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Strategy I Bring You the Gift of Pain - Patch 1.06 Discussion

TONY-T

Mad scientist
At this point, i don't really know what to say about his changes. I guess ill make my final judgement after the patch gets released.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Well imo trait cannot possibly be more useless than it was before so if it has any use at all post patch that will be a slight buff. Also they buffed or super and most of our hardest matchup characters got nerfs so why is everyone freaking out that we are now low tier?

I don't get it
 

Vagrant

Champion
You mean those things that lead to low-to-middling damage and will potentially get you comboed for far more than you can do? Those hard knockdowns? Yeah. Terrifying.

You have no idea what your talking about. And this is proof. Because If you knew anything about this game or character whatsoever you would know that almost every single combo DS has, including his damaging bnbs, ends in a hard knockdown (sword flip).

Stop. Just stop.

Stop spreading misinformation and downplaying this character. You don't know what your talking about and i'm sorry to be a dick here man but it's obvious you don't play the game at a high enough level to act like a spokesperson for this character. Your confusing newcomers who want to pick up the character by saying he's bad when he isn't and it's really starting to fucking piss me off.
 

Vagrant

Champion
Well imo trait cannot possibly be more useless than it was before so if it has any use at all post patch that will be a slight buff. Also they buffed or super and most of our hardest matchup characters got nerfs so why is everyone freaking out that we are now low tier?

I don't get it


Trait was virtually useless outside of a few gimmicks before. It will now be viable in a match and will only help DS. Along with nerfs to the top helping DS as well. This is why when people say he's low tier now because of the patch I have to resist the urge to vomit.
 

Vagrant

Champion
A lot of DS players would jump the ship if he dropped any lower on the list..
At this point I honestly hope everyone except you and a select few other DS players DOES drop him. At least the downplaying and misinformation being spread around will stop.
 

G4S Silent Jay

I enjoy hurting you.
Anyone check to see how much use we'll actually get out of trait?

Thing to remember is they doubled the coodown while giving us almost half as much time to take advantage of it.


We can actually still do testing on how much we can get off it now. Just realize about half-way through having trait, and through the rest of the cool-down, there are no more functioning bullets. I'm just not sure if this will give us enough time to take any advantage of the trait even if the bullet damage isn't lowered too much (132 string will probably do slightly less damage too).


Just reading how the trait got one buff which was compensated by 3 nerfs is kind of unsettling, and makes me honestly feel less tempted to use that button. But other than that, I like the general F3 buff since most of my meter is either going into MB guns or MB F3. Although I feel it will also hurt us more in the KF MU....

Still bummed to see that MB Sword Spin is still full-combo punishable. But I guess I'm the only one who really would have liked to seen that be safe on block (like, still negative, just not eating a full combo negative) especially since it only gets a real combo in the corner.

All-in-all, We got some slight possibly insignificant buffs (because who the hell actually uses super...?) and what it's really gonna come down to is to see how any buffs/nerfs affect our MUs in the long-run.

I'm not jumping ship... But I'm definitely gonna start working on getting my secondary up to par for torunaments...
 

Mikman360

Not the Milkman.
Okay, so here's my analysis of this patch. Bear in mind I respect the opinions of all DS players, and I have not one day in my life attempted to downplay this character, presenting him as something he's not. I also have intentions of sticking with him after the patch. Here's my honest opinion as to why I'm somewhat worried about this upcoming patch.

First, let me address the direct changes to DS. 15 frames off of the startup of trait. Interesting, there's bound to be guaranteed setups on all characters now. But is it now worth it? Less duration, longer cooldown (as in NO bullets) and less damage. That's a HUGE tradeoff if you think about it. Idk why damage was reduced, that makes no sense. Less duration is pretty big because we all know we want to use 132 as an unblockable string, but dam if it wasn't hard enough to use that string with FIVE seconds, how are we going to set it up with only 3? Also, the negative numbers are HUGE compared to the positive ones. 15 frames off is nice, but is it as nice as DOUBLE the cooldown time and almost HALF the duration? Pair that up with the indeterminate damage decrease, and it might just not be worth it. It all depends on how frequently we can set it up and make use of what little it now provides.

