Official UMK3:TE Changelog and Discussion Thread

[Konqrr]

Also, what about views on h. Smoke having a safe invis option after his popup (popup, invis, spear... etc) and robo & rep not currently having an option like this?

Any pros? Cons?

@AK Juggs

They do have options to do Invis... Reptile after orb hits, smoke after anti air into tele then spear.

 

[DWednesday]

They do have options to do Invis... Reptile after orb hits, smoke after anti air into tele then spear.

Both of those seem far more situational than H.Smokes options? Again, I might just be looking at this completely wrong :/

smoke after anti air into tele then spear.

Is this doable with the 6 extra frames before the spear? (2 for spear start up, 4 for invis recovery)

 

[Konqrr]

Both of those seem far more situational than H.Smokes options? Again, I might just be looking at this completely wrong :/
Is this doable with the 6 extra frames before the spear? (2 for spear start up, 4 for invis recovery)

The additional startup frames only mean the harpoon doesn't have a hitbox for two more frames than before, it changes nothing with the total move duration. The recovery makes it so this is not possible right now (4 more frames)... but it will be made to work in certain situations I am sure. This is why we test this stuff out before he releases the hack.

Human Smoke has to get a knee lift popup to safely activate invisibility, which means he opened up his opponent. How is this any different than Reptile landing an orb? I can see the difference with Robo-Smoke, but you can't have everything the same.

 

[DWednesday]

The additional startup frames only mean the harpoon doesn't have a hitbox for two more frames than before, it changes nothing with the total move duration. The recovery makes it so this is not possible right now (4 more frames)... but it will be made to work in certain situations I am sure. This is why we test this stuff out before he releases the hack.

That's what I was referring to, 4 more for the recovery of the invisibility, and 2 more for the harpoon hitbox to take effect. It wouldn't matter about total duration of the the move, considering you plan on connecting it. The extra frames (admittedly, it's not a great amount) would imply it has a greater chance of whiffing. (Again, totally not asking for "easy-mode")

Human Smoke has to get a knee lift popup to safely activate invisibility, which means he opened up his opponent. How is this any different than Reptile landing an orb? I can see the difference with Robo-Smoke, but you can't have everything the same.

I wasn't suggesting that everything should be the same, my thoughts were basically just "Getting the knee-lift combo branches from a lot of different situations (rushdown, aa's, punishes, the lucky naked spear connection, etc), and I kinda see the orbs as the same (rushdown, aa's, punishes, zoning, etc) (although I don't really play Reptile so I'm probably horrifically wrong)".

Like I said earlier, I understand that everything needs testing, and this is all beta, and I'm not really one to complain knowing that there are a lot of players out there that know a considerable amount more than me. I just like learning, hence the question asking.

 

[umk_p1]

I like the way ninja's teleports were changed, so scorp and hsmoke can't escape frome the corner and ermac can, but can't tp too much, that is sensible.
But i'm not sure if invisibility changes are very good. Hsmoke and reptile can no longer block when invisible so it makes them too vulnerable, especially to teleports, why would u even use invis from this point? what benefits u get when u r invisible? much better idea with time being expired, but it was applied only to robosmoke, who also got "noblock" change, which is now suicidal move... why would you go invis with robot? can any1 give me a situational example, so we can debate it more specifically? i admit that vanilla umk robosmoke is very good, probably in top 5 (1-kabal 2-hsmoke 3-ermac 4-nwolf 5-robosmoke) although no one pushed him to the limit, but now he sucks too bad... and that is not the only thing got nerfed, also his airthrow and spear and damage.... are you sure, guys? mb it is not too late to test it a bit more? on paper,at least, robo looks bad

 

[Juggs]

