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Konsider the Following: Ep. 4 -- Podcast Ft. LotF, King Hippo, Coolwhip, Saucy and Home Lee

What is your drink of choice? (you may choose more than one)


  • Total voters
    88

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
lol, someone just told me that I was bashing MK9 to "fit in."

OK let me be clear, I like MK9 more than I like Injustice. In fact, it is my favorite game of all time. I was NOT bashing MK9. But the game is glitchy. This is a fact. The point I was making is, due to the amount of glitches and inconsistencies, you actually have a bigger chance of losing to real bullshit that is out of your control in MK9 than you do in Injustice. For instance, there's no telling when the input bug might occur. If I'm playing against Cyrax and I try to D4 only to get a fucking 78 frame standing 4, guess what happens? Yeah, good games. (@GGA Dizzy is there a science behind the input bug or is it random? I've spent hours in practice mode trying to figure out a pattern and it just seems completely unpredictable).

The Scorpion ex spear is another example. I don't know if there's a science behind why it goes through the opponent's body sometimes, but let's just say that when you have two different reads to make before throwing it out (will my opponent press buttons? If he does, will the game screw me?), then there's a measure of randomness behind it.

And yeah, Dizzy's right. Technically, the meter drain glitch isn't random. If I understand correctly, it occurs if you input the move on the last frame before your opponent's move comes out. But, in the heat of battle, it's not like you're going to time it. If I get meter drained, I'm not thinking "my timing/execution sucks" (though maybe I should lol), I'm thinking "this is bullshit."

Meanwhile, in Injustice, if I block low and you go overhead, I'm going to get hit 100% of the time. If I block high and you go low, I'm going to get hit 100% of the time. There's nothing random about the outcome. You make a read/guess and deal with the results accordingly. Now, we can debate safe 50/50's, and how salty does it make someone feel to lose because they "guessed wrong" but that's a different topic.
I think there was a conclusion on why it happens. Something about an input dropping on a certain frame. Id have to dig it up as i dont remember what it was exactly.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Gotta say, I have finally taken the time to listen to this show and Wow... I am impressed. @KingHippo you're an awesome host. From the show's intro to the format, etc... I officially feel like an asshole for my comment on the other thread.

@HomeLee1121 @coolwhip @AK L0rdoftheFLY @GGA Saucy Jack

Granted, I haven't listen too far in yet but good shit, guys.
It is appreciated..much so. We (and I mean me when I say this) get more drunk as we go. However I suggest to keep listening cause its just better that way. hahahahahahaha
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
lol, someone just told me that I was bashing MK9 to "fit in."

OK let me be clear, I like MK9 more than I like Injustice. In fact, it is my favorite game of all time. I was NOT bashing MK9. But the game is glitchy. This is a fact. The point I was making is, due to the amount of glitches and inconsistencies, you actually have a bigger chance of losing to real bullshit that is out of your control in MK9 than you do in Injustice. For instance, there's no telling when the input bug might occur. If I'm playing against Cyrax and I try to D4 only to get a fucking 78 frame standing 4, guess what happens? Yeah, good games. (@GGA Dizzy is there a science behind the input bug or is it random? I've spent hours in practice mode trying to figure out a pattern and it just seems completely unpredictable).

The Scorpion ex spear is another example. I don't know if there's a science behind why it goes through the opponent's body sometimes, but let's just say that when you have two different reads to make before throwing it out (will my opponent press buttons? If he does, will the game screw me?), then there's a measure of randomness behind it.

And yeah, Dizzy's right. Technically, the meter drain glitch isn't random. If I understand correctly, it occurs if you input the move on the last frame before your opponent's move comes out. But, in the heat of battle, it's not like you're going to time it. If I get meter drained, I'm not thinking "my timing/execution sucks" (though maybe I should lol), I'm thinking "this is bullshit."