Now matchups. Dam things just got annoying. BA and Superman got nerfed, but those weren't terrible matchups to begin with. Aquaman did too, but I think I was the only person who thought that matchup was even (maybe people will agree with me a little more now). Other than that, the Batgirl was hardly touched (IMO the WORST DS matchup). Flash was admittedly nerfed, so that's good.

But other than the bad ones, what about the good/formerly good ones? Superman, Lobo, CW, and DD got ARMOR DASH buffs. This is horrible. I'm scared. I thought the point of DS dual wielding pistols was to handle crap like that. Idk where Superman stands, but C, Lobo, and DD just got worse. If their intent is to make us use AR more, this is a bad attempt at it. If they had buffed our trait properly, we'd use it more. Trait+AR is amazing. You can't reaction AR to a CW or DD MB Dash. You can react with pistols though.

So we've softened what... 1 bad matchup? I guess Batman counts, but in turn, we've increased the chances of our good matchups beating us, more than the opposite the way I see it. This armor dash thing is HUGE.

Oh, and Ares got more teleports. Just what we need, more free tickets in.

Now for stage interactables, DS is actually one of those characters that LOVE interactables believe it or not. Why do you think Aris loves Ferris? That place is an interactable playground. DS' incredible missile speed projectiles that are usable ground or air offer him great control over interactables. His zoning pressure forces you to block whenever you're not in range, and through the use of interactables, he can pierce your block even at a distance. MB air tanks on Ferris and MB water jets on Atlantis are amazing, but much less so now with the MB interactables costing more meter.

At least MB F3s are stronger now. That's one... just one decent global change.

I'm not one to jump to conclusions however, and I will have to see just how the trait feels before I have my verdict. I also think jumping ship right now is ludicrous. You can jump the ship if you play BA, but this isn't worth leaving BEFORE the patch even drops. But this is at least my reasoning as to why I'm worried. Don't hate me, I still plan on hitting the lab with DS' new trait post patch.

(And we still haven't gotten our dam sword spin fixed)
 

Vagrant

Champion
Ok. I think I understand.

People who used trait randomly before and didn't get punished for it, were playing bad players who didn't punish it, or at the very least, start their offense on Death Stroke. Thus leading people to believe that trait had some sort of viable use.

These players look at the trait cooldown and duration reduction now and think it's a nerf. Not realizing that the reduction in start up just saved trait from being useless. Just because they got away with using it before against bad players does not mean that trait had any sort of viable use in high level play.

The reduction in start up is the ONLY thing that could have made trait viableNow, after setups, when DS starts up trait, the opponent will not be in a position to advance on him or punish him for using it. DS will still be able to dictate the momentum with his trait up. That is huge. That is what people don't understand, and that's fine. Keep calling it a nerf. I guess at the level your playing at it could be considered a nerf for you.

For the rest of us in the current meta, this is without a doubt, a significant buff.
 

Mikman360

Not the Milkman.
I'm just hoping 15 frames is a long enough advnatage to be able to set up the trait after a more damaging combo. B1U2, D2, 32 xx Trait and B1U2, F3, D2 xx Trait are nice and all, but they ARE huge damage sacrifices.



They should have just made the bullets miss on crouching opponents. With this change, I'm under the impression that QF was MEANT to hit crouching opponents when used in conjunction with the trait (it clearly wasnt).
 

Vagrant

Champion
Now matchups. Dam things just got annoying. BA and Superman got nerfed, but those weren't terrible matchups to begin with. Aquaman did too, but I think I was the only person who thought that matchup was even (maybe people will agree with me a little more now). Other than that, the Batgirl was hardly touched (IMO the WORST DS matchup). Flash was admittedly nerfed, so that's good.