I like the way ninja's teleports were changed, so scorp and hsmoke can't escape frome the corner and ermac can, but can't tp too much, that is sensible.
But i'm not sure if invisibility changes are very good. Hsmoke and reptile can no longer block when invisible so it makes them too vulnerable, especially to teleports, why would u even use invis from this point? what benefits u get when u r invisible? much better idea with time being expired, but it was applied only to robosmoke, who also got "noblock" change, which is now suicidal move... why would you go invis with robot? can any1 give me a situational example, so we can debate it more specifically? i admit that vanilla umk robosmoke is very good, probably in top 5 (1-kabal 2-hsmoke 3-ermac 4-nwolf 5-robosmoke) although no one pushed him to the limit, but now he sucks too bad... and that is not the only things got nerfed, also his airthrow and spear and damage.... are you sure, guys? mb it is not too late to test it a bit more? on paper,at least, robo looks bad

Actually, I agree that Robot Smoke got nerfed too much. They should have only nerfed one aspect of the character, and that would have balanced him and brought him down to where he needed to be. Nerfing his airthrow, damage, spear, and his invisibility seems a bit excessive. I think the nerf to this invis is fine to an extent, but the nerf along with the others he received brings him down too much.

In Vanilla UMK3, you don't really care when R.Smoke goes invis, at least, you don't have to worry too much because of GJs. The problem is that if you don't have the life lead, you can't just stand there and GJ because you would lose, you'd have to attack. This is one of the reasons I believe the invis is too good, it has no time limit, you can set it up to get it for free, and you can block during it. The problem is, ALL THREE of those aspects were nerfed, instead of just one or two. Now, it has a time limit, you can't get it off of a spear, and you also can't block when it is active. With H.Smoke, you can still get the invis during a combo, so his is a lot better.

I would suggest one of these three:
1. Make the invis limited, but allow blocking while it's active.
2. Make the invis limited, disallow blocking, but enable getting the invis off of a spear.
3. Make the invis UNLIMITED, but disallow blocking or getting it off of a spear.

At the very least, #2 needs to happen. I for one would vote for #1 or #3 though.

 

[umk_p1]

Actually, I agree that Robot Smoke got nerfed too much. They should have only nerfed one aspect of the character, and that would have balanced him and brought him down to where he needed to be. Nerfing his airthrow, damage, spear, and his invisibility seems a bit excessive. I think the nerf to this invis is fine to an extent, but the nerf along with the others he received brings him down too much.

In Vanilla UMK3, you don't really care when R.Smoke goes invis, at least, you don't have to worry too much because of GJs. The problem is that if you don't have the life lead, you can't just stand there and GJ because you would lose, you'd have to attack. This is one of the reasons I believe the invis is too good, it has no time limit, you can set it up to get it for free, and you can block during it. The problem is, ALL THREE of those aspects were nerfed, instead of just one or two. Now, it has a time limit, you can't get it off of a spear, and you also can't block when it is active. With H.Smoke, you can still get the invis during a combo, so his is a lot better.

I would suggest one of these three:
1. Make the invis limited, but allow blocking while it's active.
2. Make the invis limited, disallow blocking, but enable getting the invis off of a spear.
3. Make the invis UNLIMITED, but disallow blocking or getting it off of a spear.

At the very least, #2 needs to happen. I for one would vote for #1 or #3 though.

i agree that baiting with invisibility opponents with life deficite is a big part of that move. So in umk3 both players can turtle if one goes invis, but still i have almost never seen timeouts because of that, so once again - invisibility is a good special, either u bait a risky move frome opponent or u jump over and throw him or cheap him out, not a single reason to not to go invis, it's too good.
From your list i'd pick #1(time limit), so when robo goes invis, opponent has a choice to turtle in block (10-15 seconds) or to make robosmoke to think that you gonna turtle so he gets in and then u do some risky but more rewarding(than before) stuff. I see this solution as most unbiased and balanced, still needs testing tho

 

[DWednesday]

Nerfing his airthrow, damage, spear, and his invisibility seems a bit excessive.

I didn't wanna say anything before, but now someone else has said it, this. SO MUCH THIS.

I would suggest one of these three:
1. Make the invis limited, but allow blocking while it's active.
2. Make the invis limited, disallow blocking, but enable getting the invis off of a spear.
3. Make the invis UNLIMITED, but disallow blocking or getting it off of a spear.

At the very least, #2 needs to happen. I for one would vote for #1 or #3 though.

