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Match-up Discussion Nightwing Match-Up Discussion (1.06 and on)

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
Superman now can't shoot lasers fullscreen without losing the trade against Nightwing. That's huge.
Yup.

What sucks is that mb ground blast can't be used to punish air lasers like Aquaman. That's the only downside for us.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Yup.

What sucks is that mb ground blast can't be used to punish air lasers like Aquaman. That's the only downside for us.

Yep, but full screen we wouldn't be able to follow it up with anything other than another pound anyways.

Still, when the trade is essentialy 5% for 2% in our favour, it should make them stop throwing them out.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
How so?
You mean a regular blocked laser forces Superman to block or does it have to whiff?

You can punish it now unless they do it as low as possible...and then you can hop over them.

3 quarter screen in it is punishable no matter how low.
 

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
Yup, it's a punish if he doesn't MB, just like Aqua.

I'm gonna try and get Theo/Slayer to play with me at WNF tomorrow and let you guys know how the matchup feels.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Yup, it's a punish if he doesn't MB, just like Aqua.

I'm gonna try and get Theo/Slayer to play with me at WNF tomorrow and let you guys know how the matchup feels.

Playing online I can tell you it felt A LOT better. But those people are no where near Theo/Slayer's level lol
 
Superman is easier to deal with, but Ares is still a problem for me, along with Batgirl

For Batgirl just stay outside of her b1 range with staff. If she does get in push block and start from that range again. Don't play full screen because its almost impossible to zone her. Don't play stay too close to her or your going to geting mixed up all day.
 

Wasted

Noob
When I record the dummy to block after ground lasers, they can still block reversal ground pound.

Same when you set AI to reversal.

The frame data lies once again, NW/Supes still sucks.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
When I record the dummy to block after ground lasers, they can still block reversal ground pound.

Same when you set AI to reversal.

The frame data lies once again, NW/Supes still sucks.

I was just in the lab earlier and the only way I couldn't punish supes was when he was full screen and did them as low as possible. Any other heights and I was getting the punish.

3 Quarter screen you can get him no matter how low. Anything closer and you can take 13% with a Grayson.
 

GuamoKun

I Break Hearts, Not Combos
Alright so I might be able to shed some light on the Catwoman matchup.

I mostly fight Krayzie a bunch offline and sometimes I fight KH StarCharger online.

This is mostly pre-patch stuff but what I noticed is that:

1: At the beginning of the match, Catwoman's options to avoid Nightwing's b2 are jumping, evade, or a well timed backdash. However, She can't really beat out wingdings outside of doing a j2 (whip) up whip or regular whip if the wingdings are done low enough so that NW can't avoid it. The grounded whip options aren't used too much since b2 will beat it since it is faster than 19 frame regular whip, and up whip will not hit NW.

2: Catwoman's j2 is similar to GL's rocket in the fact that it controls the same area of space but Catwoman gets a full combo when it hits and doesn't stay as airborne. So that being said, since NW has mediocre anti air options, this jump in attack is really strong unless you anticipate it at close range with an instant j3/j1 to aa Catwoman as she tries to do the attack.

3: Her low hitbox in general can be annoying since her b3 goes under so many things which makes it difficult to reliable keep her pinned down, ducking can avoid standing 1 in staff stance, and her strings give her some nice pushback which make it difficult to reestablish momentum since NW's longer ranged normals are on the slow side. However, NW can now follow up stuff in staff stance, giving him an edge in rushdown when he gets in, as compared to Catwoman who relies on ambigious setups and kitty tricks to get stuff after a knockdown.

4: Zoning her from full screen is a good idea as long as she doesn't have meter. She might be able to dodge projectiles easier because of her evade buff but this is similar to making GL whiff air rockets to bait a reaction out of him, in this case Catwoman's catdash. Even though her dash received an additional hit of armor, NW has some options in both stances to blow it up. Escrima has wingdings which hit 3 times, breaking her armor, his 112/3 which hit really quickly but sometimes will lose to the dash, and staff spin in staff stance. That being said, try to zone from distances where catdash will whiff and make the MB version towards the end so you have some time to try to beat out its 2 hit armor. However, wingdings shouldn't be used as a main zoning tool because it can be punished by catdash if timed correctly.

5: Allowing her to pressure you is scary since she has extremely good 50/50s with her low and overhead combo starters. However, if you block correctly it effectively ends her pressure game unless you get greedy and try to grab the cat by the tail for a lack of better words. Since it is easy to block NW in staff stance but you're at +frames for a long time as long as you have meter you can keep up pressure, giving you some chances to perform actual mixups with utilizing the +frames of staff to go to escrima mixups

IMO this can be a 5-5 but can be debated to be in CW's favor slightly but not toooooo much. The MB staff spin buff did help.

This is all I can write up with my limited experience at this point.

tl;dr
-Nightwing does alright in the beginning in the matchup.
-Catwoman's strings while not at advantage are hard for NW to capitalize on sans meter because of how small she is and the pushback.
-Zoning is what can help you shift momentum
-Staff Stance will be a bit more utilized since MB will not whiff but its harder to avoid CW so this MU is an Escrima one
-NW wins pressure game. CW wins on the knockdown game. Corner game is equally dangerous for both.

