Lets talk about the actual top 5 chars in this game

[Vulcan Hades]

I read through about half the thread and then skimmed a lot of the rest so maybe I missed this, but while I saw people say they think Batgirl is slept on and good, I didn't really see anyone explain why they don't think she's top 5. I dunno, I think I'd have her in there. But the game seems kinda tough to evaluate right now to me what with the patch and the pretty decent balance job and how spread out a lot of the serious character specialists are. Top 5 might be cutting it a little too finely right now.

Edit: Lol read more and of course I missed the Batgirl talk near the middle. Nm I guess but she still seems like top 5 material to me.

Batgirl is stupid good and her vortex is scary but what does she do when she is not in your face besides yolo teleports?

I don't use Batgirl but just from watching tournament streams it seems like she has the same problems as Flash (and I'm not just talking about Zyphox ). I mean if she isn't rushing down and keeping momentum then she is struggling and has to rely on unsafe yolo stuff to get in.

Killer Frost has a similar style except her slide is safe on block and she can also zone and counter zone better than Batgirl I feel. I don't know, I just don't see how Batgirl and Flash can be higher on the tierlist than the more well rounded characters that are great at all ranges and not just up close. Like Martian Manhunter, Zod and Wonder Woman for example.

 

[RunwayMafia]

KF is only an even mu though.. and HG is either even or adv Aquaman. The way it goes at the moment, Aquaman has the edge but i wouldnt argue even.

Out of my three ladies (CW, KF, HG) it goes like this (in my perspective): I wouldn't dare pick CW against even a semi competent AquaMan. Killer Frost goes even I agree (except I love that I can actually punish his ground move from anywhere on the screen) and I haven't played too many good AquaMan's (Theo's just recently) and I had no idea the dirt behind his trait (interrupting strings and shit) so my opinion on AM is of course evolving. HawkGirl on the other hand...I feel way more confident with against AM. If played smart and somewhat lame, I think she has the edge.

 

[godlessmode]

Top 5: NPO

Batgirl - She has IMO the best vortex in the game edging out MMH due to her increased mixup potential. She can play lame and force you to approach her, while preventing you from zoning her with a teleport. She only has one range where she has a hard time fighting, and most characters do poorly in this range (outside of cartwheel, but close enough to threaten and prevent the teleport/zoning options). She has amazing wake-up options, which lead to her vortex. Builds dumb meter. And does remarkable block damage.

MMH - Great vortex, cannot be zoned, safe vortex starting/launching teleport, good zoning, strong mix-ups. IMO MMH is the clear #1.

Zod - Before the patch he was securely in the top 10 for me. The damage done to Superman and Black Adam gave him room to move up. He is the best space controller in the game. Not in the keepaway/runaway zoning vein, but more in the fact that he can control so much of the screen at a given time. He also has a strong albeit trait based mixup game. Good damage. Good movement. And is generally safe.

Aquaman - Dat trait, water shield, range, safety, chip, damage, meter build. The only thing he is suffering from is lacking movement options. However, for the most part his tools negate the need to worry about that. He is actually the top 5 member I am the least confident about. I could see him switching with Killer Frost in particular.

WOWO - She is the new superman as far as tools and gameplan are concerned. She may not be quite as simple to use, but no other character has the ability to pressure as safely as she does. Mix this with her parry, shield stance anti-zoning, movement options, IADG, etc. And you end up with a character that IMO is better even than the old superman although with a more complex decision tree.

Noteable mentions:
Batman
Nightwing
Green Lantern
Killer Frost

 

[Breaker]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not demeaning him, I've just played so many good SM's on the daily (Theo) that I know what to do in this MU. Plus I play HawkGirl and pre nerf she went even with him and now post nerf she slightly has the edge in that MU (not many people know this). And this is just the top 5 in "my world"....the people who dominate me and why.

Theo just spams online though, you can't play like Superman like he does offline.

 

[Peckapowa]

Top 5: NPO

Batgirl - She has IMO the best vortex in the game edging out MMH due to her increased mixup potential. She can play lame and force you to approach her, while preventing you from zoning her with a teleport. She only has one range where she has a hard time fighting, and most characters do poorly in this range (outside of cartwheel, but close enough to threaten and prevent the teleport/zoning options). She has amazing wake-up options, which lead to her vortex. Builds dumb meter. And does remarkable block damage.

MMH - Great vortex, cannot be zoned, safe vortex starting/launching teleport, good zoning, strong mix-ups. IMO MMH is the clear #1.