But other than the bad ones, what about the good/formerly good ones? Superman, Lobo, CW, and DD got ARMOR DASH buffs. This is horrible. I'm scared. I thought the point of DS dual wielding pistols was to handle crap like that. Idk where Superman stands, but C, Lobo, and DD just got worse. If their intent is to make us use AR more, this is a bad attempt at it. If they had buffed our trait properly, we'd use it more. Trait+AR is amazing. You can't reaction AR to a CW or DD MB Dash. You can react with pistols though.

So we've softened what... 1 bad matchup? I guess Batman counts, but in turn, we've increased the chances of our good matchups beating us, more than the opposite the way I see it. This armor dash thing is HUGE.

Batman was a bad matchup, that's a bit better
superman was a bad matchup, that's better
Black Adam evolved into a bad matchup recently, that's better
Green Lantern was rough because of the OTG, that is removed and this matchup is fine
alot of people called Flash a bad matchup, that's better
Batgirl isn't too bad it's just a matchup that isn't played traditional DS style at all.

Really the DD and CW buffs scare you that much? if anything catwoman goes from 6-4 DS to 5-5, Doomsday stays the same. even. A jumped venom is a jumped venom regardless if theres armor on it or not. jump the shoulder and shoot him.

lol the lobo MU will still be fine.
 

Vagrant

Champion
They should have just made the bullets miss on crouching opponents. With this change, I'm under the impression that QF was MEANT to hit crouching opponents when used in conjunction with the trait (it clearly wasnt).

There are certain things that are harder/more time consuming to fix than others. Going in and fucking with everyones hitbox is one of them.
 

Mikman360

Not the Milkman.
Batman was a bad matchup, that's a bit better
superman was a bad matchup, that's better
Black Adam evolved into a bad matchup recently, that's better
Green Lantern was rough because of the OTG, that is removed and this matchup is fine
alot of people called Flash a bad matchup, that's better
Batgirl isn't too bad it's just a matchup that isn't played traditional DS style at all.

Really the DD and CW buffs scare you that much? if anything catwoman goes from 6-4 DS to 5-5, Doomsday stays the same. even. A jumped venom is a jumped venom regardless if theres armor on it or not. jump the shoulder and shoot him.

lol the lobo MU will still be fine.

1. True
2. Debatable
3. Why "recently?" He's been getting nerfs since the game came out. If it was 5-5 back then, it's 5-5 now.
4. GL was arguably winnable already
5. **** this ****

It's not that DD and CW scare me, but having less good matchups is always bad news for a character's tier placement. If we want DS to be good, he's got to have more things going for him than he does against him.

There are certain things that are harder/more time consuming to fix than others. Going in and fucking with everyones hitbox is one of them.

Don't change everyones hitbox, change the hitbox of the pistols.
 

Crathen

Death is my business
I'm just hoping 15 frames is a long enough advnatage to be able to set up the trait after a more damaging combo. B1U2, D2, 32 xx Trait and B1U2, F3, D2 xx Trait are nice and all, but they ARE huge damage sacrifices.

85 to 60 frames is 25 frames less recovery , it's a big startup buff.

Think about it , now every setup that was unsafe it's now ADVANTAGE , meaning meaty unblockable gunshots / AR are almost guaranteed.

Let's take the background bounce interactable setup , with the current trait it's around -10 ( stage dependent ) , some characters can punish it some cannot , after the patch we're going to be +15 , meaning now not only we can go for a guaranteed 132 launcher if they don't wakeup but we can also cross them up into unblockable string widening the guessing game after that.

AA guns setting up trait , they can't see trait activating when they are falling so if they want to wakeup they gotta guess and commit , meaning more opportunities to bait wakeups and punish just with the threat of the trait , it will always be there after ANY knockdown.

We'll probably have new safe trait combos setups just because the startup buff , meaning more damage before traiting up.

Currently Deathstroke barely uses trait in his gameplan other than a few matchups , in the next patch this will be staple gameplan.

And FFS can we stop crying about the 6 seconds debuff time? No guns ok. We still have one of the best defensive options in the game in J3 and good range on standing 3.