EDIT:
because of Sajam 's video, I am convinced that NW staff is whats good for this.

oh and GGA 16 Bit look we are discussing MU substance instead of numbers! Can we get e-points?
 

Wasted

Noob
Probably already known but Supes can no longer use his Super to punish normal staff spin -> Stance cancel to Escrima on block.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
I don't even use Escrima vs Catwoman unless I am trying to keep her out with dings. the value of Nw's J2 in staff is too much in the matchup.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Could it be that Lobo is now an even or a losing MU?

I haven't played one yet, but after I saw the buffs I was thinking that it may end up being a bad matchup for us. He gets the Grundy treatment. Outdamages the piss out of you and has an insane ammount of armor on advancing normals.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Us Banes have it 4-6 your favour. Do you find this... agreeable?
We used to have it as 3-7, but now with f.2.d.3 in the neutral and our Mb VU being able to clip you out of the sky it feels easier. Thanks to the recovery dump they did on the moves, we also get good advantage for landing them. We're also able to basically eliminate your escrima wake-up completely using MB VU soooo....

4-6 your favour, yeah? Wing Dings (A.K.A. flying dicks) are still stupid lol
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Us Banes have it 4-6 your favour. Do you find this... agreeable?
We used to have it as 3-7, but now with f.2.d.3 in the neutral and our Mb VU being able to clip you out of the sky it feels easier. Thanks to the recovery dump they did on the moves, we also get good advantage for landing them. We're also able to basically eliminate your escrima wake-up completely using MB VU soooo....

4-6 your favour, yeah? Wing Dings (A.K.A. flying dicks) are still stupid lol

Between the dings, and the Staff spin, you're going to have a bad time. Bi Polar can suck it tho... lol
 

14K

Noob
Could it be that Lobo is now an even or a losing MU?
I believe is got a lot more complicated, truth the one i fought was only decent but my view on what i noticed was pretty straight foward:

gotta respect his wakeup now, i mean there isnt really much you can do here...
Nuke Shells got a really big improvement, NW is on tin ice on this one... you really need to pick how you approch him when nukes are loaded, cause if you take the first one in the face... dear god help you cause you will take a so much damage you will want to stay back..
also found that going face to face with him is not great in escrima not great at all, while escrima you really need to pick how you get in if you can get in at all... in staff it gets a bit easier in my opinion, atleast i just felt more confrotable that way.

also if Windings and proper zooning are great, its only best to keep him out to the best of your ability untill you get your window cause if, god forbid, you get hit by a stray atack, get ready to eat 40 to 60% each time...

My strategy against him so far has been composed of wingings if he tries to dash in and fulll screen grounsparks (if blocked Stance change frame trap) when i do get an opening for a combo i usually dont stay around for the wakeup ( if in staff, i finish if the combo with FG to get them away from me or Staff Spin stance cancel back dash) (escrima i try my best to get the B2 setups or i found that the Escrima fury staff cancel into ground Blast MB combo works fine to get some dfistance to end the combo in FG)

if i play the guy again (friend of a guy i play very often) i will report more ways to get around this newly buffed Lobo

Lobo so far is proving very good and def a candidate for a top place in the charts... better get familier with the match up cause its gonna be more frequent... just saying...

hope this proves helpfull, anything else just hit me up ill help with what i can.
 

AssassiN

Noob
I haven't played one yet, but after I saw the buffs I was thinking that it may end up being a bad matchup for us. He gets the Grundy treatment. Outdamages the piss out of you and has an insane ammount of armor on advancing normals.

Played a couple of matches against a Lobo today and it just felt like a struggle.
His shotgun loaded with trait and MB does 28%, which is unclashable...
I think Lobo can do close to 40% unclashable damage with his trait loaded.
 

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
I don't even use Escrima vs Catwoman unless I am trying to keep her out with dings. the value of Nw's J2 in staff is too much in the matchup.
Nj2 in staff is my go to against Catwoman.

Also, I ran sets about a month or so ago with Cage Redfield in the Lobo matchup. Lobo struggled to advance against staff wing, but with the new changes things are gonna be interesting. Him and I are going to be running sets soonish, so I'll post the video/write up here once I have.
 

14K

Noob
Nj2 in staff is my go to against Catwoman.

Also, I ran sets about a month or so ago with Cage Redfield in the Lobo matchup. Lobo struggled to advance against staff wing, but with the new changes things are gonna be interesting. Him and I are going to be running sets soonish, so I'll post the video/write up here once I have.
i think this just got very problematic... until we end up dealing with his new tools and even then i will give it a 6-4 in Lobos favor
 

AssassiN

Noob
What I can tell so far is that when Lobo has his trait loaded, you should stop using Wing Dings or any projectile for that matter or you'll eat it.
It has so much range and it shoots you right out of the air.
 

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
I'm not gonna call it in Lobo's favor yet. Without meter he still won't have an easy way in, and NW's d1 absolutely demolishes him up close. Once you become familiar with his strings and throw setups, fighting Lobo becomes much easier.

The biggest problem I had was dealing with low chain/stand 3/hook charge footsie options, and obviously his big damage. Like I said, I'll post a video/write up soon. Today I'll be at WNF seeing how Supes/NW is against a high level Supes, and hoping I don't run into him at tournament :D