Match-up Discussion Nightwing Match-Up Discussion (1.06 and on)

[Chongo]

A talking point that no ones seemed to mention is that none of Joker's mids whiff on NW, so we can't duck and punish like most of the cast.

Your theory is a match is 6-4 because an opponent can't anti air Joker? That's hilarious.

He said the situation is favorable, not the match itself



If Sajam can anti air Batman's J2 with NW's 12 frame D2, you shouldn't be struggling to anti air a yolo jump in Joker.
J3 has an extended hitbox, Batman's does not.
I rather see another NW play the set than a NW with bad habits that Qwark downloaded a long time ago. We don't need to see putty patrol, We need the Power Rangers.
Assassin is very good, don't discredit him.

 

[Qwark28]

1. Only a few frametraps? He just needs 2. I know he has more but Joker has respectable blockstrings and that was my point. What are you disagreeing about?
-Theres many ways to punish Nightwing's wake ups, teeth can be one of them and I've done it on NW's playing around with Joker, you don't have to act like theres a secret ingredient to it.

2. You could try to beat ground sparks, but Joker's bang is as readable and they can be done after dunking Joker's bang, after that; NW controls zoning. Letting Joker shoot first isn't a problem at all. Anyone who gets hit by it just made a poor read.

3. I stated Joker can check wingdings in a punishable range, not just anywhere. Once again, you're disagreeing about nothing.

3. NW can keep Joker in check with his NJ2 or JB 2 in staff. If timed right, D2 can keep Joker from doing his jump over J2 after D1. NW has options to keep Joker away, you either aren't facing anyone using them or you're lag switch is godlike. Your theory is a match is 6-4 because an opponent can't anti air Joker? That's hilarious.





If you're getting beat by raw jump ins from Joker, then that's a personal problem. Not a Nightwing problem.
You're waking up against Joker? No wonder why you're getting bodied. Joker blows up everything Nightwing has.

So I NEED to wake up against Joker is what you're saying?

So explain now:

Escrima Fury
Flip Kick
Staff Spin
Flying Grayson

How do these wake ups benefit Nightwing in the Joker match up? The only one I can think of is Flying Grayson to get out Joker's corner game. If you're mashing wake ups after getting hard knock down by Joker, it's obvious you have a personal problem playing the Nightwing-Joker match up.

Why is so hard for you to bait shot gun? You're talking about day 1 tech, but you make it seem like it's a mission to do something so fundamental in a fighting game with trading projectiles. In fact, Joker offline is a totally different character. In poor connection, anti air Joker's jump over with D2 is a fail waiting to happen. You're basing this entire match up because you don't know how to anti air Joker. Nightwing doesn't have the best tools like Aquaman and cast, but he still has tools. Learn how to use them. If Sajam can anti air Batman's J2 with NW's 12 frame D2, you shouldn't be struggling to anti air a yolo jump in Joker.

I rather see another NW play the set than a NW with bad habits that Qwark downloaded a long time ago. We don't need to see putty patrol, We need the Power Rangers.

Is "can't anti air" the only thing you saw me say

Feel free to wait for a gunshot. Not like you're basically freezing your keepaway if you're waiting for me to do a gunshot that can never come.

Another NW? Chongo, Pryce and 2 offline nightwings not good enough for you? I'll record sets, like I already said twice.

If you think Joker jumps with J2 in D2 range you're mistaken, J2 is strictly crossup setups.

You're basing this matchup based on experience with a Joker that I see doesn't know just how much he can abuse NW, I've been playing this matchup since the launch of the game up until now.

I agree that Joker is a completely different character offline. Online he can't get max damage or lead you into more setups which aren't blockable, nor can he convert into setups, hit sweep setups at the correct height or perform max wallcarry combos that need one touch to corner you from player 1 side to 2 midscreen.

He doesn't "check" wingdings from a punishable distance, he punishes them. Not a punish = backdash 90% of the time.

All I see you doing is bashing another NW.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Is "can't anti air" the only thing you saw me say

Feel free to wait for a gunshot. Not like you're basically freezing your keepaway if you're waiting for me to do a gunshot that can never come.

