Throws... what's with the odd design

[Gurpwnder]

The fact that there are so many ways around throws justifies their startup and range, at least to me. To be very honest though, I also see it as an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" scenario.

One of the largest anti-throw strats is frame-trapping. Since most people are hammering LP + LK during blockstrings, you can leave a small gap so that you counter-hit any crouch tech / option select techs and give them a nice chunky combo for their troubles. Every throw also has 20 frames of recovery (Except Gouken's back throw, which has 24), so if you suspect that people are stand-teching, you can walk back and punish their grab attempt.

 

[chemist4hire]

SNK games are known to have blockable command throws in some of their games.

True, but in that game you can combo into command throws. In street fighter that is impossible, you have to either command throw an opponent who has left themselves open or command throw a blocking opponent by forcing the block (tick throws).

 

[THTB]

True, but in that game you can combo into command throws. In street fighter that is impossible, you have to either command throw an opponent who has left themselves open or command throw a blocking opponent by forcing the block (tick throws).

Yeah...MK9 is the same as SNK in those regards.

 

[G4S KT]

Throws in SFxT have NO range whatsoever. Lowering the speed is fine, but the range...god no. You'd pretty much fuck over the offense of SFIV.

I know I love the range. ok maybe a little more range than cross tekken

 

[G4S KT]

There that there is basically the core of why it's out of place. In a game about punches and kicks and fireballs why is throwing such a core mechanic. You have these huge array of moves yet too much revolves around a generic throw system.

you must have misread my post. I said throws are the core of OFFENSE. Generally speaking when you're throwing out kicks and punches and fireballs you're in a neutral game where no one is at advantage.

The fun thing about SF is that it has legitimate positions of Offense, Defense, and Neutral / Footsies due to the way normals are built. Unlike NRS games where it's just a clusterfuck of nothingness and rapidly shifting momentum back and forth back and forth until someone gets put into an oki set up or ... *shudder*... standing reset.

If I'm peppering you with +2 3 frame jabs, you're on defense, I'm on offense. Will I use the advantage to hit you with another jab or low strong or something? or will I throw you? That's SF4 offense in a nutshell.

What if I think you're going to mash throw? If I'm Cammy OOPS you just got EX Cannon Strike'd into almost 500 damage

Also, ever thought about why an invincible uppercut being buffered into frame disadvantage is called a reversal?

tl;dr: overheads in SF4 are incredibly weak and strong throws make up for that.


THTB I want to meet the people who say throws in SF are weak lmao. even on the scrubbiest level someone can mash throw and pull you out of a lot of shit. your game has to be TIGHT to put a stop to that.

 

[THTB]

THTB I want to meet the people who say throws in SF are weak lmao. even on the scrubbiest level someone can mash throw and pull you out of a lot of shit. your game has to be TIGHT to put a stop to that.

No one will say that now, obviously, lol. It was before people began to properly utilize frame traps and discovered the wakeup offense (safe jump OSs, unblockables, etc).

 

[Zyphox]

The difference is how you can break throws in injustice and SF. In both games you can be thrown while crouching, except that in SF4 you can tech throws while crouching. In Injustice, you must be standing to tech the throw. If you try teching the throw while still crouching you will get thrown. Teching throws in injustice is what I find hard to get used too.

this is a lie you can tech throws while crouching.

 

[RadicalFuzz]

In IGAU throws are a specific type of move to be used in certain types of situations, in SF the only reason you wouldn't throw is because they might tech or counter it, basically it's a forced mechanic that you have to deal with rather then an option or move you might use.

-Player 1 walks up to throw
-Player 2 sees this and preemptively begins a short combo (let's say cr.MK QCF+P) for 10-15%

That's assuming you aren't crouch teching either. The risk-reward (not counting the 1-frame blockables) is in the non-thrower's favor

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Throws in SFxT are still fine imo because every character has a CADC move that usually leaves them around -3. The frametraps come from CADCs and +frame block string pressure more than walk up pokes like in AE.

