Throws... what's with the odd design

[regulas]

Disclaimer: I'm fully aware that you can "counter" throws

Recently I have started touching some SSF4 AE as someone who has never played any SF games of before, and of all the things I find odd about the game the most nonsensical is the throws... both mechanically and ascetically

Why are throws equal or faster then most light attacks? It just doesn't make sense that an unblockable move can't be punched or hit first. The whole point of a throw should be that it is unblockable, being able to beat out any attack unless they have advantage is just so strange a design decision... it makes it so that you can't be in melee range unless you have block advantage...
heck there are so many things in the game that just seem like they work that way cause someone felt like it and not because they wanted to add depth to the fighting mechanics.


And then there's the whole time freeze thing, the way throws look in-game it looks as if they are sticking up there hands and going "time out" then throwing you then "time in" as if every character has the magical ability to freeze time.

Disclaimer: I'm fully aware that you can "counter" throws

 

[Spinky]

SFxT throws are worse.

 

[Dagoth_Gares]

Wait, you know you can break throws right? They aren't "unlockable" in a way.
Excluding command throws of course.

 

[Flash_Lantern]

The throws in Street Fighter make sense! You can tech them, or better yet option select them.
The throws in Injustice make NO SENSE! You can grab people that are ducking? but yet have characters, like Shazam, that have couch throws? that doesn't make any sense.

 

[miloPKL]

MK throws are garbage. i hate the system. sf4 throw system is traditional. nrs got it right with igau.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Lol imo injustice throws are crazy. Why do they hit while crouching? Maybe because of the down to block? Idk but I still get caught being lazy because I don't think I can be thrown lol... anyway... I don't play sf but throws get teched all the time in that game, so I don't think it's too dominating or anything.

 

[regulas]

The throws in Street Fighter make sense! You can tech them, or better yet option select them.
The throws in Injustice make NO SENSE! You can grab people that are ducking? but yet have characters, like Shazam, that have couch throws? that doesn't make any sense.

You can counter throws in any game, that's not the point, I don't see how being able to grab someone who is crouching is so odd because that's just reaching down.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

You can counter throws in any game, that's not the point, I don't see how being able to grab someone who is crouching is so odd because that's just reaching down.

It is just different than what most are used to.... crouching is traditionally a way to punish a throw attempt so players are stuck with that mentality. Can you crouch throws in SF? i dont really know tbh

 

[regulas]

It is just different than what most are used to.... crouching is traditionally a way to punish a throw attempt so players are stuck with that mentality. Can you crouch throws in SF? i dont really know tbh

My issue is to do with game design rather then balance. Basically in SF throws just don't seem to fit in with the rest of the game mechanics (except for command throws), it feels jarring and out of place, rather then having a defined purpose.

 

[chemist4hire]

The difference is how you can break throws in injustice and SF. In both games you can be thrown while crouching, except that in SF4 you can tech throws while crouching. In Injustice, you must be standing to tech the throw. If you try teching the throw while still crouching you will get thrown. Teching throws in injustice is what I find hard to get used too.

 

[Qwark28]

It is just different than what most are used to.... crouching is traditionally a way to punish a throw attempt so players are stuck with that mentality. Can you crouch throws in SF? i dont really know tbh

crouching is not a traditional way to punish a throw attempt... thats only happens in mk9 where we also had a million other faulty mechanics

 

[Dagoth_Gares]

Throws are there to open up blocking opponents. Blocking beats poking, poking beats walking up and grabbing, grabbing beats blocking. How does it not fit in with the rest of the games mechanics?

 

[regulas]

Just to put emphasis my issue with throws in SF is the speed they occur at. They would be perfectly fine if they were slowed down by like 3-6 frames. It's the fact that they are faster then most options that I find so odd. In IGAU throws are slower then fast attacks (typically 10 frames whereas characters often have 6-8 frame attacks), meaning that you want to use throws in specific types of situations that already occur, such as where the opponent is over-blocking.

 

[regulas]

Throws are there to open up blocking opponents. Blocking beats poking, poking beats walking up and grabbing, grabbing beats blocking. How does it not fit in with the rest of the games mechanics?

In SF grabbing also beats poking, and melee attacks, and almost everything inside grab range. That's the issue.

 

[ShadowBeatz]

Ewww. Street Fighter on my recent threads feed? Get it off get it off GET IT OFF!!!!

 

[Dagoth_Gares]

Throws generally don't beat long range pokes, unless its a command throw. Getting thrown out of pressure probably means the pressure isn't very tight, otherwise the throw attempt should get them counterhit. Personally I think the throws in IGAU are so slow as to not be all that useful since they are so easy to see coming.

 

[Sajam]

In SF grabbing also beats poking, and melee attacks, and almost everything inside grab range. That's the issue.

Uh, you can poke people out of throws easily in SF. In fact, it's very easy to mash out of throw attempts. Grab range isn't even that large in SF, unless you are talking about command grabs or a kara throw like Ken's. SF's throw system is really good because the defender has multiple ways to deal with throws, and the offensive player has just as many ways to bait the defender into thinking they are going for a throw, and getting better offense off of it. It may seem like throws are overbearing at first, but throwing and throw baiting in SF takes a while to get used to.

 

[Killphil]

I can't say for sure if throws are faster than light jabs in sfIV...but I know I've been grabbed out of my cr. lp many times before. And yes, MK is typically the only game that crouching actually "beats" throws, and that is only if you don't block.