That's without counting universal defensive mechanics like pushblock , clash or having interactables as a deterrent.

Do you guys realize having an usable trait will change matchups?

Baffles me how any DS players thinks trait was nerfed when we NEVER used it , now that we can use it it's BAD.
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
You have no idea what your talking about. And this is proof. Because If you knew anything about this game or character whatsoever you would know that almost every single combo DS has, including his damaging bnbs, ends in a hard knockdown (sword flip).

Stop. Just stop.

Stop spreading misinformation and downplaying this character. You don't know what your talking about and i'm sorry to be a dick here man but it's obvious you don't play the game at a high enough level to act like a spokesperson for this character. Your confusing newcomers who want to pick up the character by saying he's bad when he isn't and it's really starting to fucking piss me off.
Wow, way to misread. All I was saying was that DS can get lots of hard knockdowns, but the setups he gets off them could hurt him on a bad read more than they could help him on a good read. His damage isn't comparable to many other members of the cast, and a number of characters can wake up with attacks that beat his oki options and go into combo.

Mikman basically already went into more depth than I cared about doing and why I'm dropping Stroke. He's the only one speaking sense on this character right now.
 

Flawless Thomas

Apprentice
Wow, way to misread. All I was saying was that DS can get lots of hard knockdowns, but the setups he gets off them could hurt him on a bad read more than they could help him on a good read. His damage isn't comparable to many other members of the cast, and a number of characters can wake up with attacks that beat his oki options and go into combo.

Mikman basically already went into more depth than I cared about doing and why I'm dropping Stroke. He's the only one speaking sense on this character right now.
I'm not trying to be a dick.. But almost every other Deathstroke player aside from you is speaking objectively regarding the patch and not saying how they're dropping him because of his "trait nerf". Time will tell, but if you are already dead set on dropping him due to a patch you haven't even gotten to toy around with yet and nobody seems to really agree with your reasoning, why are you still here? Not trying to be harsh in any way, I'm just wondering.
 

Heaton

NO MONEY DOWN
Seriously. I'm getting horrible flashbacks to post-patch Natsu and all the people saying she was ruined forever. I know this is a discussion thread, but can we stop with the hyperbole, and at least save the melodrama for when the patch is actually out?
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
I'm not trying to be a dick.. But almost every other Deathstroke player aside from you is speaking objectively regarding the patch and not saying how they're dropping him because of his "trait nerf". Time will tell, but if you are already dead set on dropping him due to a patch you haven't even gotten to toy around with yet and nobody seems to really agree with your reasoning, why are you still here? Not trying to be harsh in any way, I'm just wondering.
Well, my posts do keep getting quoted.

I never said I was dropping him because of his trait nerf. It's everything else. DS doesn't exist in a vacuum. His matchups are taking a ton of hits.

But really, since people are so stuck on it - he had usable trait setups already that were not worth it because it was dropping guaranteed damage in favor of non guaranteed damage, and it dropped setup opportunities for his oki game, which would give him more damage on a good read. Now, he can get even less potential damage off a setup due to direct nerfs to gunshot damage as well as the reduced trait active time, while his debuff time got doubled. Yes, he'll probably get a few more setups and the ones he already has will be tighter. The value of those setups, though, just took a leap out of a plane without a parachute, when they were already on very shaky ground as it was. It's not really a nerf at all because trait setups had very situational uses at best - you can't really get worse than "fuck, I never use that at all, it's totally worthless." It is, however, still an insult.
 

G4S Silent Jay

I enjoy hurting you.
Getting to trait more often is worth it just to watch people LOSE THEIR MINDS when you have trait up.

Until they realize it's not nearly the threat it used to be if you managed to get trait off...

Then again, these will be the same people who let trait work in the first place... Carry on.
 

Crathen

Death is my business
Trait confirmed to be fast and useful ;)

Downside is that guns do half the damage while in trait , we're still probably gonna get free AR after knockdowns wich means 8% + another possible quickfire ( 3%) , cannot wait to test the new 132 setups.

Armor frames on Super look good.