Question How is Nightwing bad in the current meta?

[AssassiN]

+18 > +14
+21 > +8 / +4 /+2

Good thing you got a basic understanding of math, but did you even bother to go into training mode to see what NW can do after his + frames?
I'm guessing that the +21 refers to 112, that string has a hole between 1 and 2 while the first hit is a high.

 

[Youphemism]

Good thing you got a basic understanding of math, but did you even bother to go into training mode to see what NW can do after his + frames?
I'm guessing that the +21 refers to 112, that string has a hole between 1 and 2 while the first hit is a high.

Not yet, but I've played against several Nightwings and I'm pretty sure 21 frames of blockstun doesn't leave the opponent much room to interrupt what's coming next. Does Nightwing have any lows in Escrima?

 

[AssassiN]

Not yet, but I've played against several Nightwings and I'm pretty sure 21 frames of blockstun doesn't leave the opponent much room to interrupt what's coming next. Does Nightwing have any lows in Escrima?

Just his sweep, spark and B13.
You play BG, right? The second hit of 112 whiffs on her if you are holding back, if you are holding down the second and third hit whiff entirely and you can punish NW for using 112.

 

[Sajam]

I don't know why I didn't guess he knew absolutely nothing about NW before complaining about his plus frames.

I lost.

 

[HeroesNZ]

+18 > +14
+21 > +8 / +4 /+2

Wow, you're right... I've never realised this before... 18 is greater than 14!!?
So that must mean Nightwing has better frame-traps than WoWo... right?

 

[TakeAChance]

112 = Starter is a true high, last hit is back dashable

+21, guarantees 33 mixup shenanigans...that's pretty much it other than a b2 check. 112 cannot be looped.

Wonder Woman's blockstring pressure and staggers are much more terrifying since she has a low, mid, medium, and air dash to control your options.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Wowo has direct 50/50 frame traps that lead to massive damage. NW all push you away...even on hit.

On block everything NW does pushes you away and that is stupid

 

[LEGEND]

He also said GA could be one of the best zoners in the game.

Theo is a wacky guy.

Quoted cause. . .ya, that happened

i think the phrase "secret top 5" was used at some point lol

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Quoted cause. . .ya, that happened

i think the phrase "secret top 5" was used at some point lol

I think he just likes toying with people and their low tier dreams.

 

[LEGEND]

I think he just likes toying with people and their low tier dreams.

i can assure you he was serious

not that he thinks this anymore though, he just had some really incorrect ideas about the character without ever properly testing them out

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

He also said GA could be one of the best zoners in the game.

Theo is a wacky guy.

The best zoner*

I totally thought Paulo fucked up by giving him fire arrows.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

The best zoner*

I totally thought Paulo fucked up by giving him fire arrows.

hold up...i want to know about your NW trolling not fucking GA

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

+18 > +14
+21 > +8 / +4 /+2

I think you're failing to understand that wowo simply has better pressure. Due to the fact, her normals don't push back (much) on block. She also has a high/low game which nightwing lacks in.

Wowo pressure normally leads into a mixup into 40% meterless damage into another mixup or otg.

NW pressure can lead to maybe 40%, but normally mid-30%s w a bar spent into decent Oki. 112 is a high on first hit and has major pushback, his only guaranteed follow up is b2 or 33 which don't really present strong mix ups.. just more pressure lol.

U get it tho? Wowo always will have a high low game that nightwing simply lacks. And don't say staff is hard to block, its simple if you practice.

Also, if you have a problem blocking flip kick, its prolly just online. flip kick is good offline, but it isn't NEARLY as good as it is online.

 

[Youphemism]

I think you're failing to understand that wowo simply has better pressure. Due to the fact, her normals don't push back (much) on block. She also has a high/low game which nightwing lacks in.

Wowo pressure normally leads into a mixup into 40% meterless damage into another mixup or otg.

NW pressure can lead to maybe 40%, but normally mid-30%s w a bar spent into decent Oki. 112 is a high on first hit and has major pushback, his only guaranteed follow up is b2 or 33 which don't really present strong mix ups.. just more pressure lol.

