"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

[Fromundaman]

I'm still on the fence about Batman and Superman. Sinestro is rough as well. Zod is most certainly 7-3. Flash, IMO, definitely is as well. MMH probably is. Aquaman likely also is. Wonder Woman has a high probability as well. I think Gil often says Nightwing is, but I can't comment there; I'm inclined to disagree, but I don't have enough MU experience. Grundy I lose to alot, but I think that's just an issue I have; I need to play that matchup differently than I currently do. Hawkgirl maybe due to her ability to zone him out and get around gunshots due to animation crap, but maybe not.

I'm going to preface this by saying that my knowledge could be outdated since I haven't been able to play in a month.

That said...

There is no way in hell that MMH is 7-3. He's a good character, but that doesn't make him unbeatable, and he doesn't have anything that specifically shuts Joker down. On the flip side, we can actually somewhat keep his zoning in check better than other characters with gunshot, and unless he is traited we beat him in mid range.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a good MU, but it's not 7-3.

WW also has an advantage, but it's not THAT massive.

Honestly, I still don't think Zod is a 7-3 either, but then again my local one isn't top level so IDK. I don't see what he has that shuts us down more than anyone else though.

Sinestro is definitely NOT a 7-3 MU. You want a 7-3 or 8-2 MU, play against Sinestro as Lex. Joker has a way easier time. We can keep him in check with gunshot, we actually have about as much disjoinct range as he does and are considerably more positive with it than Sinestro is on most of his moves. We can also RAPE his wakeups. That said, it's not an easy matchup and it has to be played patient;y until you can score a knockdown.
Now with trait it's a different story, but Sinestro with trait is 7-3 the whole cast.

I can agree with Flash.... That MU is abysmal. Maybe Hawkgirl too, but then again Hawkgirl is a character you have to play so differently against that I just wonder if I just haven't figured it out yet.


That said it looks like you're just grabbing the commonly named 'top' characters and proclaiming them a bad matchup. I really REALLY don't think Joker loses to all of those characters.


Then again, I also don't think any of us are playing Joker as well as we should be yet. Every time I watch any Joker player play, myself included, I see constant drops as well as most of us avoiding the difficult combos/setups altogether out of fear of dropping shit.
Joker is a hard character to play, but I honestly don't think he is unviable. We just need to step it up. I know I for one plan to try to do just that.


EDIT:

Batmans b11 the 2nd hit whiffs on joker in game I believe. But Bane basically runs train, his armor game and oki are outstanding,so is damage and when he's on debuff he can outrun us and I we even happen to catch him with a gunshot I doubt he'll care much

I mean no disrespect with this, but the Bane you play is one of the best, if not THE best, around. The skill gap may be what makes that matchup seem more daunting than it really is.

Alternatively, maybe I don't think it's as bad as you say precisely BECAUSE I haven't had the chance to play against Max. Who knows?

I always felt like our 21 string and teeth were godlike for beating out armor, and so long as he isn't in level 3, teeth and/or MB B3 seems like a good option vs his wakeups or that overhead special.
His wakeups are amazing as well, it's true, but thankfully we have OTGs and standing resets we can use to avoid them completely.

Now admittedly, I don't have a huge amount of Bane experience, and the ones I did play didn't have much Joker experience either, so maybe I played the MU completely wrong, but it didn't feel THAT bad to me. In fact I prefer playing against Bane with Joker over Lex.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

What frametraps does batman have? Nothing but bats, which you want him using because it means then he's not zoning you. There's no mixup with f3, bats aren't low, f3 is 31f and if cancels it it's even easier to see.

He can rush, he can't open you up. How is he going to open you up with see able overheads? Anything he does that is unsafe you should D2/gunshot/flower, the chip from the MB trident is trading meter which is in his favour slightly depending on the circumstances. But we do like him up close, any character who we must rush we want up close, and when they are up close they give up their zoning advantage, thus making the matchup easier.

vs superman the whole point is him doing those lasers, if he's not doing gunshot checkable and punishable lasers then he's doing them sky high where you can even dash forward before they're out ( if you know he's gonna do it ) block and then dash again to be right in his face, otherwise you get a free dash as usual with him still being a bit -. High laser is an almost useless zoning tool because it's duckable so he must catch you off guard with it.

Good zoning is the kind of zoning that can check you dashing. Good players can use tools wells, that doesn't mean that the tools themselves are good, superman has zoning that is not fast and not difficult to avoid or block which in sequence gives you a free dash, someone like batman has much better zoning than superman.