I personally think that #2 is the best option you've listed here (when in conjunction with all of the other current changes)

 

[mkholic]

i'd like my invis time limited, with blocking allowed and no free off of a spear option, please

 

[9.95]

Ok, so after a small period of thinking, I had to say something about the nerf to teleporting out of the corner.

I think it's a great idea for all of us who like to play teleporting ninjas. It's a get out of jail free card.
I can't be baited into a huge punisher anymore.
If I'm cornered, all I have to do is let a lp hit me and it's a free pushback(yes, there's a mind game involved...it's a risk)
As a H.Smoke/Scorpion player, I'm not afraid to try and close the gap.

All in all, I think this "nerf" is a blessing in disguise, and only further hurts all the other characters. Gone are the days of successfully baiting teleporting ninjas into huge damage punishers. It was a skill and I'm sad to see it go.



My suggestion to fix it:
Allow ninjas to teleport through the corner WHEN and ONLY WHEN the opponent is holding block. This will still disallow attempted corner escapes via teleport, but will still allow successful baits. It's the best of both worlds.

1. If you bait me, I deserve to be punished.
2. If I see you blocking and I teleport anyway, I'm an idiot and I deserve to be punished
3. You baited me successfully and deserve the reward that comes from that skill.

 

[Juggs]

@9.95 You can still teleport through the sides of the screen. But, if your back is to the corner and the screen can no longer scroll that way, you can't teleport through it. So basically, you just can't get out of the corner with a teleport. Also, Ermac can still TP out of the corner regardless.

 

[tehdrewsus]

Ok, so after a small period of thinking, I had to say something about the nerf to teleporting out of the corner.

I think it's a great idea for all of us who like to play teleporting ninjas. It's a get out of jail free card.
I can't be baited into a huge punisher anymore.
If I'm cornered, all I have to do is let a lp hit me and it's a free pushback(yes, there's a mind game involved...it's a risk)
As a H.Smoke/Scorpion player, I'm not afraid to try and close the gap.

All in all, I think this "nerf" is a blessing in disguise, and only further hurts all the other characters. Gone are the days of successfully baiting teleporting ninjas into huge damage punishers. It was a skill and I'm sad to see it go.



My suggestion to fix it:
Allow ninjas to teleport through the corner WHEN and ONLY WHEN the opponent is holding block. This will still disallow attempted corner escapes via teleport, but will still allow successful baits. It's the best of both worlds.

1. If you bait me, I deserve to be punished.
2. If I see you blocking and I teleport anyway, I'm an idiot and I deserve to be punished
3. You baited me successfully and deserve the reward that comes from that skill.

I agree. The corner isn't near as advantageous to have an opponent in now. Especially if the guy in the corner is a ninja, one LP and he's out of there. AND, if he gets a knee lift combo, tp hp spear, he has a corner punisher setup. Almost seems counterproductive to put a teleporter in the corner now.

 

[9.95]

@9.95 You can still teleport through the sides of the screen. But, if your back is to the corner and the screen can no longer scroll that way, you can't teleport through it. So basically, you just can't get out of the corner with a teleport. Also, Ermac can still TP out of the corner regardless.

I know all of that. What I mean is, when your back is to the corner, H.Smoke and Scorpion can no longer be baited, which was (and IMO should still be) a skilled and valuable tactic against these characters. What I'm saying is, they should be allowed to teleport out of the corner, but ONLY when the opponent is blocking so that they can still be successfully baited into bat teleports.

 

[9.95]

I agree. The corner isn't near as advantageous to have an opponent in now. Especially if the guy in the corner is a ninja, one LP and he's out of there. AND, if he gets a knee lift combo, tp hp spear, he has a corner punisher setup. Almost seems counterproductive to put a teleporter in the corner now.

Well, yes and no. Now you have to guess. Is my opponent going to feint a LP in an attemp to get me to guess and release block(and successfully push them back) or will they run in and combo me. That's why it's a guess and why cornering them is still a good tactic. What I'm suggesting, however, puts them in a vulnerable position in the corner with no true escape unless they earn it.