Another NW? Chongo, Pryce and 2 offline nightwings not good enough for you? I'll record sets, like I already said twice.

If you think Joker jumps with J2 in D2 range you're mistaken, J2 is strictly crossup setups.

You're basing this matchup based on experience with a Joker that I see doesn't know just how much he can abuse NW, I've been playing this matchup since the launch of the game up until now.

I agree that Joker is a completely different character offline. Online he can't get max damage or lead you into more setups which aren't blockable, nor can he convert into setups, hit sweep setups at the correct height or perform max wallcarry combos that need one touch to corner you from player 1 side to 2 midscreen.

He doesn't "check" wingdings from a punishable distance, he punishes them. Not a punish = backdash 90% of the time.

All I see you doing is bashing another NW.

If you're so confident about Joker's full screen game can beat Nightwing's inferior full game then I'd like to see it on video. You spent most of your time on this forum theory fighting, I'm not interested in words. Hope to see the footage soon.

Chongo and Pryce are great Nightwings.

Do you realize the last time Emperor_Dark lost to a Nightwing? You're totally assuming he doesn't know the match up. Don't do that.

NW's D2 and other options such as NJ3 can punish cross up J2 after Joker's pokes a D1. Online, it probably doesn't work with a poor connection. In fact, NW has about 4-5 options he can do to get out of Joker's cross up D2. If you're playing Nightwings who do nothing about it then I can't take what you're saying seriously. You're inviting the thought that you're beating NW all day with cross up J2 and it's the determining factor the match up. How many of the Nightwings(I don't give a what who they are) have applied tactics to getting out of your J2 shenanigans? Do you ever try to help them figure it out or you just abuse it, call it 6-4 and gg?

check...punish, you got the idea Webster.

I hope to see a video soon because you been spending the last months creeping on the NW forums talking about how Joker dominates NW with no footage. I think most people are tired of it already. btw isn't @HeroesNZ in EU? Im guessing you guys played before?

 

[AssassiN]

If you're getting beat by raw jump ins from Joker, then that's a personal problem. Not a Nightwing problem.
You're waking up against Joker? No wonder why you're getting bodied. Joker blows up everything Nightwing has.

So I NEED to wake up against Joker is what you're saying?

So explain now:

Escrima Fury
Flip Kick
Staff Spin
Flying Grayson

How do these wake ups benefit Nightwing in the Joker match up? The only one I can think of is Flying Grayson to get out Joker's corner game. If you're mashing wake ups after getting hard knock down by Joker, it's obvious you have a personal problem playing the Nightwing-Joker match up.

Why is so hard for you to bait shot gun? You're talking about day 1 tech, but you make it seem like it's a mission to do something so fundamental in a fighting game with trading projectiles. In fact, Joker offline is a totally different character. In poor connection, anti air Joker's jump over with D2 is a fail waiting to happen. You're basing this entire match up because you don't know how to anti air Joker. Nightwing doesn't have the best tools like Aquaman and cast, but he still has tools. Learn how to use them. If Sajam can anti air Batman's J2 with NW's 12 frame D2, you shouldn't be struggling to anti air a yolo jump in Joker.

I rather see another NW play the set than a NW with bad habits that Qwark downloaded a long time ago. We don't need to see putty patrol, We need the Power Rangers.

You are so full of yourself.
You really treat me like some kind of scrub huh. Did I even say to always wake-up against Joker?
Fuck no, I said that only Flying Grayson has use against Joker to get away from a few set-ups.
I'm not getting beat by raw jump-ins. I did not say it was "hard" to bait out a gunshot. Good job trying to put words in my mouth.
If I was getting bodied, I'd say 8-2 or some shit not 6-4...
Well yeah, you can D2 AA Batman with a read. I've done it a few times as well. But good luck AA'ing Joker's cross-up J2 with Escrima D2.

It seems like you are mad about the fact that the "worst" character in the game might beat NW.

 

[Braindead]

Easy Dicks, we are all on the same side here.

