Match-up Discussion Nightwing Match-Up Discussion (1.06 and on)

[RYX]

It's a legitimate question friend, no need to be so defensive.

Most professional theory fighters tend to have never thrown the game in their disk drive.

MU discussion is theory fighting

 

[Doombawkz]

Doombawkz

silly kid trying to cover your tracks with stealth edits.

Flying Grayson or ground spark or even forward jump 1 beats backdash after the charge.

WE can check you on knockdown because NW does have knockdowns that make Bane fly across the screen which doesn't help AT ALL in most MUs but helps in this one because Bane has limited advancing specials on wakeup that can't be "safe" or advantage without the proper resources.

I edited the picture instead of leaving it as a link... but ok.

Flying greyson? Enjoy your free 30% into oki from us. Fresh baked daily. As far as the "backdash" that's staff spin on your wake-up, I.E. the only viable wake-up you actually have in this Mu. We bait that with a backdash. Everything else we can just body press since your mobility is Ares tier in staff stance.

You can't check us on knockdown. Bane? Bane can check you all day in escrima and can just bob-weave through your staff stance if not just n.j.splash you. The meaning of "checking" someone means that you put out a move that, if they recklessly respond, will get them stuffed. Nightwing can't check Bane. He can knock Bane away, sure, but Bane has no trouble navigating sparks.

You have wing dings. Outside of wing dings, you are a worse Batman with no mobility or bats.

 

[Doombawkz]

dammit Doombawkz its Dicks not dicks

Rushdown NW is only viable outside of Venom. Bane is just too slow to reliably and safetly avoid NW's frame traps without meter and he can really wreck Nightwing on the juice.

HOWEVER, what I focus is that Venom will run out eventually, and when that happens its kinda easy to reverse the situation.

Good luck opening guy who still has access to push block and MB b.3 along with much farther reaching normal in a matter of 4 seconds before he juices again.

Flash can't do it reliably, Grundy can't even do it point blank, I don't see how you think the character with absolutely no low starters and long combos with low-damage increments is going to do it.

 

[Sajam]

MU discussion is theory fighting

Oh I definitely understand.

There is just a completely ridiculous level of, "Oh yeah with super awesome reaction speed I can stuff every single option every conceived with X" that only certain people get to.

 

[RYX]

Good luck opening guy who still has access to push block and MB b.3 along with much farther reaching normal in a matter of 4 seconds before he juices again.

Flash can't do it reliably, Grundy can't even do it point blank, I don't see how you think the character with absolutely no low starters and long combos with low-damage increments is going to do it.

Nightwing doesn't have low damage man

Oh I definitely understand.

There is just a completely ridiculous level of, "Oh yeah with super awesome reaction speed I can stuff every single option every conceived with X" that only certain people get to.

It's NW's favor for sure but like all characters he's going to lose a lot of health off of one knockdown. It's practically guaranteed if you're caught in Escrima because at least Staff has a viable wake up, lol

 

[Doombawkz]

Oh I definitely understand.

There is just a completely ridiculous level of, "Oh yeah with super awesome reaction speed I can stuff every single option every conceived with X" that only certain people get to.

To be fair, RYX didn't believe me when I told him about the Grundy MU either.
And then... well... Dead sea's worth of salt were spilled once he realized he indeed is slower than debuff 3 Bane

 

[Doombawkz]

Nightwing doesn't have low damage man



It's NW's favor for sure but like all characters he's going to lose a lot of health off of one knockdown. It's practically guaranteed if you're caught in Escrima because at least Staff has a viable wake up, lol

Low damage increments. Every move he does adds up, yes, but it does so over a lot of extended animation low damage juggle attacks.

Like if he doesn't catch us at the beginning of level 3 cooldown, he isn't going to finish his string before we can venom up again.
Basically he has a short window to open us up without a low starter, and do all the damage he can. He isn't going to get the maximized damage when his basic juggle tools take a full second to finish per attack.

 

[RYX]

To be fair, RYX didn't believe me when I told him about the Grundy MU either.
And then... well... Dead sea's worth of salt were spilled once he realized he indeed is slower than debuff 3 Bane

To be fair my Grundy is awful and I don't understand what space control is

random MB cleaver says what

 

[GuamoKun]

Doombawkz I will concede that Venom Bane is scary but pushblock and mb b3 isn't a Bane specific tool.

I don't have much experience with reliable Banes and the "highest level" Bane I played was EGP Wonder_Chef's Bane once offline.
So I have to resort to using Theory Fighting mostly with some few MU knowledge at this point but this is what I'm basing it on.

