Match-up Discussion My Black Adam Matchup Chart ( Version 1.07 )

[SonicBoomBrad]

and I play metzos offline. I've made several arguments as to why DD loses and have said several times to provide points for yours.

Godspeed got 5th at Evo. I know this match up at the highest level that exists right now. I don't make baseless statements based off online matches. Everything I say has backing. I've argued this several times and have wrote out a giant paragraph every time. The mobility is the only thing that is in Adam's favor, making you guess. With good reads it's very winnable. I would go for a 5.5-4.5 in Adam's favor with a slight possibility that it's a 6-4. He can't zone you. He's not going to get a 50% combo on you as long as you're not retarded and block high. His wake up option is super readable and easy to stuff. The only thing that's difficult is that after a venom you have to guess jump or backdash, and even if you guess WRONG he's still moving himself toward the corner, which is exactly where you want to be. You can even stuff lightning cage on wake up with a well timed f2 meaty, leading into some really high damage mid screen with an interactable or a bar. The only match ups Doomsday loses 7-3 are Batman and Superman.

 

[Cage Redfield]

dat pop-off doe

 

[Qwark28]

Godspeed got 5th at Evo. I know this match up at the highest level that exists right now. I don't make baseless statements based off online matches. Everything I say has backing. I've argued this several times and have wrote out a giant paragraph every time. The mobility is the only thing that is in Adam's favor, making you guess. With good reads it's very winnable. I would go for a 5.5-4.5 in Adam's favor with a slight possibility that it's a 6-4. He can't zone you. He's not going to get a 50% combo on you as long as you're not retarded and block high. His wake up option is super readable and easy to stuff. The only thing that's difficult is that after a venom you have to guess jump or backdash, and even if you guess WRONG he's still moving himself toward the corner, which is exactly where you want to be. You can even stuff lightning cage on wake up with a well timed f2 meaty, leading into some really high damage mid screen with an interactable or a bar. The only match ups Doomsday loses 7-3 are Batman and Superman.

you should never be stuffing lightning cage but jumping it, f2 wont even combo to ex shake. btw, with the same logic, if you tech throws on reaction and know how to block ES, how can doomsday hurt you? Humans make mistakes.

why can BA not zone? doomsdays floaty jump wont get past lightning.

you also seem to forget that BA

having 14% setups on teched throws
43% midscreen mixups if he touches you
zoning for days
nullifies your trait anytime he has a bar

this matchup is 6-4 at worst for BA

you dont know the matchup at the highest lvl because godspeed never abused any of this during evo.

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

you should never be stuffing lightning cage but jumping it, f2 wont even combo to ex shake. btw,

If you get a hard knockdown you can f2 as a meaty and it will stuff the cage on it's start up frames. Grundy has something very similar with f13. f23 mb Venom gives insane corner carry and decent damage, or you can do f2 interactable bounce for a b3 combo into mb venom for really good damage and corner carry.

why can BA not zone? doomsdays floaty jump wont get past lightning.

If you have trait or a bar you can bypass pretty much all his zoning by being patient and picking your time to go in.

having 14% setups on teched throws

Set ups, not for sure. His set ups aren't amazing if you know how they work.

43% midscreen mixups if he touches you

Mix ups where he either has to waste trait or a bar to set up, and they're not hard to read if you understand Adam.

zoning for days
nullifies your trait anytime he has a bar

I already explained why both of these don't matter in the second quote.

you dont know the matchup at the highest lvl because godspeed never abused any of this during evo.

You're totally right, Godspeed's Adam is garbage he must've got lucky to get top 5 at Evo. He's also gotten lucky the multiple times he's won WNF, which is basically like a major with all the good players we have, specially if it's a week when the Vegas or NorCal guys come down.

You also forget that Adam is going to be scared of me most of the time because I'll be constantly pushing the momentum at him, and the match up is almost completely reliant on him making good choices while under my pressure, which I have the ability to read in order to keep the momentum in my favor.

 

[Vintagesoul]

BA can't zone DD, because all DD has to do is walk/block/dash to get in. Doomsday doesn't need to venom or jump to get in.