His f23 doesn't hit airborne enemies above a certain height and he cannot AA us, it's very difficult to do so, J3 is more dominant from a certain range. Fullscreen he can't force us to block anything while we punish each other on grounded laser/gunshot reads, up close he wins and midscreen its even. His wall carry also serves us because if we get a crossup then its GGs and Superman can't really AA us. His prepatch corner combos were doing less damage than what we do with a 213 ender so it balances out.

Batman's f3 is an ambiguous crossup on knockdown is what I'm talking about. And it can be dash canceled for additional shenanigans. It doesn't matter if he is using bats either. Good Batman's manage them well enough to keep you in that trap for days. I'm not certain, but the matchup is very close to a 7-3, if not there.
Yeah we want Aquaman up close, but it's not in our favor and that's the point. Meter being waste for a 20% chip on block? You're calling that a waste? Lol AND it builds about half a bar back. He out-footsies us with d1 and b1, and converts into big damage. He is no less scary up close. This is most definitely 7-3, especially once you account for the whiff bullshit.
Sky high is not the optimal height for Supe's lasers. There is a spot just about the hitbox of gunshot where he is safe in all scenarios. Gives you a dash, but nothing more. And there get's to be a spot where you have to stop dashing because f23 is still perfectly capable of catching and punishing you. High laser is only good in that it's hard to tell the animations apart and if you jump expecting a sweeping laser, this will generally catch you. Then the corner. Horrible. He has huge damage and rising grab escapes everything we have in the corner, and we can only punish it with a d1 xx flower... blehck. He doesn't have to reset us in the corner, he still has 80-90% combos. You just haven't seen them yet. Still think this one is more of a 6-4 though. But it can get out of hand VERY fast. So I'm not certain.

 

[Fromundaman]

I'm pretty sure Batman's F3 on knockdown is like Zatanna's. If you know the timing of it you should be able to react to whether or not he held it to know which side it'll hit on.
That said, dash cancel shenanigans are straight mindgames.

That said, pushblocking Batman helps a lot too.
I just need to practice getting around his zoning more. I think I've been respecting batarangs more than I should.

 

[The PantyChrist]

This probably won't help much but when wowo or batman go for ambiguous f3 just parry

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I'm going to preface this by saying that my knowledge could be outdated since I haven't been able to play in a month.

That said...

There is no way in hell that MMH is 7-3. He's a good character, but that doesn't make him unbeatable, and he doesn't have anything that specifically shuts Joker down. On the flip side, we can actually somewhat keep his zoning in check better than other characters with gunshot, and unless he is traited we beat him in mid range.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a good MU, but it's not 7-3.

WW also has an advantage, but it's not THAT massive.

Honestly, I still don't think Zod is a 7-3 either, but then again my local one isn't top level so IDK. I don't see what he has that shuts us down more than anyone else though.

Sinestro is definitely NOT a 7-3 MU. You want a 7-3 or 8-2 MU, play against Sinestro as Lex. Joker has a way easier time. We can keep him in check with gunshot, we actually have about as much disjoinct range as he does and are considerably more positive with it than Sinestro is on most of his moves. We can also RAPE his wakeups. That said, it's not an easy matchup and it has to be played patient;y until you can score a knockdown.
Now with trait it's a different story, but Sinestro with trait is 7-3 the whole cast.

I can agree with Flash.... That MU is abysmal. Maybe Hawkgirl too, but then again Hawkgirl is a character you have to play so differently against that I just wonder if I just haven't figured it out yet.


That said it looks like you're just grabbing the commonly named 'top' characters and proclaiming them a bad matchup. I really REALLY don't think Joker loses to all of those characters.


Then again, I also don't think any of us are playing Joker as well as we should be yet. Every time I watch any Joker player play, myself included, I see constant drops as well as most of us avoiding the difficult combos/setups altogether out of fear of dropping shit.
Joker is a hard character to play, but I honestly don't think he is unviable. We just need to step it up. I know I for one plan to try to do just that.


EDIT:

I mean no disrespect with this, but the Bane you play is one of the best, if not THE best, around. The skill gap may be what makes that matchup seem more daunting than it really is.

Alternatively, maybe I don't think it's as bad as you say precisely BECAUSE I haven't had the chance to play against Max. Who knows?