 

[Sajam]

Nightwing doesn't have low damage man



It's NW's favor for sure but like all characters he's going to lose a lot of health off of one knockdown. It's practically guaranteed if you're caught in Escrima because at least Staff has a viable wake up, lol

Yeah, NW struggles when he's knocked down, and that's not even exclusive to Bane.

Staff wakeups are also way easier to bait then people think too. The interesting thing about the NW/Bane matchup is that if Bane tries to armor through flying grayson he will either beat it clean, or NW will fly through him. Staff spin can also be stuffed if you do the armor early enough, but letting it whiff is probably a better option.

 

[Doombawkz]

Doombawkz I will concede that Venom Bane is scary but pushblock and mb b3 isn't a Bane specific tool.

I don't have much experience with reliable Banes and the "highest level" Bane I played was EGP Wonder_Chef's Bane once offline.
So I have to resort to using Theory Fighting mostly with some few MU knowledge at this point but this is what I'm basing it on.

We can double punch through staff spin.
So you don't even have that on wake-up...

:|
And yes, puchblock and MB b.3 aren't character specific, but when all I have to do is block high and I get to shave 1 second off of an already short timer, it becomes an asset that I don't need to drop meter on anything otherwise.

 

[Sajam]

Low damage increments. Every move he does adds up, yes, but it does so over a lot of extended animation low damage juggle attacks.

Like if he doesn't catch us at the beginning of level 3 cooldown, he isn't going to finish his string before we can venom up again.
Basically he has a short window to open us up without a low starter, and do all the damage he can. He isn't going to get the maximized damage when his basic juggle tools take a full second to finish per attack.

If he gets a hit when Bane's lvl 3 he can choose to move away after.

Like instead of ending with a b2 setup, he can let the ground spark go/dash cancel backwards and give Bane space for the short time lvl 3 venom has left. It's just being aware of something like that instead of walking into wakeups which is easy to do in the heat of the moment.

 

[RYX]

Yeah, NW struggles when he's knocked down, and that's not even exclusive to Bane.

Staff wakeups are also way easier to bait then people think too. The interesting thing about the NW/Bane matchup is that if Bane tries to armor through flying grayson he will either beat it clean, or NW will fly through him. Staff spin can also be stuffed if you do the armor early enough, but letting it whiff is probably a better option.

Yeah I know, but bad wake ups vs the best oki machine ever created, damn son.

I dunno, what do you think overall about the MU?

 

[Doombawkz]

We don't even need armor to beat either option. Standing 2 after BP beats every wake-up he has in staff.

 

[Sajam]

Yeah I know, but bad wake ups vs the best oki machine ever created, damn son.

I dunno, what do you think overall about the MU?

NW does fine in neutral, and probably wins, but he has to react/read well when he's on his back.

NW also has all the tools in the world to open people up, and Bane has to respect them when in debuff. The matchup is probably slightly in NW's favor or even. The neutral game is hard for Bane, but his knockdown is worth earning.

 

[Sajam]

We don't even need armor to beat either option. Standing 2 after BP beats every wake-up he has in staff.

Well NW also has pretty good damage and has tons of ways to open people up so that they can't just block high.

 

[RYX]

We don't even need armor to beat either option. Standing 2 after BP beats every wake-up he has in staff.

I love how we never need armor anymore. We can just use a neglected normal and stop everything

 

[Doombawkz]

Well NW also has pretty good damage and has tons of ways to open people up so that they can't just block high.

I'm sure he does. From full screen. Where his mobility is not good enough to catch us and his only options are lows.
Or when he is up close, where his only options we can't just Mb b.3 through are highs, and everything else has monster start-up.

I love how we never need armor anymore. We can just use a neglected normal and stop everything

Video is coming.

 

[GGA Max]

I don't have MUCH MU knowledge but this is what I can kinda make out of it.

Staff spin beats armor on stuff

-The timing is not hard to stick an armored bf2 between your first and second hits, but I think it doesn't cover your flying grayson, so Bane has to run at you on wake-up to cover both bases (in your staff stance), but this isn't that great of pressure due to spacing after knockdowns and timing and crap

Stand 1 can check Bane after a blocked charge...

-Yeah, that's cool, Bane will have to hold that one, but Bane is not very afraid of nightwing pressure because once he blocks something, he needs like 1 frame to start an armored attack.