The throws in Street Fighter make sense! You can tech them, or better yet option select them.
The throws in Injustice make NO SENSE! You can grab people that are ducking? but yet have characters, like Shazam, that have couch throws? that doesn't make any sense.

If you are joking, I missed the sarcasm. You can grab people that are ducking in sf...the game you say where throws make sense.The difference between Shazam's low command grab and a throw is that he can special cancel it off strings to catch people crouching AND it leads into a combo.

The difference is how you can break throws in injustice and SF. In both games you can be thrown while crouching, except that in SF4 you can tech throws while crouching. In Injustice, you must be standing to tech the throw. If you try teching the throw while still crouching you will get thrown. Teching throws in injustice is what I find hard to get used too.

Tell me this is some sort of sick joke. I thought I just sucked at the game and was free to throws. I didn't know you couldn't tech on crouch. *Sorry everyone, I missed the first week of Injustice 101, I was too busy playing games that make me happy. XD

 

[regulas]

Uh, you can poke people out of throws easily in SF. In fact, it's very easy to mash out of throw attempts. Grab range isn't even that large in SF, unless you are talking about command grabs or a kara throw like Ken's. SF's throw system is really good because the defender has multiple ways to deal with throws, and the offensive player has just as many ways to bait the defender into thinking they are going for a throw, and getting better offense off of it. It may seem like throws are overbearing at first, but throwing and throw baiting in SF takes a while to get used to.

Specific characters have fast enough pokes, but a lot of the cast seem to have a hard time beating out throws, short of starting your attack first the only way ive seen people counter throws is with throw tech and the like. Which is "balanced' but it basically makes throwing like it's own separate mini-game completely independent from the match you are fighting.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

Throws in SF4 take 2 frames to activate, with the 3rd/4th frame being the active frames. Only exception is Gouken's back throw, which takes 4 frames of start-up and activates on the 5th/6th frame.

As such, most characters will have a LP/LK that beats throws, and if nothing else, crouch teching (an option select performed by pressing down and LP and LK at the same time - ensuring that either you tech the throw or throw out a LK, depending on which outcome is more suitable for the situation at hand) will be a better way to counter those. Those, sadly, are character dependent, with characters like Dee Jay having no LK or higher 4f normals making it a risky gamble to just toss out as that singular frame may end up with you either eating the throw or a punish. Gouken is also a tricky one as his crouch tech will be performed by pressing LP/LK/MK since his MK comes out in 4 frames instead of his LK which comes out in 5.

But yeah, it's a race as to who does theirs first, in the end. Which is why throws tend to not have that high of a range... exception kara throws, of course.

As far as the aesthetics, wait until kara throws come in. Vega's and Ken's be dumb, yo.

The throws in Street Fighter make sense! You can tech them, or better yet option select them.
The throws in Injustice make NO SENSE! You can grab people that are ducking? but yet have characters, like Shazam, that have couch throws? that doesn't make any sense.

The deal with Shazam is that his command throw hits high and his crouch command throw only hits low. Regular throws have no bearing on this whatsoever since you can't combo out of a regular throw with Shazam (whereas getting command throw'd against Shazam means being dunked in the middle of Vortex City.)

 

[regulas]

Throws generally don't beat long range pokes, unless its a command throw. Getting thrown out of pressure probably means the pressure isn't very tight, otherwise the throw attempt should get them counterhit. Personally I think the throws in IGAU are so slow as to not be all that useful since they are so easy to see coming.

In IGAU throws are a specific type of move to be used in certain types of situations, in SF the only reason you wouldn't throw is because they might tech or counter it, basically it's a forced mechanic that you have to deal with rather then an option or move you might use.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

Or you're not into range, or you have a better option available (Throws in SF do around 100-135 damage, Rufus being the outlier with his front throw that's getting nerfed in Ultra anyway) due to bigger damage out of a mix-up. Throws aren't guaranteed damage, and you generally need to set them up against an opponent who is aware of the throw game. Against someone who isn't aware of it, I agree that it's free damage.

Which is why I go 0-2 in a lot of locals. I can't tech for shit against a lot of people.

 

[Dagoth_Gares]

Going for a throw and them teching it is sometimes a bigger negative too the person trying to throw than it might seem as the throw tech can push them out of the range they want to be at, and it ends their pressure.

 

[Sajam]

Specific characters have fast enough pokes, but a lot of the cast seem to have a hard time beating out throws, short of starting your attack first the only way ive seen people counter throws is with throw tech and the like. Which is "balanced' but it basically makes throwing like it's own separate mini-game completely independent from the match you are fighting.

Even if the character doesn't have a normal fast enough to deal with throws crouch teching, like somebody else mentioned, is a simple of way of dealing with throws that is universal to the entire cast. It means that you can tech throws without really having to go out of your way during defense. You make it sound like throws are the end all and ultimate tool in SF offense, when it's just one of many. The point of throws is to give yourself another tool when opening someone up during your offense. You don't even have to use a throw for throws to be part of your offense. Baiting your opponent into thinking your are going to throw, and then getting a counter hit from throws can lead to absolutely huge amounts of damage.

Throws are in no way overpowered or overbearing in SF, it's just another tool in your offense. Just because they start up fast, doesn't mean it's tough for characters to deal with them. Injustice throws are slower in startup, but when you compare the average speed of normals in both games, the speed in SF and Injustice makes perfect sense.

 

[DoctrineDark]

I think Ono wanted to keep the classic style of throws of sf2