 

[Juggs]

I know all of that. What I mean is, when your back is to the corner, H.Smoke and Scorpion can no longer be baited, which was (and IMO should still be) a skilled and valuable tactic against these characters. What I'm saying is, they should be allowed to teleport out of the corner, but ONLY when the opponent is blocking so that they can still be successfully baited into bat teleports.

Why make that change though? If you can only teleport when the opponent is blocking, why would you ever teleport? Also, if you teleport in the corner, you can still get punished for it, just not as bad as a full combo punisher.

 

[9.95]

Why make that change though? If you can only teleport when the opponent is blocking, why would you ever teleport? Also, if you teleport in the corner, you can still get punished for it, just not as bad as a full combo punisher.

Good point, but we know that blocking has inactive frames(like when you can be frozen going into or out of your block animation). During the block, if you can teleport, and timed correctly, you can still hit on recovery frames but this would take serious skill and guesswork to do, as well as allow baits, plus keep you locked down in the corner when the opponent isn't blocking.

 

[Juggs]

Good point, but we know that blocking has inactive frames(like when you can be frozen going into or out of your block animation). During the block, if you can teleport, and timed correctly, you can still hit on recovery frames but this would take serious skill and guesswork to do, as well as allow baits, plus keep you locked down in the corner when the opponent isn't blocking.

Did you know that if you tap block, and don't hold it, it doesn't really count as a block? It just does the animation, but you don't even really block. I never knew that before, lol.

The blocking without GJs or KJs is pretty bad to be honest. I would suggest less block stun, and being able to block by tapping block instead of holding it.

 

[9.95]

Did you know that if you tap block, and don't hold it, it doesn't really count as a block? It just does the animation, but you don't even really block. I never knew that before, lol.

The blocking without GJs or KJs is pretty bad to be honest. I would suggest less block stun, and being able to block by tapping block instead of holding it.

Tapping block to actually enter block (increasing active frames from the start of the block animation) actually only helps my argument. Then you could literally tap block to bait instead of backing up and holding it.

 

[dubson]

Ok, so after a small period of thinking, I had to say something about the nerf to teleporting out of the corner.

I think it's a great idea for all of us who like to play teleporting ninjas. It's a get out of jail free card.
I can't be baited into a huge punisher anymore.
If I'm cornered, all I have to do is let a lp hit me and it's a free pushback(yes, there's a mind game involved...it's a risk)
As a H.Smoke/Scorpion player, I'm not afraid to try and close the gap.

All in all, I think this "nerf" is a blessing in disguise, and only further hurts all the other characters. Gone are the days of successfully baiting teleporting ninjas into huge damage punishers. It was a skill and I'm sad to see it go.



My suggestion to fix it:
Allow ninjas to teleport through the corner WHEN and ONLY WHEN the opponent is holding block. This will still disallow attempted corner escapes via teleport, but will still allow successful baits. It's the best of both worlds.

1. If you bait me, I deserve to be punished.
2. If I see you blocking and I teleport anyway, I'm an idiot and I deserve to be punished
3. You baited me successfully and deserve the reward that comes from that skill.

Great points, but let's consider how much stronger, inversely, it makes H smoke. Now that he can't be baited to Death (almost literally) As Much, one's footsie games must be that more on point, making him in turn slightly stronger now in the aspect that he won't be willing to use his teleport so recklessly? (near corner and fear)

 

[mkholic]

Did you know that if you tap block, and don't hold it, it doesn't really count as a block? It just does the animation, but you don't even really block. I never knew that before, lol.

what makes u think so?how does one check if it's accurate?

 

[9.95]

Great points, but let's consider how much stronger, inversely, it makes H smoke. Now that he can't be baited to Death (almost literally) As Much, one's footsie games must be that more on point, making him in turn slightly stronger now in the aspect that he won't be willing to use his teleport so recklessly? (near corner and fear)

This is what I don't like. Now by default, H.Smoke and the New Scorpion become that much scarier because just like in vanilla UMK3, they still have to close the gap anyway, now they can do it without fear of being baited from the corner. That's why I'm saying that they should be allowed to teleport from the corner but only when the opponent is blocking. It's a middle ground.