6:4 sounds fair, and that's because of the ridiculousness of BA's trait

 

[Qwark28]

If you get a hard knockdown you can f2 as a meaty and it will stuff the cage on it's start up frames. Grundy has something very similar with f13. f23 mb Venom gives insane corner carry and decent damage, or you can do f2 interactable bounce for a b3 combo into mb venom for really good damage and corner carry.


If you have trait or a bar you can bypass pretty much all his zoning by being patient and picking your time to go in.


Set ups, not for sure. His set ups aren't amazing if you know how they work.


Mix ups where he either has to waste trait or a bar to set up, and they're not hard to read if you understand Adam.


I already explained why both of these don't matter in the second quote.


You're totally right, Godspeed's Adam is garbage he must've got lucky to get top 5 at Evo. He's also gotten lucky the multiple times he's won WNF, which is basically like a major with all the good players we have, specially if it's a week when the Vegas or NorCal guys come down.

You also forget that Adam is going to be scared of me most of the time because I'll be constantly pushing the momentum at him, and the match up is almost completely reliant on him making good choices while under my pressure, which I have the ability to read in order to keep the momentum in my favor.

So you're telling me a guaranteed 14% every time adam touches you is not that great huh? and if you dont tech in time thats a fourth of your health gone and youre at 3/4 screen almost.

so his setups are not hard to read when they're unreactable and he gets a combo? and even if you get lucky to block right he is still at either +3 or +9.

explain how you deal with a move that does 6% chip, pushes back half a screen, build 0.40% of a bar back and leaves BA at +5. I explained all of this on the thread pig made, DD will not be out forever but a good 70% of things adam throws will be ex lightnings, no such thing as "block projectile, dash and repeat".

please tell me what dangerous reads have to be made if someone can block ES all day long like you saw denzel doing to you and tech grabs on reaction?

Adam will also almost always have the same or more meter than you which means EX venom will be pushblocked most of the time.

don't get your panties in a knot, i didn't say godspeed is garbage, i said he doesnt abuse some things, same thing i said with rico.

i agree with 6 4 but for other reasons.

 

[Metzos]

Also, this match up is 5-5. I play Godspeed and Smarr all the time. The mobility is the only thing that gives Adam an advantage.

Its not 5-5 Sonic. BA can literally chip DD to death and he can build bars much more efficiently than DD. DD cannot Nova on reaction, for example, against his zoning, because Nova loses to both lighting and black magic. MB Venom also loses against BA's MB lighting. Dashing and jumping will also not get him anywhere because of BA's MB lighting which pushes back on block a lot and on hit it gives BA the projectile war advantage again ofc.

BA also cannot be cornered, like at all. One good DK and he is out of the corner and from there DD must start his offense all over again. Now, i know that you can make a read if BA decides to DK but still, its a read, not a guaranteed solution. This MU is based solely on reads to win it with DD.

He also has guaranteed dmg from his trait whenever he decides to come after you. He has frame traps. His damage out put is one of the best in the game. His spacing control is probably the best in the game, his dash and back dash are probably the best in the game, he is the best anti-zoner in the game (probably), he has excellent normals, and overall he is safe in almost all of his moves. Imo its a 6-4 in BA's favor because DD can compete very well against BA's sweep sweet spot. DD's strings might be slow but they have much better range than BA's, better properties, and in general lead to untechable knock downs after a combo, which can easily turn the tables because of DD's crazy oki game. BA's wake up game becomes extremely predictable after you get used to it. Imo its a 6-4 BA, because i have played this MU A LOT against Qwark's BA and he really knows this character's BS. I suggest you hear him out when he talks.

Post edited.

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

So you're telling me a guaranteed 14% every time adam touches you is not that great huh? and if you dont tech in time thats a fourth of your health gone and youre at 3/4 screen almost.

so his setups are not hard to read when they're unreactable and he gets a combo? and even if you get lucky to block right he is still at either +3 or +9.

explain how you deal with a move that does 6% chip, pushes back half a screen, build 0.40% of a bar back and leaves BA at +5. I explained all of this on the thread pig made, DD will not be out forever but a good 70% of things adam throws will be ex lightnings, no such thing as "block projectile, dash and repeat".

please tell me what dangerous reads have to be made if someone can block ES all day long like you saw denzel doing to you and tech grabs on reaction?

