Is MMH, in his current form, fair?

[Killphil]

I hate when people try to talk down Injustice players in fundamentals, and then go about listing "crossup shenanigans" as a talking point against the game.

That's a sign some of you need to play more of other fighters in general, because if "crossup shenanigans" is a problem in a 2D fighting game, then you must either play only 3D fighters or Mortal Kombat.

Remind me again of a 2D fighter where you can block a cross up and they land in front of you?

 

[THTB]

Remind me again of a 2D fighter where you can block a cross up and they land in front of you?

Street Fighter 4.

 

[Killphil]

Street Fighter 4.

Well shit! So much for my smartass remark. I've played SFIV a ton too. I guess I didn't eventhubs it up enough. lol

 

[RM AtK!]

I hate when people try to talk down Injustice players in fundamentals, and then go about listing "crossup shenanigans" as a talking point against the game.

That's a sign some of you need to play more of other fighters in general, because if "crossup shenanigans" is a problem in a 2D fighting game, then you must either play only 3D fighters or Mortal Kombat.

the crosssup shennanigans im refferring to is the corner crap. and no theres no other fighting game quite like that. only thing i can think of is some supers crossup in marvel, but theres really no footsies in marvel and the games designed to be rediculous anyway + its fun ..

 

[RM AtK!]

Reptile didn't because he was slow up close anyway, and put a huge chunk of risk into dealing with Kabal's pressure anyway. He couldn't just d1 or d3 because they were so slow.

Sektor's strong points were null simply due to IAGB and NDC.

and sektor's only real weakness in the matchup was Saw not iagb

 

[Zoidberg747]

Kang/kabal is a 5-5 and yes ive played it amongst great kabals to know

Mygod disagreed, and he was arguably the 2nd best Kang aside from Xblades. Pretty sure Xblades said it wasnt even too.

Edit: I forgot about MIT, he was up there as well. He said it wasnt even also.

 

[Shaazzyam]

What tilts it in Martian's favor is the fact that Martian gets to do whatever he pleases after he gets a knockdown. Also orbs make playing neutral very hard for Raven since she can't do soulcrush while under one.

So would it be fair to say a hard 6-4 MMH on a power character stage?

@SaltShaker

 

[Glass Sword]

So would it be fair to say a hard 6-4 MMH on a power character stage?

Yeah it's not at the level of a 3-7.

 

[SaltShaker]

So would it be fair to say a hard 6-4 MMH on a power character stage?

@SaltShaker

Realistically I can come to terms with a hard 4-6 on a power stage and an easier 4-6 on a light stage. I don't think it's ever 5-5 because it doesn't feel even like say Raven/Zod does, but it's a very winnable 4-6 on lighter stages and a very hard and mistake-less 4-6 on power heavy stages.

I've thought about it overnight and comparing it to when I've played Max and other good Banes which i think is her only true 3-7 (i don't think Grundy is) it doesn't feel like that MU. I'll say 4-6 at the worst right now.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

Is it just me or is this poll basically saying if your character loses to MMH then MMH is unfair?

He's fair because you can use him if you feel like it. I don't believe "unfair" can exist in a game like this unless it's player 1 advantage or some ish.

 

[SaltShaker]

Yeah. That's a big point. It's pointless to complain about this stuff, but there does seem to be a threshold in competitive games.

SF4's threshold seems to be that they won't allow the creation of a character who has a dragon punch, teleport, a slide/moving low attack, wall dive, and a projectile. You can have a projectile and a slide/moving low attack, but you can't have a dp. They gave Seth a dp, and a projectile, but no slide/moving low(I don't really count his arms or tanden engine). Akuma has no slide/moving low either, and Cammy has a spiral arrow, and a dp, but no projectile. Hakan has slide/moving low, but no dp, and no projectile. Zangief has no projectile, no slide/moving low, and no projectile. Sagat seems the closest to breaking the threshold with his dp, projectile, and low tiger, but he has a slow walk speed.

Characters that would seem to be game breaking would be:
Ibuki with a fireball
Dhalsim with a dp
Ryu with slide
Bison with his fireball(I know he has a fb, just not in SF4) and a dp
Cammy with a fireball
Viper with a fireball
Vega with a fireball
Zangief with a fireball
T.Hawk with a gun

I can't really speak for modern NRS games, but the issues that cause their old games to have "balance" issues center around walkspeed/retreat walkspeed, projectile speed/properties, and tool allocation(giving too much) and not allowing enough defensive options.