 

[dubson]

This is what I don't like. Now by default, H.Smoke and the New Scorpion become that much scarier because just like in vanilla UMK3, they still have to close the gap anyway, now they can do it without fear of being baited from the corner. That's why I'm saying that they should be allowed to teleport from the corner but only when the opponent is blocking. It's a middle ground.

I'm going to have to completely agree. In Vanilla UMK3, it Almost hurt them more than it helped them. It was an Extremely Fine line. But, it was high risk high reward, which is fine. It helped them in their offense, allowing them to use the teleport to close distance extremely well and set-up frame traps, etc. But I ultimately feel it led to their Death MORE than it led to Victory, as a tactic in itself.

It may or may not be right with Scorpion and his new changes, but H Smoke is a very very deadly character and must be dealt with extremely carefully. While this is considered a "nerf" it will lead to H Smoke killing himself less as well. Inherently based on his design, any minor switch without even knowing could make him more deadlier just on accident. Which is just why I don't like the character at all in UMK3… he is like Akuma to SF2… get him out or make him someone else (Not just all the best traits of random characters thrown into one, but unique and not broken by design)

 

[9.95]

I'm going to have to completely agree. In Vanilla UMK3, it Almost hurt them more than it helped them. It was an Extremely Fine line. But, it was high risk high reward, which is fine. It helped them in their offense, allowing them to use the teleport to close distance extremely well and set-up frame traps, etc. But I ultimately feel it led to their Death MORE than it led to Victory, as a tactic in itself.

It may or may not be right with Scorpion and his new changes, but H Smoke is a very very deadly character and must be dealt with extremely carefully. While this is considered a "nerf" it will lead to H Smoke killing himself less as well. Inherently based on his design, any minor switch without even knowing could make him more deadlier just on accident. Which is just why I don't like the character at all in UMK3… he is like Akuma to SF2… get him out or make him someone else (Not just all the best traits of random characters thrown into one, but unique and not broken by design)

To be fair, in UMK3, that's arguably Kabal, not Smoke.

Anyway, I think his damage nerfs are huge, he barely breaks 33% with his old BnB. This alone makes New Scorpion better than him as N.Scorp now gets over 40% off a JP starter.

 

[dubson]

To be fair, in UMK3, that's arguably Kabal, not Smoke.

Anyway, I think his damage nerfs are huge, he barely breaks 33% with his old BnB. This alone makes New Scorpion better than him as N.Scorp now gets over 40% off a JP starter.

Bro, yes it is Kabal. But it is H Smoke as well. I know you like H Smoke a lot and he is probably your fav character, but he is just as broken as Kabal.

Kabal may slightly edge him, but not by much at all. So statements like this are implying that Kabal is much more broken than H Smoke and that is completely wrong. They are both in the Same tier, Above everyone else.

Yes Kabal is the best but H Smoke is right next to him. So all these people that defend H Smoke and go oh no, Kabal is way more broken.

Your talking to a guy who has seen H Smoke win more tournaments than Kabal, or any other character. Fastest walk speed, 50% combos off of roundhouse, punishers, anything. Let's please stop with this. Im not saying he is better than Kabal, I never have, I feel like your inversely implying I am saying or believing that.

They are both a HUGE problem.

Let's be honest, Kabal is much easier to fix than H Smoke. Kabal can be made Not Broken and viable easier of the two. Tt is a much much harder task with H Smoke. Inherently based on his design as is, this is my point as well.

 

[dubson]

To be fair, in UMK3, that's arguably Kabal, not Smoke.

Anyway, I think his damage nerfs are huge, he barely breaks 33% with his old BnB. This alone makes New Scorpion better than him as N.Scorp now gets over 40% off a JP starter.

Sorry, but a higher damage combo off a jump starter is not alone what is going to make him better than a character like H Smoke. Otherwise, Jax or Sheeva would be the best character in UMK3, alone based off of that. Doesn't work like that at all...