Adam will also almost always have the same or more meter than you which means EX venom will be pushblocked most of the time.

don't get your panties in a knot, i didn't say godspeed is garbage, i said he doesnt abuse some things, same thing i said with rico.

i agree with 6 4 but for other reasons.

You're over exaggerating Adam's strengths. His set ups aren't unreactable, they're completely readable if you're expecting them depending on how he jumps. Plus I can reaction air throw him out of 90% of his nonsense. The only one I can't air throw him out of is an instant air divekick off 113 because of the hit stun. He's not going to be throwing ex lightning forever, and if I have trait and a bar I can easily just read a lightning and nova to get in to start my offense. If he doesn't have any bar it's extremely easy to get in with trait or meter. Nothing he does hits twice without bar, so venom is a free way in as long as you're not stupid about it. I find it funny that you bring that DJT match up. That was a week 3 Doomsday, and both of those matches were extremely close. I'm sorry I let the second/first place at EVO get inside my head the first time I played against him in a match up that I wasn't yet familiar with. If Adam is wasting meter on push blocking venom I don't have to worry about any of his damage. This back and fourth is pointless. Go ahead and think it's a 6-4. If I see you at a major I'll show you why it isn't.

I'm just going to edit all this out.

I listed counters to most of the stuff you said in my post. If Black Adam ever tries to get out of the corner with a divekick you best believe I'm going to read that and make him eat 30-40%. And even if he does, all it takes it two more bars to push him to the other corner. I'm not really concerned with how many times you've played Qwark, I play Godspeed every week. Like I said in the first quote, this is pointless. I don't gain anything from this, and neither of you are going to listen.

 

[Qwark28]

You're over exaggerating Adam's strengths. His set ups aren't unreactable, they're completely readable if you're expecting them depending on how he jumps. Plus I can reaction air throw him out of 90% of his nonsense. The only one I can't air throw him out of is an instant air divekick off 113 because of the hit stun. He's not going to be throwing ex lightning forever, and if I have trait and a bar I can easily just read a lightning and nova to get in to start my offense. If he doesn't have any bar it's extremely easy to get in with trait or meter. Nothing he does hits twice without bar, so venom is a free way in as long as you're not stupid about it. I find it funny that you bring that DJT match up. That was a week 3 Doomsday, and both of those matches were extremely close. I'm sorry I let the second/first place at EVO get inside my head the first time I played against him in a match up that I wasn't yet familiar with. If Adam is wasting meter on push blocking venom I don't have to worry about any of his damage. This back and fourth is pointless. Go ahead and think it's a 6-4. If I see you at a major I'll show you why it isn't.


I listed counters to most of the stuff you said in my post. If Black Adam ever tries to get out of the corner with a divekick you best believe I'm going to read that and make him eat 30-40%. And even if he does, all it takes it two more bars to push him to the other corner. I'm not really concerned with how many times you've played Qwark, I play Godspeed every week. Like I said in the first quote, this is pointless. I don't gain anything from this, and neither of you are going to listen.

You're taking this way too personal. My point was that you were doing ES all the time and DJT was blocking it all the time. If you wanna theory fight then if you can react to throws and block earth shake well then DD can do nothing but chip 200% of your life but that's not without human error...

So, you're saying that if BA does 113 trait, you're gonna react between a 15 and 17f overhead and crossup? You telling me that you'll react to any divekicks that are instant?

BAs setups are not from jumping. BA will not jump anywhere near you. You can not supernova a lightning on reaction even if you're traited, one wrong supernova and you're dead. B2 into trait is a free throw with 14% minimum GUARANTEED, INESCAPABLE damage.

Adam's damage does not come with meter and "wasting" isn't the word when he gets meter 3 times as fast and is TRADING it with yours while pushing you away at the same time. Adam has a 48% meterless midscreen and about up to 60 in the corner. He no longer needs to use a bar of meter because his damage scaling was nerfed. How do you not know his basic combo meter needs?

Your whole arguements revolve around "I will read this" and "I play godspeed". You have 2 people talking to you that have found a significant portion of their respective character's dirt since day 1, are we suddenly not good enough to discuss a matchup we've been playing since day 1?

Also, even with trait you will need to do ex venom because I've currently found some very nice shit vs doomsdays traited venom.