Meanwhile, in Injustice, if I block low and you go overhead, I'm going to get hit 100% of the time. If I block high and you go low, I'm going to get hit 100% of the time. There's nothing random about the outcome. You make a read/guess and deal with the results accordingly. Now, we can debate safe 50/50's, and how salty does it make someone feel to lose because they "guessed wrong" but that's a different topic.
Input bug isn't random; there's a specific window where if you press down, then press an attack, the down isn't registered and the attack comes out as a standing normal. The window is something like 100ms-200ms after down is pressed (I'm totally pulling this out of my ass but there's a thread with testing about it somewhere around here), so it is most likely to occur when you're either "pianoing" by doing down then 1, or if you're mashing d+1,11111111 (usually in this case, the second or third poke is standing). You can train yourself to not piano the inputs so it's not totally random.

Meter drain occurs when you're trying to mash an armor move, but there aren't enough frames for the armor to activate. It also occurs when you mistime a very tight punish window. IMO it's actually not that big of a deal, because if you have studied the frame data, you know where you're actually able to armor out.

There's plenty of inconsistencies analogous to EX Spear in Injustice, too, but that's due to the nature of the NRS engine. Martian's overhead teleport randomly crossing up is a big one as well as the hitboxes on "floating" characters.

One of the biggest inconsistencies that people don't really talk about is variable move duration and recovery in Injustice. Try recording a perfect instant air zod ball for the AI to perform constantly. If you do it low enough, a whiffed zod ball will let the AI perform another IAZB, but if you block the instant zod ball (even from full screen), the recovery time lengthens and the AI simply performs a neutral jump. The same thing happens to Grundy with repeated moves like d2~wc cancel.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
First of all, even rock paper scissor tournaments show signs of consistency. And that's as random as it gets. But anyway...

I think Injustice and MK9 are both equally 'random'. Injustice is a simpler game, so the ceiling is lower and more people can touch that ceiling making it possible to lose to people that aren't as good as you if the game took more skill.

MK9 defintely takes more skill, but the balance is awful and I agree with coolwhip, the glitches are game-killing. I understand they aren't random but they are practically unavoidable when they happen. There's no glitch in Injustice that is as devestating as input bug and meter drain glitch. A @GGA HAN story is that he was playing a Reptile player in tournament and it went down to the last round. He was down to a pixel and hadn't touched the Reptile player yet. The Reptile player tried to d4 and got standing 4 instead. Han whiffed punished and killed him with a 100% unbreakable combo. I mean I'm glad Han won but that is a terrible story lol.

And again, if you aren't playing a top 15 character in MK9, you have 0% chance at cracking a top 8 at a major. Meaning it doesn't matter how good you are when the matchups are that devestating. Injustice is much better about that.
 
Imo the reason why injustice is called random by people is because they can't be in control all the time just because their spacing is immaculate. This doesn't mean its random, the game just caters to a different type of skill. Spacing is still very important in injustice, but it won't allow you to play like a johnny cage for example. Just my opinion.
 

coolwhip

Master
Input bug isn't random; there's a specific window where if you press down, then press an attack, the down isn't registered and the attack comes out as a standing normal. The window is something like 100ms-200ms after down is pressed (I'm totally pulling this out of my ass but there's a thread with testing about it somewhere around here), so it is most likely to occur when you're either "pianoing" by doing down then 1, or if you're mashing d+1,11111111 (usually in this case, the second or third poke is standing). You can train yourself to not piano the inputs so it's not totally random.
But realistically speaking, in a tournament setting, it might as well be random, because nobody's really going to properly time it every time. And even if you can, the mere fact that you have to think about something as simple as inputting "D1" is pretty messed up.

I understand they aren't random but they are practically unavoidable when they happen.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. There's very little control you have over them, especially in tournament when you're worried about your opponent, his character, making the right reads, etc... You shouldn't be thinking about whether the game will screw you over.
 
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Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
Really entertaining/fun podcast! I look forward to future episodes. And I agree that Injustice as a game is not random. Think the strongest evidence of that is the consistency of tournament placings.

@coolwhip

I think it's taking it too far (being far too semantical) when you say that 50/50s are not random though. Sure the process of determining whether or not you get hit is defined and predictable (if you block high and they went low you will be hit every time), but the overall outcome is definitely random. Once the 50/50 is initiated, the two possibilities (getting hit or not) have equal chances of happening assuming both players are familiar with the mixup - this is the very definition of random.