Fair vs Unfair is not really a good question. Competition in general isn't fair: someone will win and others will lose. The question is what is reasonable for some characters to have and what isn't(threshold). A character like Kabal is right at the NRS threshold imo because the only move he doesn't have is a NRS style vertical/horizontal opposite teleport. MMH has a teleport, but does he also have a low projectile?

Kabal is close to a perfect character design(swiss army knife character/master key character is what I call them) for a 2d NRS/Midway style game imo, outside of a design that just wins on damage and reset potential. You don't want to create a perfect character because that would defeat the purpose of the game. For example, the queen can move in any direction in chess except the "L" shape of the knight, but she has no way to mate the king by herself(she needs help). Similarly, you don't want to design characters that can cover nearly all situations or every situation.

Barring infinites or T.O.D combos/resets, NRS/midway threshold seems to be a character with:
projectile, mid air projectile, low projectile/slide, vertical/horizontal opposite teleport, an overhead, an unblockable full screen projectile, full screen dash, and a move that cancels on block/hit.

Kabal has 6/8 of those attacks.
SF4 characters seem to have 2/5, 1/5 or 0/5 of their threshold attacks.

Very interesting. I've always taken note of that when it comes to tools but never thought of it to that level. You're right though. Kabal may have been worse. Also, I couldn't imagine having to face a Cammy or Viper with a fireball, or Dhalsim with a DP. It'd be too much.

 

[RM AtK!]

Yeah. That's a big point. It's pointless to complain about this stuff, but there does seem to be a threshold in competitive games.

SF4's threshold seems to be that they won't allow the creation of a character who has a dragon punch, teleport, a slide/moving low attack, wall dive, and a projectile. You can have a projectile and a slide/moving low attack, but you can't have a dp. They gave Seth a dp, and a projectile, but no slide/moving low(I don't really count his arms or tanden engine). Akuma has no slide/moving low either, and Cammy has a spiral arrow, and a dp, but no projectile. Hakan has slide/moving low, but no dp, and no projectile. Zangief has no projectile, no slide/moving low, and no projectile. Sagat seems the closest to breaking the threshold with his dp, projectile, and low tiger, but he has a slow walk speed.

Characters that would seem to be game breaking would be:
Ibuki with a fireball
Dhalsim with a dp
Ryu with slide
Bison with his fireball(I know he has a fb, just not in SF4) and a dp
Cammy with a fireball
Viper with a fireball
Vega with a fireball
Zangief with a fireball
T.Hawk with a gun

I can't really speak for modern NRS games, but the issues that cause their old games to have "balance" issues center around walkspeed/retreat walkspeed, projectile speed/properties, and tool allocation(giving too much) and not allowing enough defensive options.

Fair vs Unfair is not really a good question. Competition in general isn't fair: someone will win and others will lose. The question is what is reasonable for some characters to have and what isn't(threshold). A character like Kabal is right at the NRS threshold imo because the only move he doesn't have is a NRS style vertical/horizontal opposite teleport. MMH has a teleport, but does he also have a low projectile?

Kabal is close to a perfect character design(swiss army knife character/master key character is what I call them) for a 2d NRS/Midway style game imo, outside of a design that just wins on damage and reset potential. You don't want to create a perfect character because that would defeat the purpose of the game. For example, the queen can move in any direction in chess except the "L" shape of the knight, but she has no way to mate the king by herself(she needs help). Similarly, you don't want to design characters that can cover nearly all situations or every situation.

Barring infinites or T.O.D combos/resets, NRS/midway threshold seems to be a character with:
projectile, mid air projectile, low projectile/slide, vertical/horizontal opposite teleport, an overhead, an unblockable full screen projectile, full screen dash, and a move that cancels on block/hit.

Kabal has 6/8 of those attacks.
SF4 characters seem to have 2/5, 1/5 or 0/5 of their threshold attacks.

good observations and i agree with most of it too. i also think sonya has too many tools and cyrax - sonya has a military stance with a 50/50 thats safe along with a launcher and a few others.. a d4 that goes half screen that cancels from the military stance and spaces you out so they cant do much about it, a rediculous auto correcting dive kick thats fast as almost everyone standing 1/2 (faster on wakeup) / an anti airing special / reset special, an air grab, a pretty good projectile with fast recovery, hyperarmor, good dash /backdash / walkspeeds, an arch kick that flys fullscreen to close distance or anti air ppl, the fastest uppercut in the game (7 frames). i mean realistically she has more then kabal does.

and cyrax has a rediculous ammount of tools as well including 50-60% unbreakable resets and a meter draining net / breaker traps / command grab/ air grabs

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Yeah. That's a big point. It's pointless to complain about this stuff, but there does seem to be a threshold in competitive games.