Zod - Before the patch he was securely in the top 10 for me. The damage done to Superman and Black Adam gave him room to move up. He is the best space controller in the game. Not in the keepaway/runaway zoning vein, but more in the fact that he can control so much of the screen at a given time. He also has a strong albeit trait based mixup game. Good damage. Good movement. And is generally safe.

Aquaman - Dat trait, water shield, range, safety, chip, damage, meter build. The only thing he is suffering from is lacking movement options. However, for the most part his tools negate the need to worry about that. He is actually the top 5 member I am the least confident about. I could see him switching with Killer Frost in particular.

WOWO - She is the new superman as far as tools and gameplan are concerned. She may not be quite as simple to use, but no other character has the ability to pressure as safely as she does. Mix this with her parry, shield stance anti-zoning, movement options, IADG, etc. And you end up with a character that IMO is better even than the old superman although with a more complex decision tree.

Noteable mentions:
Batman
Nightwing
Green Lantern
Killer Frost

i think superman and black adam are still arguable top 5, both are still op, and supes barely got nerfed... batman got hit harder if you ask me

 

[godlessmode]

i think superman and black adam are still arguable top 5, both are still op, and supes barely got nerfed... batman got hit harder if you ask me

I feel like Superman lost some, maybe a lot of his teeth due to the F2 changes, and the increased recovery on his air laser. In the past he was incredible despite lacking mix-ups due to his control game. He could pressure you from anywhere on the screen, relatively safely, as such the fact that he didn't have any significant 50/50s wasn't a real problem. Now he no longer gets to pressure and control the pacing/distance and now has to respect other characters (the impact at the start of the round is incredibly significant here). This makes his lack of a 50/50 a challenge when it comes to the top 5 consideration. I still think he is top 10 though.

As to Black Adam I feel like he also got gutted. Although I'm less confident about his changes than Superman's. His adjustments seem to in general reduce the number of dominate match-ups in his favor, and in fact may have shifted some critical (top contender) match-ups away from his favor. IMO he was the #1 before the patch, but at this point he feels like he is in the top 10, but not top 5.

I feel like Batman has never really gotten enough momentum/representation yet. His adjustments didn't feel as severe to me as either Supermans or Black Adams. But we don't have any (high quality) Batman players in my area so I can't really comment other than based on match observation.

I don't see either Superman or Black Adam as better than BG, Zod, MMH, or WW for sure. I don't even really see them as being better than AM. I don't see them being better than KF either at this point (even though they don't necessarily have bad MUs against KF).

 

[Peckapowa]

I feel like Superman lost some, maybe a lot of his teeth due to the F2 changes, and the increased recovery on his air laser. In the past he was incredible despite lacking mix-ups due to his control game. He could pressure you from anywhere on the screen, relatively safely, as such the fact that he didn't have any significant 50/50s wasn't a real problem. Now he no longer gets to pressure and control the pacing/distance and now has to respect other characters (the impact at the start of the round is incredibly significant here). This makes his lack of a 50/50 a challenge when it comes to the top 5 consideration. I still think he is top 10 though.

As to Black Adam I feel like he also got gutted. Although I'm less confident about his changes than Superman's. His adjustments seem to in general reduce the number of dominate match-ups in his favor, and in fact may have shifted some critical (top contender) match-ups away from his favor. IMO he was the #1 before the patch, but at this point he feels like he is in the top 10, but not top 5.

I feel like Batman has never really gotten enough momentum/representation yet. His adjustments didn't feel as severe to me as either Supermans or Black Adams. But we don't have any (high quality) Batman players in my area so I can't really comment other than based on match observation.

I don't see either Superman or Black Adam as better than BG, Zod, MMH, or WW for sure. I don't even really see them as being better than AM. I don't see them being better than KF either at this point (even though they don't necessarily have bad MUs against KF).

b23 was a huge nerf along with trait reduction.... i feel worst about those than any of supes, supes f2 is still abusive and cheap, adn the air laser was no biggy, black adams lighting hitbox is kind of big along with trait... they are both still fundamentally amazing, batman depends on his trait and b23, and they both took big hits

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

shocked to see a Nightwing mention on here.

 

[TemperingMoon]

*****************Fraud Alert Level 2000****************

I just received word you just lost to a GL 9-1 w zod

Sir, do not speak on his MUs or placing again.

Good day to you

 

[Smarrgasm]

Theo just spams online though, you can't play like Superman like he does offline.

Im not sure if youre serious, but if you are you realize THEO has won WNF quite a few times and got Top 8 at EVO right?

 

[Sajam]

shocked to see a Nightwing mention on here.

It's because there are pretty few actual good NW players, and people who don't know the matchup or how the character works overrate him.

It's just how things go.

 

[Breaker]

Im not sure if youre serious, but if you are you realize THEO has won WNF quite a few times and got Top 8 at EVO right?

