dreemernj]

The DOS version is very good, I still have it. IIRC the resolution was slightly off, and if not for the weird, inverted transparent blood, it'd be a masterpiece of a transition. The audio tracks for it are custom I think. They have some pieces of the music that aren't in the arcade and are simply just full versions that loop in a way the arcade does not. There are fade outs where you can hear distinct changes that it sounds like they were going to do more with them.

We should bust that out and get it running on a modern PC. That'd be fun.

There's a million reasons why the different versions could have different problems. I think the simplest and best explanation is different devs doing things different ways. We sort of figured out that the gravity issues in MKT for PSX indicated that they kept some of the game logic for big sprites even though it didn't work right for the small sprites that went into the ports. That's a stupid mistake and not all devs would make that mistake.

 

[REO]

What if there was a form of "push block" you could do but it requires you to be STANDING and you need full run in order to do it? It would push the opponent back kinda of like the jab flurry hit reaction (not too far away, like right outside sweep) and it would drain your entire run bar and give it a four or five second cooldown penalize before your run meter can start gradually restoring.

This suggestion may be too far out there, but that's really the only way I think you could make stand blocking viable in some way.

UMK3 is not slow at all. Slow is MKII, MK1. MKT is a turbo boost to an already fast game. Remember, it's almost 20 years old. One of the fastest 2D games of its time. What you're talking about is some really specific recovery times that you are unhappy with, but are likely the way they are for a reason.

Well is there any reason why the ducking to standing transition, and vice versa is so slow and clunky? Can't that be sharpened up a bit like how the hacker made the clunky forward and backward walk speed stuttering for MK2 go away? Also roundhouses need a buff in some way so they're not so useless for so many characters. I think everybody but male ninja teleporters and Liu Kang should receive a bigger hitbox to their roundhouse. And cr.HKs recovery should also be shortened to what they are on block for when they hit. I think it's -4 on block and -8 on hit or something, cr.HK should be -4 on both hit and block and not so awful on hit.

 

[dubson]

Maybe some of that (slow transition from duck to stand) has to do with the fact that they didn't want people to be able to go from going for an uppercut to a standing anti-air at Will... this game is kind of unique with the uppercuts and its a fine line between having them be half as effective as they were in MK1/2 and useless with the addition of a run meter, faster gameplay, bigger kombos, etc. There is a certain point where if your invested into going for something (like an uppercut) your options from being so invested in it to saving your ass should be limited and balanced. Granted it may not be like this in MK9 for example (slow rise from duck to stand), there are pretty big differences in gameplay and generation that it may not be fair to directly use as a comparison to UMK3. It is interesting, though, as this problem is a big reason why you could be infinitely jabbed to death in the corner. It creates problems with people trying to stand out of jab pressure in general, particularly against the female ninjas.

 

[Shock]

What if there was a form of "push block" you could do but it requires you to be STANDING and you need full run in order to do it? It would push the opponent back kinda of like the jab flurry hit reaction (not too far away, like right outside sweep) and it would drain your entire run bar and give it a four or five second cooldown penalize before your run meter can start gradually restoring.

This suggestion may be too far out there, but that's really the only way I think you could make stand blocking viable in some way.



Well is there any reason why the ducking to standing transition, and vice versa is so slow and clunky? Can't that be sharpened up a bit like how the hacker made the clunky forward and backward walk speed stuttering for MK2 go away? Also roundhouses need a buff in some way so they're not so useless for so many characters. I think everybody but male ninja teleporters and Liu Kang should receive a bigger hitbox to their roundhouse. And cr.HKs recovery should also be shortened to what they are on block for when they hit. I think it's -4 on block and -8 on hit or something, cr.HK should be -4 on both hit and block and not so awful on hit.

Again, I don't think it's necessarily slow, it's the animation that is available, and the different states they need to be in to determine whether or not to stand or duck when hit. Even if you look at newer games, they will just make the animations happen faster even if they are 3D, there just happens to be actual animation happening where you don't see it in the 2D MKs. Typically in 2D MK, you can sort of mix your ducking and standing into other movements and buffers.

The MKII walk nonsense for some characters (same with MK1 for all) was addressed by eliminating the need for a full cycle of animation to happen based on the slightest tap of a direction. Throughout all 2D MK, the ducking remains the same. They gradually moved towards incremental walk for all because it's better and simulates sideways movement better. It's a clear transition between 1 and 3.

IMO, some characters moves should be better than others. If everyone's RH hits the same all the time, that sucks. Everything from standing jabs, to ducking LKs have slight differences that inherently change how characters focus their game. For example, Kano's ducking LK iirc, bites, Kung Lao and Sonya can use theirs all day. Subzero and Sheeva have slower RHs, Sonya's hits really fast but has a stange collision box. Male ninjas have ideal RH, Kabal Kung Lao and Liu Kang have outrageous RH.

All these shortenings of recovery times are going to lead to problems, I predicted it before we started and we've seen it happen already. It has to be done right.

I proposed the idea of a pushblock in the corner (and only the corner) that is manual and uses run. I don't know how players would respond to this kind of mechanic. It's something I can deal with, but it is a bit out there, yes. This, or making the jab push back ONLY happen when the opponent is completely against the wall.

 

[REO]

But to me it feels like some characters have roundhouses and some just don't... When I'm playing a character like Jade or Robo Smoke, the round house is basically non-existent to me. Things like this are bad. You never want to have moves that are not viable. Am I really the only person that feels this way? I don't see how having more options for every character is a bad thing.