Would be a stronger point if you just pointed out that better players avoid getting subjected to 50/50s all the time, and put their opponents into 50/50s instead.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
@AK L0rdoftheFLY Did you go back and timestamp all episodes or just this one? In any case, thanks for doing that, it definitely helps those who can't listen to the full thing at once.

Also, for drink(s) of choice, I like drinks that taste good. I have an unusually high tolerance for alcohol considering how infrequently I drink, so drinking regular beer or something is pointless for me. Anyway, my favorite drink is a White Russian, followed by a Pina Colada, 3rd place is Jack & Coke, finally... shots of Fireball. Fireball gets me more drunk than anything though, I do not know why. I also love some Bacardi Zombie, it's blue and tastes godlike.

At this bar I play poker at, they sometimes do surprise shots that are random as hell as they mix random shit together and serve them for half price (lol). I always try them, but one time they had one that was the best shit I've ever had. I asked what it was, but completely forgot the next day. I asked a week later but they didn't remember as they do them a lot, they have yet to recreate the masterpiece. :(
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
@AK L0rdoftheFLY Did you go back and timestamp all episodes or just this one? In any case, thanks for doing that, it definitely helps those who can't listen to the full thing at once.

Also, for drink(s) of choice, I like drinks that taste good. I have an unusually high tolerance for alcohol considering how infrequently I drink, so drinking regular beer or something is pointless for me. Anyway, my favorite drink is a White Russian, followed by a Pina Colada, 3rd place is Jack & Coke, finally... shots of Fireball. Fireball gets me more drunk than anything though, I do not know why. I also love some Bacardi Zombie, it's blue and tastes godlike.

At this bar I play poker at, they sometimes do surprise shots that are random as hell as they mix random shit together and serve them for half price (lol). I always try them, but one time they had one that was the best shit I've ever had. I asked what it was, but completely forgot the next day. I asked a week later but they didn't remember as they do them a lot, they have yet to recreate the masterpiece. :(
just this one
 

coolwhip

Master
Really entertaining/fun podcast! I look forward to future episodes. And I agree that Injustice as a game is not random. Think the strongest evidence of that is the consistency of tournament placings.

@coolwhip

I think it's taking it too far (being far too semantical) when you say that 50/50s are not random though. Sure the process of determining whether or not you get hit is defined and predictable (if you block high and they went low you will be hit every time), but the overall outcome is definitely random. Once the 50/50 is initiated, the two possibilities (getting hit or not) have equal chances of happening assuming both players are familiar with the mixup - this is the very definition of random.

Would be a stronger point if you just pointed out that better players avoid getting subjected to 50/50s all the time, and put their opponents into 50/50s instead.
I agree with your first point that it's semantical/technical, and I said as much. However, I touched on your second point by providing the Catwoman example, ie it's not like she can just J2 from any range and get a 50/50). As in, it's not like you're put in an automatic situation where you have to make a guess. There are ways to avoid it. Obviously nobody's going to avoid it all the time but that's how this game works. People can say they don't like that much of the offense in the game is built around 50/50's, but "random" implies something else entirely.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
I forgot him. Dave is also really funny.
There can also be biggest downplayer
Most improved player
Player most likely to do really well in MKX
And best prop fisher.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Loved the 1st. Like the 3rd. 2nd was meh. The other two are garbage.
...I can agree with that, yeah. 2 wasn't a bad movie, but it just didn't have a strong enough antagonist. Not like Hans and Simon, anyway.
 
[quote="coolwhip, post: 1536784, member: 11187" is there a science behind the input bug or is it random? [/quote]

It was broken down but I can't remember the exact data behind it. The input bug would always come out during certain conditions, however it was so obscure the input bug for all intents and purposes was random.
 

Jeremy KO

*insert kotal kahn gibberish here*
nope...this one was randomly bad for me. The first 3 I have been told were good in the sound department and sound levels were decent. I'll work to fix the issue for KTF 5.

Sorry this one was skipping some.
Nahhh I'm not criticizing you specifically. I would just love to one day have a nether realm community themed podcast that was professionally recorded in an recording room, instead of over a skype conversation.