Match-up Discussion RiBBz22's Killer Frost Matchup Chart [Updated: 10/10/13]

[Rickyraws]

I'm fine fighting her on batcave, BUT.. at the highest level you cannot base MU number on your exp mainly playing on one stage. This is what MOST (not all) KF players do.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was insinuating.

Blocked sweeps also give WoWo enough pushback that none of KFs normals can reach her. So even D1 is in perfect range for a B113 whiff punish

What about jumping? Backdashing and punishing on whiff? Could have sworn I've done one or the other...I play WW so I would use d3 after a blocked slide myself, but it's been while since I've done any testing

 

[Clark L.]

I've always had it as a bad MU for her but I think the nerfs change things a bit and make it closer to even. Her parry is still just as good as it has always been, she has solid punish options now and 50-50's on blocked dive kick, and the nerfs to lightning is a pretty important change that opens things up a lot more for Frost in this MU now since that hurts his ability to check her full screen and prolong his runaway. Do you not think the MU has changed much?

No I dont think its changed drastically, the free runaway was nice to abuse but I still can run away, I know I was divekicking without mb but that's just dumb play on my part, put I still think at best its 6-4 ba

 

[xKhaoTik]

No I dont think its changed drastically, the free runaway was nice to abuse but I still can run away, I know I was divekicking without mb but that's just dumb play on my part, put I still think at best its 6-4 ba

Na.

Two things changed in the MU and those changes are HUGE.

1. BOTH versions of lightning can now be jumped AND punished anywhere on the screen (although its much easier doing this to MB lightning). Pre-Patched, this was giving her hella problems. She basically had to eat damage to get in. This is no longer the case.

2. KF can now sit on a life lead. Pre-patched, even when she had a life lead, she had no choice but to go in, giving up her defenses. This is no longer the case.


Another big, but not huge change is the fact that any dive kick that isn't done from max distance actually gets punished now, and a dive kick from max distance gives us a 50/50.

Like I've been saying, BA's core gameplay is still the same, and the BA MU is still the same. KF just has better options now, and those options are good enough to make it at least 5-5.

 

[@MylesWright_]

For any player that baits the lasso spin wakeup by walking away, they open themselves up to her lasso grab which leaves her +14.
But thats just a part of the wakeup game. WoWo hits alot harder on KFs knockdown than KF can on WoWos.

KFs only way in is by sliding, and when thats blocked WoWo always gets a free D3 to check her, and getting hit by her D3 you may aswell put the pad down most of the time lol. Her MB F3 after the slide will whiff if WoWo mashes D3.

Even then, she isnt actually able to get a MB F3 out after the slide is blocked because the sweep comes out before she can even begin it. If WoWo ducks the F3 she gets a full combo punish.

KF doesn't need to slide to get in, and WW isn't keeping her away
Unless WW has more options then KF after a blocked d3 which is -12 or something I have on idea what your talking about

 

[xKhaoTik]

KF doesn't need to slide to get in, and WW isn't keeping her away
Unless WW has more options then KF after a blocked d3 which is -12 or something I have on idea what your talking about

ARE YOU DEFENDING KF!?!?

 

[@MylesWright_]

ARE YOU DEFENDING KF!?!?

Absolutely not.
The matchup is not 5-5 its 7-3 WW

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

KF doesn't need to slide to get in, and WW isn't keeping her away
Unless WW has more options then KF after a blocked d3 which is -12 or something I have on idea what your talking about

Sweep is -6 and unpunishable to everybody in the cast.
I dont think you do lol

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I think AK Pig Of The Hut has a point. This match could be in Zod's favor in the foreseeable future.

When you get mopped up tonight, perhaps you will agree.

Beware making plans w ribbz

He will dodge u

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

That won't mean too much if he plays run away frost vs Zod. Thats where Zod KILLS her. It may take time for him to get a feel for the MU, or any KF for that matter, before we start thinking Zod wins.

IMO its 5-5 at worst, but it is possibly 6-4 Zod. Time will tell..

Yes this us basically how I feel

 

[Clark L.]

Na.

Two things changed in the MU and those changes are HUGE.

1. BOTH versions of lightning can now be jumped AND punished anywhere on the screen (although its much easier doing this to MB lightning). Pre-Patched, this was giving her hella problems. She basically had to eat damage to get in. This is no longer the case.

2. KF can now sit on a life lead. Pre-patched, even when she had a life lead, she had no choice but to go in, giving up her defenses. This is no longer the case.


Another big, but not huge change is the fact that any dive kick that isn't done from max distance actually gets punished now, and a dive kick from max distance gives us a 50/50.

Like I've been saying, BA's core gameplay is still the same, and the BA MU is still the same. KF just has better options now, and those options are good enough to make it at least 5-5.

Dude, BA's damage is still retarded, he pretty much negates her wakeup slide off knockdown because jb2 into full combo almost depleting 1/2 a lifebar

 

[@MylesWright_]

Sweep is -6 and unpunishable to everybody in the cast.
I dont think you do lol

A -6 sweep sounds preety ridiculous lol
But even then a character dominating the non-existant 'post slide game' which should actually be called slide in and block is hardly reason for the matchup to be bad

 

[ApocaLips]

Also, KF players need to stop basing MU numbers on batcave only lol.

I have yet to fight a KF where 80% of the matches were not spent on batcave which they picked, rather than double random.