I always felt like our 21 string and teeth were godlike for beating out armor, and so long as he isn't in level 3, teeth and/or MB B3 seems like a good option vs his wakeups or that overhead special.
His wakeups are amazing as well, it's true, but thankfully we have OTGs and standing resets we can use to avoid them completely.

Now admittedly, I don't have a huge amount of Bane experience, and the ones I did play didn't have much Joker experience either, so maybe I played the MU completely wrong, but it didn't feel THAT bad to me. In fact I prefer playing against Bane with Joker over Lex.

Everything I've said is based on matchup experience. With all do respect to you, I think you are downplaying the difficulty of some of these matchups because they are good characters and are under the impression that I am simply going off that. I play with some of the best people in the world at the characters that I'm talking about and am fairly confident in my assessments, albeit that there is something of a skillgap between myself and these individuals. KDZ's superman (and early WW), Jupiter's MMH, Arma's Batman, Grr's Bane, Riyo's Aquaman, etc. I know this sounds douchey, and I apologize for that because it is in no way my intention, but I have been grinding alot of these out like crazy and have a good idea of what I'm talking about.
With all this, I'm not saying these matchups are unwinnable (that's not what a 7-3 is...), I'm just designating them as exceedingly difficult and must be played very well to be won on the highest level, and you are going to need your opponent to make some mistakes.
I defer to Qwark's opinion on matchups like Sinestro and some others because he simply has more/higher-level experience with them than I do. That said, his zoning tools are better than ours by far, he has a vortex, he has superior footsie tools (safe b12 into hit-confirmable shackles for trait charge or vortex), and his trait demolishes ours. He is a character that we have to knock down and never ever allow to stand again.
It's great that we can keep MMH in check with gunshot, but he also has amazing counterzoning on top of very good zoning. This causes a guessing game that is in no way in our favor. Mid range, I'm not sure how you think Joker possibly wins. We can try for sweep/crowbar 50/50s, but they are crazy punishable. Up close, he has 50/50's and we don't. He can frame trap into them at the end of combos. He might be a high 6-4, but he might also be a 7-3, I'm just saying it is crappy either way.
WW advantage *is* pretty massive. We can zone her a bit, but she can close the gap easily, and demolishes Joker up close. Qwark even tends to counterpick against her with BA because of how rough this one can be.
Bane can be struggle. Once you are knocked down and he has trait, it's a terrible time because of his oki, but in the neutral game, I think this matchup is pretty even. We can zone him out decently with teeth and some gunshot/canister action. Preemptive teeth make him never want to charge again because you don't even have to waste meter pushblocking to get him into a combo off of them. He has decent mixup in once he is up close however, and one wrong read can easily send you spiraling. This match is more about knowing your opponent than knowing the matchup IMO. You need to be able to make the right reads to stay afloat.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Just out of curiosity who do you guys use as alts?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

This probably won't help much but when wowo or batman go for ambiguous f3 just parry

Yeah, I've been experimenting with this actually. If they read it, though, you're eating a combo. Everything becomes a guessing game . It also sucks that parry isn't usable as a reversal or wakeup still. Having to fit that input into tight frame windows sucks, especially when you can't really option select due to the ambiguity of this situation.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Just out of curiosity who do you guys use as alts?

My character selections in fighting games are purely based on how much I like them. In this game, my favorite is Joker, and I also screw around with Lobo, MMH, and Sinestro. Not for any particular reason though, I just like them.

 

[Qwark28]

Batman's f3 is an ambiguous crossup on knockdown is what I'm talking about. And it can be dash canceled for additional shenanigans. It doesn't matter if he is using bats either. Good Batman's manage them well enough to keep you in that trap for days. I'm not certain, but the matchup is very close to a 7-3, if not there.
Yeah we want Aquaman up close, but it's not in our favor and that's the point. Meter being waste for a 20% chip on block? You're calling that a waste? Lol AND it builds about half a bar back. He out-footsies us with d1 and b1, and converts into big damage. He is no less scary up close. This is most definitely 7-3, especially once you account for the whiff bullshit.
Sky high is not the optimal height for Supe's lasers. There is a spot just about the hitbox of gunshot where he is safe in all scenarios. Gives you a dash, but nothing more. And there get's to be a spot where you have to stop dashing because f23 is still perfectly capable of catching and punishing you. High laser is only good in that it's hard to tell the animations apart and if you jump expecting a sweeping laser, this will generally catch you. Then the corner. Horrible. He has huge damage and rising grab escapes everything we have in the corner, and we can only punish it with a d1 xx flower... blehck. He doesn't have to reset us in the corner, he still has 80-90% combos. You just haven't seen them yet. Still think this one is more of a 6-4 though. But it can get out of hand VERY fast. So I'm not certain.