SF4's threshold seems to be that they won't allow the creation of a character who has a dragon punch, teleport, a slide/moving low attack, wall dive, and a projectile. You can have a projectile and a slide/moving low attack, but you can't have a dp. They gave Seth a dp, and a projectile, but no slide/moving low(I don't really count his arms or tanden engine). Akuma has no slide/moving low either, and Cammy has a spiral arrow, and a dp, but no projectile. Hakan has slide/moving low, but no dp, and no projectile. Zangief has no projectile, no slide/moving low, and no projectile. Sagat seems the closest to breaking the threshold with his dp, projectile, and low tiger, but he has a slow walk speed.

Characters that would seem to be game breaking would be:
Ibuki with a fireball
Dhalsim with a dp
Ryu with slide
Bison with his fireball(I know he has a fb, just not in SF4) and a dp
Cammy with a fireball
Viper with a fireball
Vega with a fireball
Zangief with a fireball
T.Hawk with a gun

I can't really speak for modern NRS games, but the issues that cause their old games to have "balance" issues center around walkspeed/retreat walkspeed, projectile speed/properties, and tool allocation(giving too much) and not allowing enough defensive options.

Fair vs Unfair is not really a good question. Competition in general isn't fair: someone will win and others will lose. The question is what is reasonable for some characters to have and what isn't(threshold). A character like Kabal is right at the NRS threshold imo because the only move he doesn't have is a NRS style vertical/horizontal opposite teleport. MMH has a teleport, but does he also have a low projectile?

Kabal is close to a perfect character design(swiss army knife character/master key character is what I call them) for a 2d NRS/Midway style game imo, outside of a design that just wins on damage and reset potential. You don't want to create a perfect character because that would defeat the purpose of the game. For example, the queen can move in any direction in chess except the "L" shape of the knight, but she has no way to mate the king by herself(she needs help). Similarly, you don't want to design characters that can cover nearly all situations or every situation.

Barring infinites or T.O.D combos/resets, NRS/midway threshold seems to be a character with:
projectile, mid air projectile, low projectile/slide, vertical/horizontal opposite teleport, an overhead, an unblockable full screen projectile, full screen dash, and a move that cancels on block/hit.

Kabal has 6/8 of those attacks.
SF4 characters seem to have 2/5, 1/5 or 0/5 of their threshold attacks.

This is what I've been saying, except you break it down soo much better. Everyone tries to shit at me cuz I didn't sign up for TYM during MK9 tenure. I've played vanilla marvel since release up til this point of umvc3 and I still don't have reddit or SRK account, doesn't mean my opinion isn't credible.

Kabal wins every match up, that isn't argued. In the same breathe, he doesnt totally SHIT on every character either. Just the fact he doesnt lose or cut even with ANYONE tho is unfair. From what ive read, watched and studied, the general consensus agrees with this. This means the character is UNFAIR in every sense of the word.

MMH doesn't fit this category, there are characters you can play to cut even with him. There's a few characters who arguably MAY beat him.

Anyway, rant done. Shit on me, oh great mk9 gods with your awesome, alive, glitch free, totally balanced game. I was wrong to believe everyones opinion mattered and not only "OGs" lol

 

[THTB]

the crosssup shennanigans im refferring to is the corner crap. and no theres no other fighting game quite like that. only thing i can think of is some supers crossup in marvel, but theres really no footsies in marvel and the games designed to be rediculous anyway + its fun ..

Street Fighter 4.

Pretty sure they exist in previous SF games as well. And I believe SFxT has the same things, just it's not as prominent due to roll.

 

[FAT-BOY-28-SACK]

Yes. Main:joker #trolling

 

[Zatoichi]

He's not that fair.

MMH
Green Arrow
Bane
Lobo
Zod

For now, MMH just needs his Overhead Teleport to be changed to a MB version of his regular teleport or make it scale damage worse than his regular teleport.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

No... Shazam...