Sure, some moves should be better for some than others. But when it gets to a point where the move is next to useless for some, that's wrong. Useless moves that fill up spots are just dumb, IMO. Isn't it bad enough how we have moves like cr.LP and cr.HK which are on the fence of being near useless or very situational? We don't need to add to that list, we need to shorten it as much as possible and make every move viable in it's own way.

Sweeps are a perfect example of this. EVERYONE has viable and usable sweeps. No one has virtually useless sweeps. Same with jabs. That's how it should be.

 

[dubson]

Viability is relative... No one move has simply One purpose/point. Everything affects everything...

Your not the only one who wants characters like Jade and Robots to have viable anti airs... but like Shock said it all has to revolve around everything else, and isn't that easy. If it was that easy, it wouldn't be a good game for kompetitive play...

The roundhouse believe it or not is not designed to be strictly an anti-air...and in MK1 and MKII, its heavily used as a ground mix-up.

You could actually argue the uppercut is more of a move designed to be strictly an anti-air. MK is very unique to that regard. Excluding moves like Nightwolf's Axe and Kung Lao Spin, there aren't many moves developed to be true anti-airs in MK because of this universal move. There aren't really many moves like those, or like "Shoryuken type moves", if you were to compare to like Street Fighter, King of Fighters, or most other traditional 2d fighting games. And you can see the multiple purposes of moves like NW Axe and KL Spin and their combing abilities, as well. You could argue sweeps are a move designed for one purpose in this game, and it would just be hitting low, but it knocks down and creates set-ups. So it will depend on the characters design and balance. The uppercut though is also an extremely strong defensive move and finisher/chip/mix-up. The argument at the end of the day is, if it was a computer playing the character, there are no bad Roundhouses, jabs, throws, anything. Everything is possible. High Level play changes (amongst humans) changes everything.

Use their standing HK's. They have good HK's anti-air. Or uppercut. Or standing HP. Certain characters are better in different areas based around their design, and balancing (to other characters/match-ups).

Robots for example could be argued really are made to make you play a game of hot potato like Cyrax and Sektor can do. A lot of their play CAN be based off of zoning and especially in Cyrax's case, directly make you jump off the ground a lot. And he has that air throw Move which should definitely be upgraded. If they had top tier roundhouse it would probably be too good. Same with female ninjas and their incredible jabs. That's how they did it in MK and IDK how much you can really change it. They kind of based it off of hitbox's and opposing haiboxes, and correlated that to the character's design opposed to just the character's design without their hitboxes in mind (or at least not at top priority). They wanted juggling to have a bigger presence in this game. But there needs to be intricate ground play (as always), and a fine balance between the two elements. They always just wanted bigger combos, obviously. Opposed to like... MK1 and MKII. It was just a kompletely new beast in many aspects, but still MK at the same time.

Although, I do agree, that it may not have to be Universal as far as like, all three robots (For Example) to necessarily Have to have the same everything. But this game is really old. They already have what's optimal to the character (and their hitbox/design) and they did a good job on making it fair as far as who hits who better or worse IMO. I think its pretty good, obviously. IDK how much you could really change much of that without Really changing like the entire moves animation. I'm thinking some of it also has to do with having digitized actors and what not as far as them trying to have better graphics than what was possible at the time....

 

[REO]

So roundhouses should remain useless for some characters because they have other anti airs? Then WHY do male ninjas have good anti air uppercuts, HKs, round houses, etc.?

This is not balance. This is favoritism and it's incredibly lame.

 

[dubson]

So roundhouses should remain useless for some characters because they have other anti airs? Then WHY do male ninjas have good anti air uppercuts, HKs, round houses, etc.?

This is not balance. This is favoritism and it's incredibly lame.

Their jabs are not as good as female ninjas? their standing HK is equally good (anti-air). uppercuts anti air basically just as good. Females probably have the better sweep. It's a long list of things you have to go through. It's all about spacing and that also differs/depends on things like sprites, animations and walk speed. It's also beyond just the scope of normals, like hitboxes and animations, match-ups and based around their hatboxes/design on separate levels, etc like I said. It's just One slice of the Pie.

 

[REO]

Their jabs are not as good as female ninjas? their standing HK is equally good (anti-air). uppercuts anti air basically just as good. Females probably have the better sweep. It's a long list of things you have to go through. It's also beyond just the scope of normals, like hitboxes and animations, match-ups and based around their hatboxes/design on separate levels, etc like I said. It's just One slice of the Pie.

Female jabs are better than male ninjas, but male ninjas jabs are not USELESS like the roundhouse debate. Same argument with sweeps. And anti airing HKing with a female ninja is less consistent than male ninjas in the heat of battle.

My point is, I really don't care who has the "better" normal. Just please don't keep some of the normals useless for some characters.

 

[dubson]

It's not like we have the same engine that like Capcom (or midway/NRS) has to develop their game, and we can change the entire move. We have a gracious hacker from what I can tell. Also this game had digitezed actors and they had to film every move's animation and recycled actors.

 

[REO]

Yeah, but saying the characters who have next to useless roundhouses should receive a slightly bigger hitbox isn't too demanding I would think. The hacker did change more advanced moves such as slightly decreasing the hitbox on Kabal's spin, increasing the hitbox on Stryker's riot gun, and various other changes to hitbox sizes.

Why couldn't the hacker be able to give characters who have useless roundhouses a slightly bigger hitbox?