Why the hell would you not trade bars with aquaman? And the chip is more like 15% which is why when aquaman does it you trade bars.

We can full combo rising grab man, its - a million. You also shouldn't ever jump or air to air a laser unless pre emptively, was one of the things I completely forgot in tournament, when I watched the footage I saw i could've easily just dashed under.

Sky high is pretty much any scenario where the laser is very -, not neccesarily max height but I worded it bady. That spot gives you a dash and a gunshot check.

F3s on knockdown aren't really a mixup, if dash cancelled there's an obvious pause and if you actually practice the setup in the lab you can tell where you'll be hit, this coming from someone who blocks wonderwoman's f3 bullshit midscreen. That stop dashing scenario exists in pretty much every fighting game with a zoner, you also have to deal with deathstrokes stuff, sagats stuff, kabals stuff etc. I'm still working on the matchup but it is in no way 7-3 IMO.

You keep listing the good things other characters have but overlook our own, who can jump better on superman than us? Who gets the monstrous damage we get in the corner? Yes, his combos hurt, but fuck no not as much as ours.

 

[Qwark28]

I will agree with you on superman if I see the huge damage combos and if they truly are combos and not something escapable though, that'd be fair to agree to but I'd still think it'd be a soft 7-3. I'll run this MU today when I go to the dojo so I can learn it better.

 

[Qwark28]

Everything I've said is based on matchup experience. With all do respect to you, I think you are downplaying the difficulty of some of these matchups because they are good characters and are under the impression that I am simply going off that. I play with some of the best people in the world at the characters that I'm talking about and am fairly confident in my assessments, albeit that there is something of a skillgap between myself and these individuals. KDZ's superman (and early WW), Jupiter's MMH, Arma's Batman, Grr's Bane, Riyo's Aquaman, etc. I know this sounds douchey, and I apologize for that because it is in no way my intention, but I have been grinding alot of these out like crazy and have a good idea of what I'm talking about.
With all this, I'm not saying these matchups are unwinnable (that's not what a 7-3 is...), I'm just designating them as exceedingly difficult and must be played very well to be won on the highest level, and you are going to need your opponent to make some mistakes.
I defer to Qwark's opinion on matchups like Sinestro and some others because he simply has more/higher-level experience with them than I do. That said, his zoning tools are better than ours by far, he has a vortex, he has superior footsie tools (safe b12 into hit-confirmable shackles for trait charge or vortex), and his trait demolishes ours. He is a character that we have to knock down and never ever allow to stand again.
It's great that we can keep MMH in check with gunshot, but he also has amazing counterzoning on top of very good zoning. This causes a guessing game that is in no way in our favor. Mid range, I'm not sure how you think Joker possibly wins. We can try for sweep/crowbar 50/50s, but they are crazy punishable. Up close, he has 50/50's and we don't. He can frame trap into them at the end of combos. He might be a high 6-4, but he might also be a 7-3, I'm just saying it is crappy either way.
WW advantage *is* pretty massive. We can zone her a bit, but she can close the gap easily, and demolishes Joker up close. Qwark even tends to counterpick against her with BA because of how rough this one can be.
Bane can be struggle. Once you are knocked down and he has trait, it's a terrible time because of his oki, but in the neutral game, I think this matchup is pretty even. We can zone him out decently with teeth and some gunshot/canister action. Preemptive teeth make him never want to charge again because you don't even have to waste meter pushblocking to get him into a combo off of them. He has decent mixup in once he is up close however, and one wrong read can easily send you spiraling. This match is more about knowing your opponent than knowing the matchup IMO. You need to be able to make the right reads to stay afloat.

IDK, there are still a lot of things I need to work on, I really haven't played IGAU seriously in a month, I must flesh out what I have in mind before I make a final judgement so don't take my current skill into account, I'm still digging into this matchup.

And one thing that needs to be said in these forums, you're not a douche if you say "I've played these and these and I believe this is up for discussion" It's something I've seen people be timid about when they shouldn't, feel free to provide support for arguements because you do play x/y people and we do need info.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I will agree with you on superman if I see the huge damage combos and if they truly are combos and not something escapable though, that'd be fair to agree to but I'd still think it'd be a soft 7-3. I'll run this MU today when I go to the dojo so I can learn it better.

