Throws... what's with the odd design

[regulas]

Even if the character doesn't have a normal fast enough to deal with throws crouch teching, like somebody else mentioned, is a simple of way of dealing with throws that is universal to the entire cast. It means that you can tech throws without really having to go out of your way during defense. You make it sound like throws are the end all and ultimate tool in SF offense, when it's just one of many. The point of throws is to give yourself another tool when opening someone up during your offense. You don't even have to use a throw for throws to be part of your offense. Baiting your opponent into thinking your are going to throw, and then getting a counter hit from throws can lead to absolutely huge amounts of damage.

Throws are in no way overpowered or overbearing in SF, it's just another tool in your offense. Just because they start up fast, doesn't mean it's tough for characters to deal with them. Injustice throws are slower in startup, but when you compare the average speed of normals in both games, the speed in SF and Injustice makes perfect sense.

I just wanted to note that you obviously didn't even read the post you quoted form me. Everyone keep going on about balance aspect of throwing when that's not what I am complaining about. It's not about that the system works fine, it's just badly designed.

For what reason are they as fast as they are?

 

[Sajam]

I just wanted to note that you obviously didn't even read the post you quoted form me. Everyone keep going on about balance aspect of throwing when that's not what I am complaining about. It's not about that the system works fine, it's just badly designed.

How is that bad design?

I broke down the throw game and how it helps to add depth to the game. I know you mentioned that you felt the throw game was just an attempt to "add depth", and that's fine, because it is. Street Fighter isn't built around high/low starters into big damage combos. A few character have that option, but the majority of the game is about footsies, maximizing knockdowns, and the throw game. Lots of fighting games follow a very similar system of offensive/defensive flow. There is a reason, because it works well and adds depth and options for offense pressure as well as something for the defender to be aware of.

 

[regulas]

How is that bad design?

I broke down the throw game and how it helps to add depth to the game. I know you mentioned that you felt the throw game was just an attempt to "add depth", and that's fine, because it is. Street Fighter isn't built around high/low starters into big damage combos. A few character have that option, but the majority of the game is about footsies, maximizing knockdowns, and the throw game. Lots of fighting games follow a very similar system of offensive/defensive flow. There is a reason, because it works well and adds depth and options for offense pressure as well as something for the defender to be aware of.

Think of it this way; what if every character had a full screen ability to just randomly deal damage to your opponent (just presss a button and your opponent takes damage no matter where they are, or what they do). Now there are a ton of factors for which it could be a terrible idea to use this ability and everyone would have it so it would assuredly be balanced mechanically, and it may even almost never get used because you could deal more damage through combo's etc... but it would still be a stupid mechanic.

 

[Sajam]

Think of it this way; what if every character had a full screen ability to just randomly deal damage to your opponent (just presss a button and your opponent takes damage no matter where they are, or what they do). Now there are a ton of factors for which it could be a terrible idea to use this ability and everyone would have it so it would assuredly be balanced mechanically, and it may even almost never get used because you could deal more damage through combo's etc... but it would still be a stupid mechanic.

This is the most silly reasoning for I've seen, but I'll give it a shot.

The difference here is that throws are risky. You have to get in, you have to risk completely losing pressure, you have to risk losing out on damage, and you have to risk your opponent getting a full combo off of you walking in to go for a throw. The situation you made is hard to compare to throws since throws are a mechanic designed entirely around being close to your opponent. Changing the situation so drastically makes it hard to compare, since throws aren't guaranteed damage no matter what. Just because some people aren't teching throws, doesn't mean everybody can't.

Lots of people have explained why throws in SF are the way they are, and how it fits the games dynamic. You are allowed to believe it's a stupid mechanic, but if you are only here to complain about how badly designed throws are you shouldn't be surprised when people have lots of reasons for why they aren't.

 

[regulas]

This is the most silly reasoning for I've seen, but I'll give it a shot.