 

[Dja_Homies]

Dicks drop it now. We are all united here and we have to support sajam the dick who made it to top 8. Please stop this senseless fighting

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

You are so full of yourself.
You really treat me like some kind of scrub huh. Did I even say to always wake-up against Joker?
Fuck no, I said that only Flying Grayson has use against Joker to get away from a few set-ups.
I'm not getting beat by raw jump-ins. I did not say it was "hard" to bait out a gunshot. Good job trying to put words in my mouth.
If I was getting bodied, I'd say 8-2 or some shit not 6-4...
Well yeah, you can D2 AA Batman with a read. I've done it a few times as well. But good luck AA'ing Joker's cross-up J2 with Escrima D2.

It seems like you are mad about the fact that the "worst" character in the game might beat NW.

You stated and I quote "Have fun eating teeth-setups if you think he doesn't need to wake-up against Joker."

You could of mention Flying Grayson instead of me mentioning it for you. You made it sound like Nightwing has to wake up against Joker in every situation. Joker has teeth set ups in mid screen and the corner. So you need to be clear in what you're saying next time.

What are you getting beat by then? Help the forum out.

If you can't anti air Joker's J2 (8 frames) how do you anti air Batman's J2 (7 frames)? Online lag? Batman's higher jump arch that benefits NW's slow D2? I need excuses, hope you have some. Btw, like I mentioned earlier, D2 isn't the only option has against Joker and this is a situation where Joker does a d1 on Nightwing and goes for the cross up. It works perfectly fine offline and I went over it about 50 times. It's fairly easy to do, but I am interesting to hear in what you're struggling with.

Who said Joker is the worst? I think he's pretty good in the right hands. He just has to deal with the likes of Aquaman, Sinestro and anyone who can keep him out. Joker is one of my favorite characters in DC of all time, it would be hard to be mad about anything and it's the character I enjoy fighting against most next to Grundy and Green Arrow. Are you mad though?

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Dicks drop it now. We are all united here and we have to support sajam the dick who made it to top 8. Please stop this senseless fighting

Get your ass on PS3. I wanna see what you got for me lol

 

[Dja_Homies]

Get your ass on PS3. I wanna see what you got for me lol

Later once I get back home in an hour or two

 

[Shaazzyam]

Looks like a majority of NW players in here do not understand that this MU is 4-6.
I've played Qwark enough to know how this MU goes. We're both from Europe so we have a better connection than you guys will with Qwark.

F213 into Flipkick/Staff Spin/Ground Pound is not a mix-up... There is a soundcue when switching to Staff and canceling it(while there is no soundcue switching from Staff to Escrima when canceling it at the earliest frame).
The opponent can just block low when he hears it, a possible mix-up would be a delayed Staff Spin and Ground Pound.
Seeing that Ground Pound can be interrupted with a 6-frame move, so a delayed Staff Spin would punish that.

NW has no good AA's, mediocre wake-ups(his Flying Grayson will get you out of a few Joker set-ups) and decent zoning against Joker(Joker has the advantage at first because of how fast his gunshot is).

Sigh. So just block low against Batman right? I mean, he doesn't even have a true 50-50. But then then why do people still get opened up by him?
Nobody can block forever.

I'm sure you guys who played Quark have good Dicks. I'm not taking anything away from you. The best NW I've played was Sajam and, after SCR, I think no one's going to argue that. He's the only Nightwing that I've lost to in a set. And I've played:

Lord of the fly
Macro
Gpmoney
Emperor Murk
Emperor Pryce
DIrty Lova
and couple other good NWs that aren't on tym

So I think it's fair to say, that, until the best Nightwing plays the "best" Joker, the MU number should not be set.

 

[AssassiN]

Sigh. So just block low against Batman right? I mean, he doesn't even have a true 50-50. But then then why do people still get opened up by him?
Nobody can block forever.

I'm sure you guys who played Quark have good Dicks. I'm not taking anything away from you. The best NW I've played was Sajam and, after SCR, I think no one's going to argue that. He's the only Nightwing that I've lost to in a set. And I've played:

Lord of the fly
Macro
Gpmoney
Emperor Murk
Emperor Pryce
DIrty Lova
and couple other good NWs that aren't on tym

So I think it's fair to say, that, until the best Nightwing plays the "best" Joker, the MU number should not be set.