I argued this strongly a while ago. KF can't afford to completely ignore stage disadvantages, even in the current version. She's one of the weakest when it comes to interactables, which is a major part of the game. It definitely affects things.

Falls on deaf ears unfortunately.

I also agree that Aquaman is 5-5. That 9 frame low string B12~ex trident rush screws up too much of her game for this MU to be in her favor. It screws up her post-slide game badly because she can't d1 his low option and it drains her much-needed meter. She also has trouble IADing in against a sharp Aquaman due to his d2. I haven't seen a good reason for why she beats him mentioned yet besides Khaotik citing his sets, which I agree with you and m2dave isn't necessarily evidence of the MU at this early stage of the game.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Dude, BA's damage is still retarded, he pretty much negates her wakeup slide off knockdown because jb2 into full combo almost depleting 1/2 a lifebar

So? That doesn't change how big the nerfs hurt Black Adam in this MU.

 

[Clark L.]

So? That doesn't change how big the nerfs hurt Black Adam in this MU.

It just doesnt feel even, his nerfs imo aren't thattttt bad, her options are better, I just cant say it's even:/

 

[Rickyraws]

KF doesn't need to slide to get in, and WW isn't keeping her away
Unless WW has more options then KF after a blocked d3 which is -12 or something I have on idea what your talking about

The pushback makes it unpunishable, however you can dash in and if they do another d3 that's another story. Why not test the things first before dismissing or confirming? In theory MMH's teleport prior to the patch should have been punishable by the whole cast. Flash's lightning kick should be punishable by a lot more that can right now. It's the pushback and other properties that can be found by simply trying it out yourself.

Even with this, though, I don't see how it makes the match advantage WW.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

The pushback makes it unpunishable, however you can dash in and if they do another d3 that's another story. Why not test the things first before dismissing or confirming? In theory MMH's teleport prior to the patch should have been punishable by the whole cast. Flash's lightning kick should be punishable by a lot more that can right now. It's the pushback and other properties that can be found by simply trying it out yourself.

Even with this, though, I don't see how it makes the match advantage WW.

There is no dashing in after D3, if the WoWo is just mashing sweeps you'll get caught in the middle of your next dash.

1. You have NO post slide game what so ever
2. You have NO zoning game what so ever
3. Your reach is like twice as short on launching normals, and WWs B2 must be at least 3 or 4x reach
4. Your jump sucks ass and WoWos anti air is amazing.
5. Your only way in is slide.
6. MB F3 < D3. D3 avoids or stops the MB F3, if it avoids it, WoWo gets a full combo punish starting with B113 for free.

 

[M2Dave]

Beware making plans w ribbz

He will dodge u

There's nowhere to hide!

 

[16 Bit]

Why would you have no post slide game? If the WW is content to just do d+3 checks after each blocked slide then KF keeps blocking low and it's a wash. I can think of worse situations to be in.

 

[ApocaLips]

Why would you have no post slide game? If the WW is content to just do d+3 checks after each blocked slide then KF keeps blocking low and it's a wash. I can think of worse situations to be in.

It's not anywhere near as bad as he says. My responses here: http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/wowo-vs-kfs-slide.38633/.

She has options, arguably more than vs. Aquaman who is probably 5-5.

 

[Qwark28]

Dude, BA's damage is still retarded, he pretty much negates her wakeup slide off knockdown because jb2 into full combo almost depleting 1/2 a lifebar

did you really just call 46% with trait retarded when everyone in the game can do about 40% average bnbs?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Why would you have no post slide game? If the WW is content to just do d+3 checks after each blocked slide then KF keeps blocking low and it's a wash. I can think of worse situations to be in.

Worst case scenario is the D3 hits or causes a MB F3 to whiff, best case is the frost player backdashes.
Obviously the backdash can be punished relatively easily on a read, but its not neccessary to attempt it cause KF has no way to punish the sweep without pissing meter away on MB B3s.

It's not as if WoWo can only do a single sweep, she can mash them out repeatedly because of the range KF lacks, and the pushback the move has.

 

[Clark L.]

did you really just call 46% with trait retarded when everyone in the game can do about 40% average bnbs?

No more downplaying! Lol he still gets 48-49% and extra combos now because you can b3 black magic for even more damage

 

[Qwark28]

No more downplaying! Lol he still gets 48-49% and extra combos now because you can b3 black magic for even more damage

1-3% more for one more bar. awesome.

no downplaying here. if you think 48% for a bar and trait is good when he needs his trait so much more now then idk what to say.

 

[16 Bit]

Worst case scenario is the D3 hits or causes a MB F3 to whiff, best case is the frost player backdashes.
Obviously the backdash can be punished relatively easily on a read, but its not neccessary to attempt it cause KF has no way to punish the sweep without pissing meter away on MB B3s.

It's not as if WoWo can only do a single sweep, she can mash them out repeatedly because of the range KF lacks, and the pushback the move has.

I still don't get it. KF gets to walk around WW's range and check her with slide and in the post slide guessing game you're going to just sweep all the time and this is supposed to be bad for KF? I don't know why I'd care. I'd actually prefer to not to play any post slide guessing game and keep it a wash like that. unless I needed to make a big comeback I suppose.

 

[ApocaLips]

Again, slide beats 'lol mash sweep.' Moving to a different thread isn't going to make that option go away.