The difference here is that throws are risky. You have to get in, you have to risk completely losing pressure, you have to risk losing out on damage, and you have to risk your opponent getting a full combo off of you walking in to go for a throw. The situation you made is hard to compare to throws since throws are a mechanic designed entirely around being close to your opponent. Changing the situation so drastically makes it hard to compare, since throws aren't guaranteed damage no matter what. Just because some people aren't teching throws, doesn't mean everybody can't.

Lots of people have explained why throws in SF are the way they are, and how it fits the games dynamic. You are allowed to believe it's a stupid mechanic, but if you are only here to complain about how badly designed throws are you shouldn't be surprised when people have lots of reasons for why they aren't.

It just feels like people see throws as being normal because it's how it's always been in SF, but for someone who hasn't played SF, throws feel like they break the flow of combat, like were duking it out and somebody is like no.. no... stop that stop that...

I mean if you slowed throws down by 3 frames think about it.

 

[Sajam]

It just feels like people see throws as being normal because it's how it's always been in SF, but for someone who hasn't played SF, throws feel like they break the flow of combat, like were duking it out and somebody is like no.. no... stop that stop that...

Yeah, I can understand that feeling. Once you break down how throws function for certain characters though, it starts to make sense.

Lots of offensive characters in SF get really strong setups from landing forward throws, which is something they should be doing offensively. This is rewarding for a player to get in, make something happen, and earn a reward for doing so. Since knockdowns are key to offensive pressure in SF, forward throws on offense based characters tend to be very good for them. Characters like Rufus actually do more damage on their forward throws than normal, to reward him for getting in and landing throws with his lack of footsie tools.

Then there are characters like Dhalsim/Sagat who's backward throws are really great for them. Since they are defensive characters, their throws create a huge amount of space between them and their opponent, usually moving them back to full screen. Throws are balanced around thing like this, and help to diversify options/setups that characters have. It's a strange mechanic to get used to, but it makes more sense as you play.

 

[Soulofsuikoden]

Throws are important for mind games because a good opponent who knows the match up against your character will defend against your tool that has the most reward for you. An overhead combo that leads to 50% damage has more reward than a low starting combo that leads to 30%.

This is exactly why you do the lower reward attack because if your opponent is smart, he will do the math and figure stand blocking is the better of two scenarios. Now a throw does far less than 30% damage. Of those three options, taking a throw is no big deal, taking a 50% or even 30% damage is.

Your opponent will most likely stand block the high reward attack. Then maybe duck block the mid reward and rarely counter the low reward throw. Hope I explained it well.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

In the early days of SF4 people thought Ken was going to be S tier because he had the ability to kara throw from sweep range. What people didn't really know back then is how powerful crouch tech and late tech would end up being. But the way mobility, pokes and counter hits are designed makes it so you can frametrap / hunt for counter hits into juicy combos which can make crouch teching a bad habit, which makes throws relevant again but not too powerful because of all the defensive options (crouch OS, late tech, reversal FADC, airborne normal/specials). So the system ended up balancing itself.

Even the vortexes ended up being not that big of a deal when people realized they could wake up FADC to avoid getting option-selected. Of course you still have to guess a lot and make reads especially when you're knocked down but that's the name of the game. Just don't get knocked down/thrown in the first place.

MK9 throws were basically 50/50s. You had to guess to break one + it was much easier to just crouch poke, jump or backdash to avoid them. Not to mention most throws in MK never led into scary oki situations so you didn't care that much to lose 10%. This had the perverse effect of just giving up on ever teching any throws at all. Playing too much MK can make you worse at SF lol. No, really.

 

[Wasted]

I think Ono wanted to keep the classic style of throws of sf2

In SF2 throws are done with F or B+HP, and breaking them only gave a damage reduction. SF4 throws are taken from SF3.

OP, you are a fucking scrub, but you've already admitted this. Throws ARE unblockable, by definition. They connect on people who are trying to block. Throws don't freeze time. You don't need frame advantage to throw someone. You only need someone who is not in block stun.