CADCs are more effective than FADCs because they are dash canceled special moves. In AE you need 2 meters to cancel a poke into FADC. In SFxT it's free and it can be trickier to deal with because you can let the special move go or cancel it. And even if you're -3 you still have advantage most of the time because most people can't react fast enough (they'd need to mash in anticipation) + they have to respect launcher/Special xx switch or EX. So despite garbage throw range I often land things like s.mk xx CADC throw/frametrap. Mixed up with delayed CA or backdash CADC to bait and whiff punish.

Considering the higher frame advantage / blockstun of SFxT, throws had to be toned down because jab pressure + AE kara throws + CADC mechanic + 500 damage for 1 bar off counter hit would make a few characters a little too silly.

Though according to Seth Killian the main reason why throws were nerfed is because it was too easy to grab people out of buffered pokes at mid-range. I'm assuming throwable hitboxes are bigger in SFxT .

 

[DeadlyCreampuff]

I guess the biggest thing, is what if throws were like 2 frames slower? It feels like most of the mechanics would still be there, it just wouldn't feel as disrupting to the game flow.

SFxT actually tried this angle by originally having 7f throws and very short range. Throws became barely useable because of this and in an update eventually got boosted to 5f and remove all the red health of the character as an added boost, making throws useful again. The slower startup works better in SFxT as the game has sometimes ridiculous amounts of advantage on blocked lights allowing one to add the throw in.

Why it (probably, I'm not the developer) works the way it does is to allow throws to play a central part in the mixup and being slower than lights would cause them to become horribly ineffective when lots of moves have people be 0 or only +1 on block off common pressure normals/specials(some still have much better though, dammit balrog and cammy XD) combined with their short range.
Funnily enough, 3f throws are REALLY slow. 0f throws in sf2, 2f throws in 3s. Yeah that 7f throw in in VanillaSfxT was harsh :3 (10f in injustice)

I find it weird you call it bad design(Sirlin didn't like it either, but he thought they started way too slow, great old article that, contains the mentioned view point regarding throws as horribly ineffetive back then) when it seems to do its part to perofrm the rock paper scissors mechanic of fighting games. Block stops attack, attacks outrange/damage throws, throws beat block. With the evolution of techniques in streetfighter throws seem to have nestled nicely(OS Techs beat throws easily, counterhit setups beat os tech, throws lead to Oki) so even unintentionally seem to have a solid place and evolved along with the game.

(Btw want scary throws? Try Marvels 1fs that lead to instant kills :3 )

 

[haketh]

Throws in SFxT have NO range whatsoever. Lowering the speed is fine, but the range...god no. You'd pretty much fuck over the offense of SFIV.

THe reward you get out of throws is extrmely powerful though. High damage and taking away Red life.

SNK games are known to have blockable command throws in some of their games.

SNK has never had anything like this, unless you're talking about some Bukuri One stuff. You can combo into command throws though.

 

[DeadlyCreampuff]

SNK has never had anything like this, unless you're talking about some Bukuri One stuff. You can combo into command throws though.

KoF13 has some at least, but I'm no SNK buff and no idea how long they have been. Some versions of command grabs are blockable(Yuri EX is a hit unlike the normal grab versions)

Also blockable command throws are little more than just regular moves that go into an animation on hit(Like Ibuki neckbreaker and uuhhh... is it yoroi toshi? the one where she grabs them then energy blast, has an Ultra version too). Shouldn't consider them grabs.

 

[d3v]

Throws in SFIV are actually pretty bad considering how easy it is to tech them. Being able to beat lights is just a caveat. If they didn't beat lights, then throws would be even worse.

The standard for good throws is still classic 1 buttons SF throws as they used to be. 0 frame start up, no teching (softening allowed).

3rd Strike did get the whole teching thing right though by making it so that you have to tech on prediction and not on reaction. The window to tech was a few frames larger before the throw connected then after.