Ground Blast can check him really well on knockdown...and wakeup charge is slow so it can be reacted to and blocked even after a ground spark to check him, but depends on the distance most of the time.

-Sounds like a draw

Escrima mobility is kinda good against Bane and you can kinda zone him but Venom is always so annoying so you have to watch out for charge and how it ignores projectile.

-Yeah, wing dings are definately OP in this match-up, I'm not even sure the best way to punish them on block, so I just dash under NW.. get blown up for it sometimes

Venom cooldown is easy to capitalize with NW in both stances me thinks. You can be aggressive with zoning in both stances since Bane's mobility becomes TURRIBLE and has no projectile invincibility and the increased damage on chip and on hit helps NW.

-no opinion, the only nightwing I play does ground spark or something while im on cooldown

However one of the best things that helps in this MU is that NW's escrima normals help because Bane is so slow and cant really escape from pressure outside of armoring things with venom but NW can kinda avoid Bane once that happens.
But NW can then pressure the isht out of Bane because NW's normals will actually hit like d12 and b112 and his crossup flipkick stuff because Bane is so big and slow. These are the talking points I can come up with.

-Haven't studied his normals really but in principle, bane is king up close unless you have like Batgirl's stupid cartwheel.

I'm not good at theory crap, and honestly it feels a bit in NW's favor as long as he can abuse his mobility and wingdings and flipkick on wakeup... I don't know this match up perfectly because I dont think NW is cheap, so I never did significant study. Here's a match I fought with @hruza_da_bruza was very close... He's definitely a high level NW.

 

[Sajam]

I'm sure he does. From full screen. Where his mobility is not good enough to catch us and his only options are lows.
Or when he is up close, where his only options we can't just Mb b.3 through are highs, and everything else has monster start-up.

Uh, his damage has nothing to do with pound/spark. His only options up close are definitely not highs you can mb b3 either. If a NW player is letting you do that then he doesn't know the character that well.

 

[Doombawkz]

Nightwing can't flip kick on wake-up. DP blows up his escrima wake-ups for free.
Standing 2 blows up his wake-ups like b.1 blows up batgirl's wake-ups (cartwheel and bomb included).

Stuff and junk

 

[Doombawkz]

Uh, his damage has nothing to do with pound/spark. His only options up close are definitely not highs you can mb b3 either. If a NW player is letting you do that then he doesn't know the character that well.

Yes, but Bane is going to probably boot you full-screen if not simply escape there himself when you do it.
From that distance, what do you have to "open us up"?

And as far as up close, in staff we can pushblock and pretty much any kind of jump-in we can Mb b.3. You'd be surprised what it blows up.

 

[GuamoKun]

Maxintensity25 nice feedback. I'll edit your post to make it easier to read your responses and junk but yeah you seem to have a grasp on the NW MU but WingDings on block aren't safe at all it might be weird to punish for some characters but at the very least you can gain momentum. but then thats when MB wingdings comes in but you can armor through it if you have the resources which is why NW shouldn't really try to be as aggressive on a Venom Bane.

 

[Sajam]

Yes, but Bane is going to probably boot you full-screen if not simply escape there himself when you do it.
From that distance, what do you have to "open us up"?

And as far as up close, in staff we can pushblock and pretty much any kind of jump-in we can Mb b.3. You'd be surprised what it blows up.

You underestimate ground spark cancels, and his ability to close distance. NW's neutral in general is stronger than most give it credit for, because most haven't played a NW who understand his uptions. Of course from full screen his options are lows or wing dings, and that's fine.

Most NRS players don't know how to deal with grapplers though, so that might be why it seems like Bane dominates a character like NW. I'm 100% fine with people pushblocking staff, and he shouldn't be jumping anyway. His jump normals in escrima aren't good outside of setups, and if you are doing it to staff normals then he jumped at an awful distance.

 

[Doombawkz]

You underestimate ground spark cancels, and his ability to close distance. NW's neutral in general is stronger than most give it credit for, because most haven't played a NW who understand his uptions. Of course from full screen his options are lows or wing dings, and that's fine.

Most NRS players don't know how to deal with grapplers though, so that might be why it seems like Bane dominates a character like NW. I'm 100% fine with people pushblocking staff, and he shouldn't be jumping anyway. His jump normals in escrima aren't good outside of setups, and if you are doing it to staff normals then he jumped at an awful distance.

I never said Bane dominated Nightwing. Up close, yes. Bane dominates Nightwing openly.
Even still I say its 6-4 NW just because of wing dings and nothing else.