U get it tho? Wowo always will have a high low game that nightwing simply lacks. And don't say staff is hard to block, its simple if you practice.

Also, if you have a problem blocking flip kick, its prolly just online. flip kick is good offline, but it isn't NEARLY as good as it is online.

WoWo's pressure has holes in it though, as in backdashable holes. You can't backdash a follow up to something that's +18 or +21 on block. Yes I know Wonder Woman has good pressure but if you know the holes in it you'll see it isn't the best.

How much chip does staff spin do though? And how much meter does it give you back? You have a constant pressure tool for about 5/6 whole seconds or something like that, WoWo has maybe 2/3 seconds max before you can just backdash or check her out of it. Nightwing's b2 is pretty fast and as you say it leads in to more pressure, which could include cancelling into trait into staff spin.

I can BLOCK staff all day, but getting away from it is a problem as is getting my own pressure started. I'm not saying WoWo sucks or anything like that I'm just saying Nightwing has more plus frames to work with most of the time.

Yeah flip kick just crossing up all the time catches me out a lot, I don't have much NW exp either besides spending a bit of time in practice skimming the frame data and from having played a few of the good Nightwings on here (including you) but if I just know when flip kick tends to cross up I should be fine lol

 

[HeroesNZ]

WoWo's pressure has holes in it though, as in backdashable holes. You can't backdash a follow up to something that's +18 or +21 on block. Yes I know Wonder Woman has good pressure but if you know the holes in it you'll see it isn't the best.

How much chip does staff spin do though? And how much meter does it give you back? You have a constant pressure tool for about 5/6 whole seconds or something like that, WoWo has maybe 2/3 seconds max before you can just backdash or check her out of it. Nightwing's b2 is pretty fast and as you say it leads in to more pressure, which could include cancelling into trait into staff spin.

I can BLOCK staff all day, but getting away from it is a problem as is getting my own pressure started. I'm not saying WoWo sucks or anything like that I'm just saying Nightwing has more plus frames to work with most of the time.

Yeah flip kick just crossing up all the time catches me out a lot, I don't have much NW exp either besides spending a bit of time in practice skimming the frame data and from having played a few of the good Nightwings on here (including you) but if I just know when flip kick tends to cross up I should be fine lol

Wonder Woman has better frame-traps than Nightwing. Fact. Nightwing's 112 is backdashable and starts high. The only things he gets after MB staff spin is a standing 1 or a jump, and you can backdash any follow-up after MB ground pound. In escrima, any frame-trap will probably end in Flipkick or MB Flipkick after which you can either poke or backdash. Finally, Nightwing's frame-traps don't lead into 50/50s, OTGs and 40% meterless damage. Nightwing may have more frame-traps, but they aren't by any means better.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

I read where someone posted that lex is a bad mu for NW smh. For the downplayers, NW really only has 8 exact bad mus with cyborg being the worse, and lex is definitely NOT a bad mu.

 

[Shaazzyam]

Yeah... nobody should try arguing with the guy who thinks Batgirl's 50-50s are reactable

He lives in a different world than everybody else

 

[HeroesNZ]

I read where someone posted that lex is a bad mu for NW smh. For the downplayers, NW really only has 8 exact bad mus with cyborg being the worse, and lex is definitely NOT a bad mu.

There's no way in hell Lex is a bad MU. If it's in anyone's favour it's Nightwing's. I'd say BA, Cyborg, GL, HG, Sinestro, SM, Zatanna and Zod are all definite bad MUs with KF being up to debate

 

[Youphemism]

Yeah... nobody should try arguing with the guy who thinks Batgirl's 50-50s are reactable

He lives in a different world than everybody else

Oh give it a rest, we're talking about Nightwing.

 

[AssassiN]

WoWo's pressure has holes in it though, as in backdashable holes. You can't backdash a follow up to something that's +18 or +21 on block. Yes I know Wonder Woman has good pressure but if you know the holes in it you'll see it isn't the best.