Yeah that's pretty much what I've been calling it. A hard 6-4 to soft 7-3. Just saying it's tough.
The reason I'm not listing our strengths is because I'm making my case for why these matchups are bad. I'm not trying to downplay anything or make things sounds horrendous, I'm just stating that facts for why I many of these are what I think they are.

 

[Fromundaman]

7-3 means that we lose 7 out of 10 games when it's played. I guess anything that's not unwinnable, but that's when in my mind it becomes counterpick time and while it may not be "truly unwinnable", I will refer to those and anything worse than that as such XD
I also compare matchup numbers we give with those my other character has, and seriously, no MU feels even close to Lex vs Sinestro to me.

Also I apologize, I had just gotten home after a hellish trip back (Seriously, I am free to United Airlines. They knock me down and never let me get back off the ground.) and so didn't explain things as I should have.

I respect your opinion, but from when I've seen you play, you don't seem to use D2 much against these characters, which is our most ridiculously disjoincted move and allows us to go toe to toe with people MMH, Supes, Sinestro, etc. at mid range.

D2 beats out all of Sinestro's melee attacks in term of range (1st hit of a string anyway) except *maybe* his D2. It also beats out all of MMH's melee attacks (again 1st hits of a string) in terms of range unless he's traited.

Also I don't think MMH's zoning is all that amazing considering you can avoid and punish it on reaction if it's the projectile that comes from the top of the screen, and the pillars are exactly like Raven pillars but more punishable; dash forward or back to force him to guess, and if he guesses wrong you get a gunshot. This allows you to keep zoning in check while not leaving yourself open to teleports.

That said, his orbs are WAY better at stage control than our teeth, and that hurts us a lot in the matchup.
IDK, it really feels like a 6-4 to me, and I actually play a pretty good MMH (Possibly best in the Midwest?). That said, I still CP Lex since Lex definitely wins that MU.


I'm still unsure what exactly to think about WW since our WW pretty much never does friendlies. So far it seems that MU is dead even with Lex, and slightly worse with Joker to me. She does close the gap really fast and does outrange us, but she has a really weak wakeup as well. Honestly this feels like a very momentum based match to me, and we both do a decent job of AAing each other (Although she does jump over our D2 at the tip of her jump, which is BS). IDK, I guess it could be 7-3, but it didn't feel THAT bad to me.




EDIT: That said I am rusty at the moment and you have better MU experience than I with most of these characters, so honestly you probably do know better than I.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

7-3 means that we lose 7 out of 10 games when it's played. I guess anything that's not unwinnable, but that's when in my mind it becomes counterpick time and while it may not be "truly unwinnable", I will refer to those and anything worse than that as such XD
I also compare matchup numbers we give with those my other character has, and seriously, no MU feels even close to Lex vs Sinestro to me.

Also I apologize, I had just gotten home after a hellish trip back (Seriously, I am free to United Airlines. They knock me down and never let me get back off the ground.) and so didn't explain things as I should have.

I respect your opinion, but from when I've seen you play, you don't seem to use D2 much against these characters, which is our most ridiculously disjoincted move and allows us to go toe to toe with people MMH, Supes, Sinestro, etc. at mid range.

D2 beats out all of Sinestro's melee attacks in term of range (1st hit of a string anyway) except *maybe* his D2. It also beats out all of MMH's melee attacks (again 1st hits of a string) in terms of range unless he's traited.

Also I don't think MMH's zoning is all that amazing considering you can avoid and punish it on reaction if it's the projectile that comes from the top of the screen, and the pillars are exactly like Raven pillars but more punishable; dash forward or back to force him to guess, and if he guesses wrong you get a gunshot. This allows you to keep zoning in check while not leaving yourself open to teleports.

That said, his orbs are WAY better at stage control than our teeth, and that hurts us a lot in the matchup.
IDK, it really feels like a 6-4 to me, and I actually play a pretty good MMH (Possibly best in the Midwest?). That said, I still CP Lex since Lex definitely wins that MU.


I'm still unsure what exactly to think about WW since our WW pretty much never does friendlies. So far it seems that MU is dead even with Lex, and slightly worse with Joker to me. She does close the gap really fast and does outrange us, but she has a really weak wakeup as well. Honestly this feels like a very momentum based match to me, and we both do a decent job of AAing each other (Although she does jump over our D2 at the tip of her jump, which is BS). IDK, I guess it could be 7-3, but it didn't feel THAT bad to me.