I was specifically referring to online. I know he's Superman is beast offline but online man...damnnn he has no shame.

 

[shaowebb]

Batgirl is stupid good and her vortex is scary but what does she do when she is not in your face besides yolo teleports?

I don't use Batgirl but just from watching tournament streams it seems like she has the same problems as Flash (and I'm not just talking about Zyphox ). I mean if she isn't rushing down and keeping momentum then she is struggling and has to rely on unsafe yolo stuff to get in.

The thing about Batgirl is that a good one wont just Yolo-port. You see when she's not all over you she can dictate the pace of a match vs much of the cast with her projectiles. I'm not gonna attempt to say she is great at zoning, but what she does is force people into a ground approach because they know if they jump vs her they will eat that teleport. This creates a scenario where you can control many opponent's options. Use bolos, batarangs and even the bat evade cancelled into stuff to take apart people's ground approaches. She suffers vs certain types of moves when doing this (low projectiles like swamp hands, trident and similar) but vs many other things she can just force you into foreseeable tactics that she can bait and punish with the port.

In other words...she makes you not jump when she isn't rushing down because you know she'll port and then she waits for you to push a button and ports anyway. Controlling an opponents actions is a pretty great thing to have on deck. It makes her a good character for folks who read players harder than matchups.

 

[Jay Rupp]

It blows me away every time I see a top 5 list without Aquaman. We had like one week right before the patch where everyone talked about him, and now he's going basically forgotten again. There were arguably only two things holding him down before the patch and their names were Black Adam and Superman. That issue has now essentially gone away. His arguable top representative frequently says Aquaman is a top three character even with full recognition of what his weaknesses are in the same breath, so I have to wonder what else people even want before they start respecting the prowess of that character.

I think its because of the changes to his trait. Now we get 3 more seconds of combo damage against him, which is a lot. I believe AM's 3 sec trait nerf is worse than BM's 3 sec trait nerf. All that said, I agree that AM is DEF top 5.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

 

[miloPKL]

Wonder Woman is not top 5 guaranteed.

 

[godlessmode]

Wonder Woman is not top 5 guaranteed.

Compelling argument. Opinions have been changed!

 

[miloPKL]

Compelling argument. Opinions have been changed!

I'm not arguing tho, dummy.

 

[godlessmode]

I'm not arguing tho, dummy.

You entered into a discussion thread then posted a point of view which was different than the popular point of view held in the thread.

ar·gu·ment
ˈärgyəmənt/
noun

1. 1.​
   an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.

Maybe not a "typical" argument, however, since the popular opinion in this thread diverges from what you posted I would say you are in fact arguing.


Dummy.

 

[miloPKL]

But I didnt make an exchange. I only deposited. But you and me meta arguing has become an argument. The more you know.


edit: Dummy.

 

[Qwark28]

The thing about Batgirl is that a good one wont just Yolo-port. You see when she's not all over you she can dictate the pace of a match vs much of the cast with her projectiles. I'm not gonna attempt to say she is great at zoning, but what she does is force people into a ground approach because they know if they jump vs her they will eat that teleport. This creates a scenario where you can control many opponent's options. Use bolos, batarangs and even the bat evade cancelled into stuff to take apart people's ground approaches. She suffers vs certain types of moves when doing this (low projectiles like swamp hands, trident and similar) but vs many other things she can just force you into foreseeable tactics that she can bait and punish with the port.

In other words...she makes you not jump when she isn't rushing down because you know she'll port and then she waits for you to push a button and ports anyway. Controlling an opponents actions is a pretty great thing to have on deck. It makes her a good character for folks who read players harder than matchups.

I hate bola vs joker. i actually have to get in on that bitch.

 

[Rude]

I hate bola vs joker. i actually have to get in on that bitch.

Joker can shoot her during Bola's start-up, I believe.

 

[godlessmode]

Joker can shoot her during Bola's start-up, I believe.

Not on reaction. If you read that wrong and she TP's the risk/reward is heavily in her favor.

 

[Qwark28]

Joker can shoot her during Bola's start-up, I believe.

8% vs vortex if she teles. no thanks

 

[Gruff757]

Damn all this Grundy talk lol. I wanna play a good Grundy! The ones I play make me sad

I wasnt that bad when we played

 

[TarkatanDentist]

8% vs vortex if she teles. no thanks

Quite a few characters have that problem, actually. Bolas are, on paper, total crap beyond their awesome reward. But the threat of that vortex, combined with her other tools, means that taking a risk to try and get her when she tries it just isn't worth it.

Though Joker's Bang! on reaction could work, if you have lightning fast reflexes.