 

[regulas]

I find it weird you call it bad design(Sirlin didn't like it either, but he thought they started way too slow, great old article that, contains the mentioned view point regarding throws as horribly ineffetive back then) when it seems to do its part to perofrm the rock paper scissors mechanic of fighting games. Block stops attack, attacks outrange/damage throws, throws beat block. With the evolution of techniques in streetfighter throws seem to have nestled nicely(OS Techs beat throws easily, counterhit setups beat os tech, throws lead to Oki) so even unintentionally seem to have a solid place and evolved along with the game.

(Btw want scary throws? Try Marvels 1fs that lead to instant kills :3 )

Because throws are "generic" moves.... the characters have all these normals, and all these specials, and all these variations and styles and qualities, and yet generic throw has a higher priority.

 

[DeadlyCreampuff]

Because throws are "generic" moves.... the characters have all these normals, and all these specials, and all these variations and styles and qualities, and yet generic throw has a higher priority.

That it does not have. Besides priority being a vague word(usually a combination of hitboxes and startup frames), throws do not outrange anything and due to their short range need fast startup to compete. Their talent is being the one thing that can beat block and to avoid uselessness to be able to fight normals in some way as it won't win by range(Ken, stop looking at me with that stupid grin)

Also, lots of characters have specials and normals that beat throws in ways other than range. From purely invincible specials, to airborn normals or the also "generic" backdash or jump. Throw the poor throws a bone :3

 

[haketh]

KoF13 has some at least, but I'm no SNK buff and no idea how long they have been. Some versions of command grabs are blockable(Yuri EX is a hit unlike the normal grab versions)

That's different though, it becomes a hit when it's EX'd, it's no longer a command grab.

Throws in SFIV are actually pretty bad considering how easy it is to tech them. Being able to beat lights is just a caveat. If they didn't beat lights, then throws would be even worse.

The standard for good throws is still classic 1 buttons SF throws as they used to be. 0 frame start up, no teching (softening allowed).

3rd Strike did get the whole teching thing right though by making it so that you have to tech on prediction and not on reaction. The window to tech was a few frames larger before the throw connected then after.

ST throws are fucking horribly designed.

 

[MagicMan357]

You just suck, its that simple

 

[DeadlyCreampuff]

That's different though, it becomes a hit when it's EX'd, it's no longer a command grab.

Then how do you define a "hitting" command grab?

You just suck, its that simple

Yes insulting someone will surely teach them the error of their ways instead of them being more unwilling to see the other side of the argument. Well done.

 

[haketh]

Then how do you define a "hitting" command grab?

THeres no such thing, Yuri's EX HCB+K is no longer typed as a throw, it's a hit move that just has a catch animation.

 

[DeadlyCreampuff]

THeres no such thing, Yuri's EX HCB+K is no longer typed as a throw, it's a hit move that just has a catch animation.

Then I really don't get why you are arguing with me about Yuri's EX.

 

[haketh]

Then I really don't get why you are arguing with me about Yuri's EX.

I was agreeing with you. Sorry for the confusion, hella tired right now.

 

[DeadlyCreampuff]

I was agreeing with you. Sorry for the confusion, hella tired right now.

Sallright^^

 

[THTB]

Throws in SFIV are actually pretty bad considering how easy it is to tech them.

Throws pretty bad...? Considering the oki a number characters have post-throw, don't see how you can consider them bad.

Injustice throws are bad.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I do plenty command dashes with Ibuki just to perform a Raida against someone who is mashing pokes to get out of the mixups lol

 

[DoctrineDark]

In SF2 throws are done with F or B+HP, and breaking them only gave a damage reduction. SF4 throws are taken from SF3.

OP, you are a fucking scrub, but you've already admitted this. Throws ARE unblockable, by definition. They connect on people who are trying to block. Throws don't freeze time. You don't need frame advantage to throw someone. You only need someone who is not in block stun.

Throws beat normals if the two ever contact each other. But this doesn't mean fuck shit all, since the hurtbox of most normals is FAAAAAR outside anyone's grab range.

The idea is to do your move BEFORE a throw, so you hit them right out of it.

I do not mean technically, please.. we all know how were throws in sf2, I mean the kind of utility that can give you and how important they are in SF, the utility of sf2 throws remained in sf4.