How much chip does staff spin do though? And how much meter does it give you back? You have a constant pressure tool for about 5/6 whole seconds or something like that, WoWo has maybe 2/3 seconds max before you can just backdash or check her out of it. Nightwing's b2 is pretty fast and as you say it leads in to more pressure, which could include cancelling into trait into staff spin.

I can BLOCK staff all day, but getting away from it is a problem as is getting my own pressure started. I'm not saying WoWo sucks or anything like that I'm just saying Nightwing has more plus frames to work with most of the time.

Yeah flip kick just crossing up all the time catches me out a lot, I don't have much NW exp either besides spending a bit of time in practice skimming the frame data and from having played a few of the good Nightwings on here (including you) but if I just know when flip kick tends to cross up I should be fine lol

For the love of god, go into training mode and see what NW can do after those + frames.

You complain about holes and being able to backdash stuff.
Did you forget how godlike WW's B2 is? NW can only punish backdashes in Escrima if the opponent was right next to him.
B2~Trait~Staff Spin has such a huge hole that it can interrupted and punished.
The only "pressure" NW has with B2 is either cancel it into flipkick or not, even canceling it into flipkick is not a viable option against some characters.

His options are very limited after those + frames, just because you have to block a little longer against him doesn't mean his pressure is godlike.
There is too much pushback, he has an extra option when the opponent blocks the last hit of Staff Spin MB low(except for Catwoman).
His Staff Spin does like guaranteed 7% of chip that cannot be pushblocked.

There is no way that you can convince anyone that NW's frametraps/pressure is better than WW's.

 

[Youphemism]

For the love of god, go into training mode and see what NW can do after those + frames.

You complain about holes and being able to backdash stuff.
Did you forget how godlike WW's B2 is? NW can only punish backdashes in Escrima if the opponent was right next to him.
B2~Trait~Staff Spin has such a huge hole that it can interrupted and punished.
The only "pressure" NW has with B2 is either cancel it into flipkick or not, even canceling it into flipkick is not a viable option against some characters.

His options are very limited after those + frames, just because you have to block a little longer against him doesn't mean his pressure is godlike.
There is too much pushback, he has an extra option when the opponent blocks the last hit of Staff Spin MB low(except for Catwoman).
His Staff Spin does like guaranteed 7% of chip that cannot be pushblocked.

There is no way that you can convince anyone that NW's frametraps/pressure is better than WW's.

I'm not complaining, don't assume that.
Godlike? Yes it's 12 frames but it's still -5. I'm pretty sure you can wingding to catch backdashes also.
Fine, I didn't know that as I'm not a NW main.
Then don't always cancel it into that. If you only do b2~flipkick then the opponents going to know to block the other way, so mix it up with other things.

He still has options though, that's what I'm saying. I never said his pressure was "godlike", don't put words in my mouth.
Too much pushback for a d1? Which is +3 and can be trait cancelled into something or cancelled into a special?
Exactly! How is max 35% unpushblockable chip not good?

Again quit assuming I'm saying things, I never said hers was worse. I'm just saying you're downplaying his and upplaying hers SLIGHTLY

 

[AssassiN]

I'm not complaining, don't assume that.
Godlike? Yes it's 12 frames but it's still -5. I'm pretty sure you can wingding to catch backdashes also.
Fine, I didn't know that as I'm not a NW main.
Then don't always cancel it into that. If you only do b2~flipkick then the opponents going to know to block the other way, so mix it up with other things.

He still has options though, that's what I'm saying. I never said his pressure was "godlike", don't put words in my mouth.
Too much pushback for a d1? Which is +3 and can be trait cancelled into something or cancelled into a special?
Exactly! How is max 35% unpushblockable chip not good?

Again quit assuming I'm saying things, I never said hers was worse. I'm just saying you're downplaying his and upplaying hers SLIGHTLY

You know there are more things to pressure than just frame-data, right?
The range on her B2 is good to catch backdashes + she has an instant air dash.
NW's B2 doesn't really offer an opportunity for mix-ups, it's actually dangerous to use B2~flipkick against people who know how to blow up flipkick because it barely has priority.
FYI: the last hit of Staff Spin is pushblockable. It just isn't worth it against a regular Staff Spin because the damage has already been done and NW is at negative frames.