 

[Metzos]

I listed counters to most of the stuff you said in my post. If Black Adam ever tries to get out of the corner with a divekick you best believe I'm going to read that and make him eat 30-40%. And even if he does, all it takes it two more bars to push him to the other corner. I'm not really concerned with how many times you've played Qwark, I play Godspeed every week. Like I said in the first quote, this is pointless. I don't gain anything from this, and neither of you are going to listen.

If that was the point then DD would win against BA... My point still stands and you havent answered it. How are you going to win a MU which is based solely on READS. That alone makes the MU in BA's favor. Whatever BA does is safe, except his wake up game, which AGAIN must rely on a READ in order for DD to take momentum... I dont care if you play Godspeed or whatever his name is. Stop believing we are wrong about MU's, especially MU which we have been playing for 5 months now. Just because we cant attend EVO cause its expensive does not mean that we are below players who have attended EVO. All in all:

Full screen: BA wins.

Mid screen: Even (if DD has bars).

Up close: BA wins slightly.

This means: 6-4 BA.

 

[Thomas Gregersen]

Well, Jailhouse listed at 6-4 for Batgirl back before the Dive Kick Nerf. Now BG can Flying Bat punish a blocked Dive Kick.


3) Hard to smoke bomb projectiles (SM, NW, BM)

BA doesn't really have much of that. If both players play solid, BA has to do all the hard guesses.

I'm not saying BG wins free. I'm just saying as a BG player, I don't have any problems doing my thing in this matchup.

Sorry but standing, you have no chance in hell of reacting to BA's lightning or cloud with smokebomb. You say that you struggle to react to Supermans lasers, but you react to BA's zoning? Sorry but that is wrong.. Sure if you jump to avoid BA's zoning and punish, that's a different story. But Supermans zoning can be reacted to with smoke bomb (tested it countless times), but BA's? No chance.. So as long as you are standing, BA has hella advantage against BG zoning wise.

 

[RenegadeVA]

Sorry but standing, you have no chance in hell of reacting to BA's lightning or cloud with smokebomb. You say that you struggle to react to Supermans lasers, but you react to BA's zoning? Sorry but that is wrong.. Sure if you jump to avoid BA's zoning and punish, that's a different story. But Supermans zoning can be reacted to with smoke bomb (tested it countless times), but BA's? No chance.. So as long as you are standing, BA has hella advantage against BG zoning wise.

Of course most of the time you have to be in the air. That's where I suggest people buffer smoke bomb, remember?
Magic is 23f Startup and LStrike is 29. They're reactable... but it's much easier/safer to jump and then smoke bomb on reaction, b/c then you don't have to worry about the 16f startup time on Smoke Bomb being hit.

Smoke Bomb just means she full punishes adam for free everytime he tries it and misses.

With superman, if the laser is fired, you can't punish him.

Supes should never do Laser Sweep on BG, that shit is free.

But you know, I can imagine how you think BA has a zoning advantage full screen if you're just mashing down with Batgirl all day.

 

[Qwark28]

Of course most of the time you have to be in the air. That's where I suggest people buffer smoke bomb, remember?
Magic is 23f Startup and LStrike is 29. They're reactable... but it's much easier/safer to jump and then smoke bomb on reaction, b/c then you don't have to worry about the 16f startup time on Smoke Bomb being hit.

Smoke Bomb just means she full punishes adam for free everytime he tries it and misses.

With superman, if the laser is fired, you can't punish him.

Supes should never do Laser Sweep on BG, that shit is free.

But you know, I can imagine how you think BA has a zoning advantage full screen if you're just mashing down with Batgirl all day.

black magic is designed to AA, it is not reactable. Lightning strike is 26

 

[RenegadeVA]

black magic is designed to AA, it is not reactable. Lightning strike is 26

Whoops, read it upside down on my phone.

They're both extremely punishable. That's why BA's that do them get smoke bombed.

The risk/reward for BA for doing those moves against BG goes way toward risky, and could potentially cost him the round.

This guy is just annoyed at me because I said his "buffer down all the time full screen for anti zoning smoke bomb" strategy was dumb as a box of wrenches.

 

[Qwark28]

Whoops, read it upside down on my phone.

They're both extremely punishable. That's why BA's that do them get smoke bombed.

The risk/reward for BA for doing those moves against BG goes way toward risky, and could potentially cost him the round.