Can we not become the character community that argues about who the best NW or whatever is?
I'm not trying to discredit other NW's and I will never do so. When I said majority, I meant that probably a huge part of NW's hasn't fought a good Joker that knows the MU.
And yeah, offline > online. But until a good Joker gets off the net and actually goes to tournament, we'll have to base our judgments of online matches.
There are MU's that I barely know or never fought an extremely good player who mastered the character. I wouldn't give my thoughts or advice against said MU's.

At this point, Sajam is the highest placing NW who has probably spent more time than us in the lab with NW.
So congrats to him and I hope he wins a major with NW. His Martian was looking extremely good as well.
So I suppose he can be called the best NW. But I'd rather call him and Chongo as the best NW's.
Seeing that Chongo used 100% NW while Sajam switched between MMH and NW(which we'll have to do if we ever want to win a tournament).

 

[Chongo]

Sigh. So just block low against Batman right? I mean, he doesn't even have a true 50-50. But then then why do people still get opened up by him?
Nobody can block forever.

I'm sure you guys who played Quark have good Dicks. I'm not taking anything away from you. The best NW I've played was Sajam and, after SCR, I think no one's going to argue that. He's the only Nightwing that I've lost to in a set. And I've played:

Lord of the fly
Macro
Gpmoney
Emperor Murk
Emperor Pryce
DIrty Lova
and couple other good NWs that aren't on tym

So I think it's fair to say, that, until the best Nightwing plays the "best" Joker, the MU number should not be set.

I don't see my name on that list.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Sigh. So just block low against Batman right? I mean, he doesn't even have a true 50-50. But then then why do people still get opened up by him?
Nobody can block forever.

I'm sure you guys who played Quark have good Dicks. I'm not taking anything away from you. The best NW I've played was Sajam and, after SCR, I think no one's going to argue that. He's the only Nightwing that I've lost to in a set. And I've played:

Lord of the fly
Macro
Gpmoney
Emperor Murk
Emperor Pryce
DIrty Lova
and couple other good NWs that aren't on tym

So I think it's fair to say, that, until the best Nightwing plays the "best" Joker, the MU number should not be set.

mirrors tell you all you need to know about a player...especially online.

grow up NW community.

When I played Quark, I was a grundy main and the lag was so bad that I couldn't WCC at all. That said, I could tell he was really good and knew what he was doing. I say just drop it and agree to play it out OFFLINE when you can.

Also...the best NW playing the best Joker means nothing unless its been done over and over. Humans can ever only speculate on MU numbers. They can never "Know" 100%.

 

[Sajam]

For the record I think NW is 5-5 or maybe slight advantage on MMH.

Just throwing that out, it's a MU I think is important.

Also Joker beating NW is an interesting idea. I don't have extensive experience in the MU, but I can see the talking points that both sides are making. I dunno if I buy the, "NW doesn't have an anti air" being huge in the MU, since I very rarely anti air. I'm always content to block and downback, there isn't a reason not to most of the time. NW's normals are so slow I would rather block and wait for a chance to play safely.

I think a big issue NW players have is being in the right part of the screen. You really need to occupy a space where wing dings can anti air, b2 can beat badly spaced jumps, and trait cancel mb ground blast will lead into a b3 into full combo. That spot on the screen is where you always need to be, and learning to occupy and maintain that space is super important.

 

[Shaazzyam]

Can we not become the character community that argues about who the best NW or whatever is?

So I suppose he can be called the best NW. But I'd rather call him and Chongo as the best NW's.
Seeing that Chongo used 100% NW while Sajam switched between MMH and NW(which we'll have to do if we ever want to win a tournament).

There will always someone who will be the best at any given time. Right now it's Sajam.
It's not meant in a way to tear other NW players down, but celebrate the one that made it the farthest.

NW deals with usual top tier (MMH, AM, WW, BM, BG, Flash and Superman i think is 4-6 but not impossible) pretty well. We just have to get the salt out of our eyes and represent. I'm trying to save up. I know Emperor Murk is going to Final Round and he's hype as fuck to whip his Dick out. I think the dream is still alive, but make no mistake the struggle is real.