Throws beat normals if the two ever contact each other. But this doesn't mean fuck shit all, since the hurtbox of most normals is FAAAAAR outside anyone's grab range.

The idea is to do your move BEFORE a throw, so you hit them right out of it.

 

[regulas]

Yeah, I can understand that feeling. Once you break down how throws function for certain characters though, it starts to make sense.

Lots of offensive characters in SF get really strong setups from landing forward throws, which is something they should be doing offensively. This is rewarding for a player to get in, make something happen, and earn a reward for doing so. Since knockdowns are key to offensive pressure in SF, forward throws on offense based characters tend to be very good for them. Characters like Rufus actually do more damage on their forward throws than normal, to reward him for getting in and landing throws with his lack of footsie tools.

Then there are characters like Dhalsim/Sagat who's backward throws are really great for them. Since they are defensive characters, their throws create a huge amount of space between them and their opponent, usually moving them back to full screen. Throws are balanced around thing like this, and help to diversify options/setups that characters have. It's a strange mechanic to get used to, but it makes more sense as you play.

I guess the biggest thing, is what if throws were like 2 frames slower? It feels like most of the mechanics would still be there, it just wouldn't feel as disrupting to the game flow.

 

[regulas]

In SF2 throws are done with F or B+HP, and breaking them only gave a damage reduction. SF4 throws are taken from SF3.

OP, you are a fucking scrub, but you've already admitted this. Throws ARE unblockable, by definition. They connect on people who are trying to block. Throws don't freeze time. You don't need frame advantage to throw someone. You only need someone who is not in block stun.

Throws beat normals if the two ever contact each other. But this doesn't mean fuck shit all, since the hurtbox of most normals is FAAAAAR outside anyone's grab range.

The idea is to do your move BEFORE a throw, so you hit them right out of it.

The freeze time is about the visuals, the way they break into the animation it looks like they are freezing time, which has nothing to do with game mechanics.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

It just feels like people see throws as being normal because it's how it's always been in SF, but for someone who hasn't played SF, throws feel like they break the flow of combat, like were duking it out and somebody is like no.. no... stop that stop that...

I mean if you slowed throws down by 3 frames think about it.

The biggest difference between MK and SF is that normals inflict huge amounts of chip in MK. So you can't really turtle all day.

But in SF only specials inflict chip. Which means a player using Guile can turtle the whole match with little consequences if he has strong footsies and AA defense (e.g. Dieminion). Which is why throws must be the way they are. It's an option to open up someone who is holding down/back all day.

You have to see it like this:

block > reversals
throws > block
crouch tech > throws
frame traps > crouch techs
reversals > frame traps

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I guess the biggest thing, is what if throws were like 2 frames slower? It feels like most of the mechanics would still be there, it just wouldn't feel as disrupting to the game flow.

No, there are only 2 options:

1. You stop complaining and level up your fundamentals.
2. You give up on the game because you are too horrible at it.

No one will listen to your suggestions because you basically admitted not having the knowledge required to understand the system. You are only frustrated because you played a different game where throws are an actual thread you have to respect and constantly think about. The whole game is based around footsies, the throw game and okizeme. And if you have bad footsies and can't counter/bait throws then you will lose a lot.

Blaming the game's system and mechanics is a terrible mentality that will get you nowhere. Learn how to play or don't play. It's simple really.

 

[regulas]

No, there are only 2 options:

1. You stop complaining and level up your fundamentals.
2. You give up on the game because you are too horrible at it.

No one will listen to your suggestions because you basically admitted not having the knowledge required to understand the system. You are only frustrated because you played a different game where throws are an actual thread you have to respect and constantly think about. The whole game is based around footsies, the throw game and okizeme. And if you have bad footsies and can't counter/bait throws then you will lose a lot.

Blaming the game's system and mechanics is a terrible mentality that will get you nowhere. Learn how to play or don't play. It's simple really.