EDIT: That said I am rusty at the moment and you have better MU experience than I with most of these characters, so honestly you probably do know better than I.

Yeah, I tend to shy away from d2 more than I should, but have started incorporating it more. I think one issue is I don't adapt well to different matchups some nights, and I generally do warmup sets with KDZ. F23 has the same range as d2, but is faster by a few frames and leads to much harsher punishes. I'm rusty as hell so this week's break is probably gonna be sloppy, but I have been incorporating some stuff into my game that I wasn't abusing before, so hopefully I'll have some better stuff to show you.
I'm also fairly certain d2 doesn't beat, but goes even with, sinestro's b1 range, which again, is a faster move. I think Sinestro is a very underrated character in the current meta. People only regard him as a zoner, forgetting he has a 50/50 vortex and a pretty decent up-close game.
And MMH can outrange us all day with trait, and is very good at allowing himself to slow the match down when it's on cooldown until it comes back.
It's fine for us to disagree on some of these matchups though. Debating them is good for the forums. I'm not staking anything as definitively 7-3 yet because I simply don't play enough to do so. I'm simply pointing out the matchups that I suspect could be.

 

[Fromundaman]

I understand completely. I have no problem with intelligent conversation/debate.

I believe Sinestro's B1 has slightly less disjoinct range than ours (It has more reach, but it moves his hurtbox forward and I'm almost certain he hits crowbar before the axe hits us), but yes it is faster. TBH they're both godlike, but my point was that D2 allows us to stay in that range without being completely free.

And yeah, MMH with trait is a nightmare XD I pretty much just block and wait for it to run out most of the time, then go in.

 

[The PantyChrist]

I had just gotten home after a hellish trip back (Seriously, I am free to United Airlines. They knock me down and never let me get back off the ground.)

That's funny I would expect te opposite

 

[Qwark28]

IMO sinestro is not that great, ive talked to many sinestro players and they all think that hes pretty good but has nothing outstanding, which is true.

 

[Fromundaman]

I kind of agree. The thing is, "not that great" is still pretty damn good in this game, and when he gets trait up everyone can agree that he becomes hands down the best character in the game.

Sinestro is kind of like Raven in the fact that everything changes when trait comes up.


On a side note, I'm starting to mess with a month's worth of ideas and so far things seem to be working fairly well. (One of the setups already got posted though. I was working with that same setup amplified posted but with F2 instead of B13. TBH I prefer his version.) I'm still testing but expect new stuff soon.
Also starting to mess with bounce cancels with mixed results...

Anyway there's a good chance I'll need someone to record something for me soon unless I get a capture card in the next week or so, in which case I'll hold off until that arrives.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I can record whatever you need.

 

[Qwark28]

Yourself in a tuxedo covered in honey while a transvestite bear is drinking vodka

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I think that would come out better on your potato cam. Make it happen.

 

[Qwark28]

Also

Aquaman 9f b1 sweep distance

Joker 12f d2 jump distance

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Also

Aquaman 9f b1 sweep distance

Joker 12f d2 jump distance

I feel like you also have to take into account more than simply range in this comparison though. You don't get much off a grounded d2 with Joker, and even in the air, converting for big damage has a pretty high execution curve, not to mention you can't use flower to make it safe at distances outside of sweep I think and when they jump, d2's hitbox can get pretty inconsistent and weird until they are close. Aquaman's b1 combos are braindead, break 40%, and can be made safe if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Qwark28]

I feel like you also have to take into account more than simply range in this comparison though. You don't get much off a grounded d2 with Joker, and even in the air, converting for big damage has a pretty high execution curve, not to mention you can't use flower to make it safe at distances outside of sweep I think and when they jump, d2's hitbox can get pretty inconsistent and weird until they are close. Aquaman's b1 combos are braindead, break 40%, and can be made safe if I'm not mistaken.

We get about 21% into a crowbar.

Joker doesn't really have much execution requirements IMO, everything he has is pretty straightforward, the main thing with what I'm saying is that we outrange him with B2 while being just a bit slower. We can keep him out and from max range it's not like he can punish D2, we really don't need to be so pessimistic when we finally see what we can see and possibly excel at.

 

[OnlineRon91]

Most characters cant really punish Jokers d2 from max range. The ones that can are with like a special move. Aquamans is clearly better though.