This guy is just annoyed at me because I said his "buffer down all the time full screen for anti zoning smoke bomb" strategy was dumb as a box of wrenches.

black magic is not punishable on reaction.

 

[RenegadeVA]

black magic is not punishable on reaction.

Sure boss.

Maybe you should look at that frame data a little longer, boss.

 

[Qwark28]

Sure boss.

Maybe you should look at that frame data a little longer, boss.

23f startup. 1o frames to react and a huge aerial hitbox.

 

[GGA HAN]

I've just recently got back into this game to try to give it another chance after taking some time off, but when playing against Jeremiah's and PL's DD (at EVO) it def. felt even. It might not be in the long run, but for now... GGA Jeremiah, how do you feel about this?

 

[Thomas Gregersen]

Of course most of the time you have to be in the air. That's where I suggest people buffer smoke bomb, remember?
Magic is 23f Startup and LStrike is 29. They're reactable... but it's much easier/safer to jump and then smoke bomb on reaction, b/c then you don't have to worry about the 16f startup time on Smoke Bomb being hit.

Smoke Bomb just means she full punishes adam for free everytime he tries it and misses.

With superman, if the laser is fired, you can't punish him.

Supes should never do Laser Sweep on BG, that shit is free.

But you know, I can imagine how you think BA has a zoning advantage full screen if you're just mashing down with Batgirl all day.

Wow childish end to the reply man.. What did I say earlier? I said DON'T just spam dd fullscreen all day. And Renegade? I was the one who mention buffering smoke bomb, NOT you. So I don't think people should take your advice on how to use batgirl. BA can also time his lighting with BG's jumping, so your suggesting people jump all day? Smart call! Can't believe why some people can't have a discussion without behaving like a child. We disagreed on something, deal with it. Yes you can react to black magic if you JUMP, not otherwise. "Sure boss".. Stupid reply to someone who was right about his facts. Black magic is 23f, you're not even specifying if you mean standing or jumping.

 

[RenegadeVA]

So I don't think people should take your advice on how to use batgirl. .

Guess not.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

For Doomsday vs. Black Adam I have gone through some thought changes on the MU. I originally thought DD destroyed Black Adam, and this was true before the Doomsday nerf. Then after the nerf I felt that it was slight advantage DD. I am now thinking the MU is even.

 

[Zatoichi]

So Black Adam has 19 easy wins? Well, Fuck.

 

[Metzos]

For Doomsday vs. Black Adam I have gone through some thought changes on the MU. I originally thought DD destroyed Black Adam, and this was true before the Doomsday nerf. Then after the nerf I felt that it was slight advantage DD. I am now thinking the MU is even.

What makes you think this MU is even? Especially after the DD nerfs. DD cannot build meter effectively in this MU cause BA can zone the shit out of him. Trait means nothing, cause on block and hit, MB lighting has a hell of a push back. DD cannot get in with Nova, except on a read, because it loses to both lighting and black magic. The only place where DD has a slight advantage is at sweep range, cause of his excellent d1, d3 and MB Venom if he has bars. BA has a lot more options which are also safer than DD in the particular MU.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

What makes you think this MU is even? Especially after the DD nerfs. DD cannot build meter effectively in this MU cause BA can zone the shit out of him. Trait means nothing, cause on block and hit, MB lighting has a hell of a push back. DD cannot get in with Nova, except on a read, because it loses to both lighting and black magic. The only place where DD has a slight advantage is at sweep range, cause of his excellent d1, d3 and MB Venom if he has bars. BA has a lot more options which are also safer than DD in the particular MU.

Doomsday's corner push and corner pressure. But maybe it is BA advantage.

 

[Metzos]

Doomsday's corner push and corner pressure. But maybe it is BA advantage.

Agreed, but the real problem lies at how you are going to corner him when he can just push you back with EX lightings and when he can just DK away from the corner if a chance is given. And since he builds a shit ton of meter spamming MB lightings wont be a problem. After that, DD has to chase him down again. This MU relies solely on reads in order for DD to win it. That doesnt apply for BA though. All he needs is to touch you twice and you are dead and thats not hard at all with all those frame traps he has. In general his tools are better than DD's. Thats why i believe its in BA's favor.