What are you talking about? I know exactly how the system works, and I've never complained about not being able to counter throws.... are you doing ok?

 

[regulas]

I'm saying the throw game is out of place. You can use it, you can master it and get used to it, but it's still out of place.


Bi-athalon is a valid sport, but shooting and skiing are still two different things, and the throw game feels like that, like some separate entity that is also included.

 

[G4S KT]

I'm saying the throw game is out of place. You can use it, you can master it and get used to it, but it's still out of place.


Bi-athalon is a valid sport, but shooting and skiing are still two different things, and the throw game feels like that, like some separate entity that is also included.

Throws are not out of place. It's actually the exact opposite. The throw game is the core of the entire offense of the sf4 series. Literally every other piece of offense revolves around throwing and throw tech attempts.

You're just not used to it. MK9 had throws that were terribly designed. Injustice too is very different. It's similar on paper but you can tech all throws in igau on reaction which makes them completely useless against veteran players who have played other games. SF4 you can't tech on reaction

As an aside, I think throws in sf4 are too strong and I hope they adopt the SFxT throw in ultra. (5 frames, less range)

 

[THTB]

The throws in Street Fighter make sense! You can tech them, or better yet option select them.
The throws in Injustice make NO SENSE! You can grab people that are ducking? but yet have characters, like Shazam, that have couch throws? that doesn't make any sense.

SFxT has the same stuff lol.

KT Smith oddly enough, people said throws sucked in early SFIV lol. Then the setups off throws were discovered. And people learned to frame trap.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I'm saying the throw game is out of place. You can use it, you can master it and get used to it, but it's still out of place.


Bi-athalon is a valid sport, but shooting and skiing are still two different things, and the throw game feels like that, like some separate entity that is also included.

If you did understand the system this thread would not exist.

The fact that you think throws are out of place and should get slowed down only proves that you don't get it. But it doesn't matter what I say because you seem convinced that the problem is with the game and the way throws were designed.

Whatever. I already said what I wanted to say. This thread is pointless anyway since you're not even asking for advice or anything. You're just saying stupid scrubby shit.

Have a nice day. And by "nice" I of course mean very salty regular day.

 

[Gurpwnder]

The only characters without a throw invincible move are Zangief and Makoto, the rest have numerous ways around them.

 

[regulas]

The throw game is the core of the entire offense of the sf4 series. Literally every other piece of offense revolves around throwing and throw tech attempts.

There that there is basically the core of why it's out of place. In a game about punches and kicks and fireballs why is throwing such a core mechanic. You have these huge array of moves yet too much revolves around a generic throw system.

 

[regulas]

If you did understand the system this thread would not exist.

The fact that you think throws are out of place and should get slowed down only proves that you don't get it. But it doesn't matter what I say because you seem convinced that the problem is with the game and the way throws were designed.

Whatever. I already said what I wanted to say. This thread is pointless anyway since you're not even asking for advice or anything. You're just saying stupid scrubby shit.

Have a nice day. And by "nice" I of course mean very salty regular day.

You just seem irritated that someone is question an aspect about your game.

 

[Deyrax]

Odd design you say ? How about bullshit NRS blockable throws (which are basically command grabs on SF terms) like Jax's, Kano's or Nightwolf's ?

 

[THTB]

As an aside, I think throws in sf4 are too strong and I hope they adopt the SFxT throw in ultra. (5 frames, less range)

Throws in SFxT have NO range whatsoever. Lowering the speed is fine, but the range...god no. You'd pretty much fuck over the offense of SFIV.

 

[THTB]

Odd design you say ? How about a bullshit NRS blockable throws (which are basically command grabs on SF terms) like Jax's, Kano's or Nightwolf's ?

SNK games are known to have blockable command throws in some of their games.

 

[Deyrax]

SNK games are known to have blockable command throws in some of their games.

Never played those so that was a surprise to me. Thanks for info, doe.