I don't see my name on that list.

I'm always up for the mirror, brah. I'll shoot you a FR

 

[AssassiN]

There will always someone who will be the best at any given time. Right now it's Sajam.
It's not meant in a way to tear other NW players down, but celebrate the one that made it the farthest.

NW deals with usual top tier (MMH, AM, WW, BM, BG, Flash and Superman i think is 4-6 but not impossible) pretty well. We just have to get the salt out of our eyes and represent. I'm trying to save up. I know Emperor Murk is going to Final Round and he's hype as fuck to whip his Dick out. I think the dream is still alive, but make no mistake the struggle is real.

All I'm saying is that I want to leave any discussions about "who the best NW is" out of our forums.
That starts useless discussions, salt and is just counter-productive. I just want the community to help each other out instead of saying "I don't care what you think, you ain't the best Dick".

The first thing NW main's need to realize is that we cannot be loyalists in a tournament.
Characters like Sinestro, Zod and Cyborg will mop us up(some being more easy to handle), no shame in switching.
Like you said the struggle is real, but I'm afraid NW loyalist winning a major will always remain a wet dream.

I'm willing to play anyone if the connection is good enough, people will get a better connection with me than they will with Qwark.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

All I'm saying is that I want to leave any discussions about "who the best NW is" out of our forums.
That starts useless discussions, salt and is just counter-productive. I just want the community to help each other out instead of saying "I don't care what you think, you ain't the best Dick".

The first thing NW main's need to realize is that we cannot be loyalists in a tournament.
Characters like Sinestro, Zod and Cyborg will mop us up(some being more easy to handle), no shame in switching.
Like you said the struggle is real, but I'm afraid NW loyalist winning a major will always remain a wet dream.

I'm willing to play anyone if the connection is good enough, people will get a better connection with me than they will with Qwark.

Preach!

If you can counter hawk girl cyborg sinistro and zod, every other match can be won by Nightwing.

What other character counters these characters the best in your opinion?

Buy "your" I mean all nightwing players

 

[Shaazzyam]

Preach!

If you can counter hawk girl cyborg sinistro and zod, every other match can be won by Nightwing.

What other character counters these characters the best in your opinion?

Buy "your" I mean all nightwing players

Well.... probably Marvin the Martian or Aquaman

 

[Sajam]

Preach!

If you can counter hawk girl cyborg sinistro and zod, every other match can be won by Nightwing.

What other character counters these characters the best in your opinion?

Buy "your" I mean all nightwing players

Martian

 

[Chongo]

Probably well known but Martian f2 goes over staff d1. 1 beats that after a blocked d1, but he can d1 you if you go for it.

 

[Sajam]

Probably well known but Martian f2 goes over staff d1. 1 beats that after a blocked d1, but he can d1 you if you go for it.

Yeah that normal is very good against staff NW. Super annoying

 

[Chongo]

Yeah that normal is very good against staff NW. Super annoying

Unless I'm missing something, f2 cannot be canceled into a special, and it seems he can really only do f2d3 push as a punish, which pushes us fullscreen where we wanna be. He can do f2u1 tele but I'm pretty sure that string is hella - and can't be hitconfirmed.

 

[Shaazzyam]

Unless I'm missing something, f2 cannot be canceled into a special, and it seems he can really only do f2d3 push as a punish, which pushes us fullscreen where we wanna be. He can do f2u1 tele but I'm pretty sure that string is hella - and can't be hitconfirmed.

After F2U1, MMH can cancel into a teleport only. F2 also goes over ground spark and ground pound.

 

[Chongo]

After F2U1, MMH can cancel into a teleport only. F2 also goes over ground spark and ground pound.

I know, I said that.

 

[Sajam]

Unless I'm missing something, f2 cannot be canceled into a special, and it seems he can really only do f2d3 push as a punish, which pushes us fullscreen where we wanna be. He can do f2u1 tele but I'm pretty sure that string is hella - and can't be hitconfirmed.

On block he can do f2 d1 close mb orb. He can hit confirm f2 u1 also. He inputs the teleport and holds down if you block.