Too much pushback for a d1? Which is +3 and can be trait cancelled into something or cancelled into a special?

This is my last post to you because clearly you are just heavily theory-fighting without actually going into training mode and seeing what NW is all about.

 

[Youphemism]

You know there are more things to pressure than just frame-data, right?
The range on her B2 is good to catch backdashes + she has an instant air dash.
NW's B2 doesn't really offer an opportunity for mix-ups, it's actually dangerous to use B2~flipkick against people who know how to blow up flipkick because it barely has priority.
FYI: the last hit of Staff Spin is pushblockable. It just isn't worth it against a regular Staff Spin because the damage has already been done and NW is at negative frames.



This is my last post to you because clearly you are just heavily theory-fighting without actually going into training mode and seeing what NW is all about.

Well duh, but I'm just saying you make it sound like it's this amazing tool. I know it's good for catching backdashes, the solution is to not backdash so much.
Which is why you don't always do b2~flipkick... *facepalms* are you forgetting about the fact your own character can cancel into specials other than flipkick? It's called mixing it up.
Fair enough, but why would you leave yourself at negative frames if you have meter? If I don't pushblock the MB you're still at +18 so the advantage is yours there and if I do we're both down a bar but you've done 7%.

I'm pretty sure the whole point is theory fighting, we're on a website talking about a character based on their tools/frame data. I have been into practice with NW too, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that a while back. Ignore me all you want, but you're the one saying he doesn't have any options while never backing it up...

 

[BigMilk]

Well duh, but I'm just saying you make it sound like it's this amazing tool. I know it's good for catching backdashes, the solution is to not backdash so much.
Which is why you don't always do b2~flipkick... *facepalms* are you forgetting about the fact your own character can cancel into specials other than flipkick? It's called mixing it up.
Fair enough, but why would you leave yourself at negative frames if you have meter? If I don't pushblock the MB you're still at +18 so the advantage is yours there and if I do we're both down a bar but you've done 7%.

I'm pretty sure the whole point is theory fighting, we're on a website talking about a character based on their tools/frame data. I have been into practice with NW too, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that a while back. Ignore me all you want, but you're the one saying he doesn't have any options while never backing it up...

I think you are missing the point here. You are the only one theory fighting but everyone else here is speaking from exp abd what they know works since they main the character. You are also saying that all of the NW players are predictable and don't understand their options. You make a big deal out of MB staff spin but it is easily in your favor even if you take 7%. And you essentially have the same move with shield bash but you can delay which adds the meta making it harder to pushblock/punish. You really don't understand NW options better than the NW players but you are speaking as if you do and everyone else is doing something wrong....

 

[Youphemism]

I think you are missing the point here. You are the only one theory fighting but everyone else here is speaking from exp abd what they know works since they main the character. You are also saying that all of the NW players are predictable and don't understand their options. You make a big deal out of MB staff spin but it is easily in your favor even if you take 7%. And you essentially have the same move with shield bash but you can delay which adds the meta making it harder to pushblock/punish. You really don't understand NW options better than the NW players but you are speaking as if you do and everyone else is doing something wrong....

I never said they were predictable or didn't understand their options (what is it with everyone saying that I said something I didn't say?)
How is me getting 7% chip and you getting free pressure/18 more frames to do something before me in my favour?
That's true, I do have mb shield bash and it too is plus and it gives me the opportunity to delay it. Difference is, I don't build enough meter after four of them for a 5th one and I don't do 7% chip each time lol
Well I never said I knew NW better, of course I don't, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that NW has a hell of a lot of plus frames to work with and options you guys don't seem to take notice of when talking about him for some reason. If you actually talked about the flaws in his options then maybe I'd be like "fine, fair enough" but all you're doing is saying "oh he has no options though" or "his options suck" or something along the lines of that. Do you see where I'm having trouble believing you guys? I'm going on facts here, based on the in-game frame data, and from having spent a little time in practice with him myself. That's all