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Match-up Discussion Nightwing Matchup Discussion

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XxM3LLOxX

CORN WulfGangM3LLO
Can anybody tell me their opinion on the NW-WW match up. i play this WW player online a lot named DarkSadoDragon, most of the time I'm down at least 4-5 games at least when we jus run a random crack session. Regardless this match up is annoying, normally i don't go in, i usually play extra patient against wonder woman. whenever i get the momentum and get a knockdown I'm taking life fast, at the same time her backdash kills my momentum soon or he'll find someway to get away. IMO im scared to challenge her to footsies is Escrima, i usually switch to Big Dick Grayson(Staff) and not be as worried. EVERYTIME he hits me no matter how and where i lose 30+. My Fellow Dicks....what are u guys intake and strategies against this amazonian whore :mad:
 

Cosmic_Castaway

Flying Grayson
Can anybody tell me their opinion on the NW-WW match up. i play this WW player online a lot named DarkSadoDragon, most of the time I'm down at least 4-5 games at least when we jus run a random crack session. Regardless this match up is annoying, normally i don't go in, i usually play extra patient against wonder woman. whenever i get the momentum and get a knockdown I'm taking life fast, at the same time her backdash kills my momentum soon or he'll find someway to get away. IMO im scared to challenge her to footsies is Escrima, i usually switch to Big Dick Grayson(Staff) and not be as worried. EVERYTIME he hits me no matter how and where i lose 30+. My Fellow Dicks....what are u guys intake and strategies against this amazonian whore :mad:

It's probably one of the most fun and interesting matchups in the game, due to both characters having so many tools, but only being able to selectively use them. Probably 5-5 because they both have tools for pretty much every situation. First note, respect her frames (especially when she's in Shield Stance) and you'll generally be okay. Make sure you don't jump on her too much either. She has really good d2s in both stances, most notably Lasso.

From what I've played of the matchup (which is a lot, btw) Staff vs. Lasso and Escrima vs. Shield are your optimal situations. However, note that it is dependent on how the match is going, too.

Overall, in Staff vs. Lasso, you will need those j2s and Flying Graysons to keep her out of the air (j2 is better though). Staff pound is kind of useless until you make her realize that going up there carries a heavy price. It doesn't help that she can TK air charge into you to punish it from fullscreen too. A more rush-heavy WW won't be as much of a threat while you're in Staff because you'll be able to live at a range where her only real option is b2. Also, if she has you fullscreen while you're in staff, just switch to Escrima and get back in there.

Vs. Shield stance, I know it's tempting to play the footsies game with her using Staff. "Ha, mine's bigger than yours!" Yeah yeah, we get it. But in this stance, Wonder Woman stays grounded. She is begging you to play that game on her terms because that's what the stance is made for. You don't go in raw with your Dick. You use Escrima's mobility and ground spark to make her come to you. From there, you can start the footsie game because the ball's in your court; she's playing your game. Whip out Staff when she tries to challenge you, and then blow her up for her mistakes.

Additionally, if she is at a life lead and goes into Shield stance, do not stay in Staff and try to zone her. Matter of fact, don't try to keep her out at all; go in. Here, you'll need the mobility and buttons (j3, d1, 1, f2, b2, u3, etc.) from Escrima to get something going. Shield stance makes it very easy to wait opponents out at a life lead. Don't let happen by playing too patiently. You'll be able to save some extra meter in this matchup, too, in order to pushblock Shield, because you won't be spending a lot on MB staff pound. That move is not nearly as useful here as it is in other matchups.

As far as wakeups go, the most common ones are Lasso Spin and Shield Bash. Lasso spin is fully punishable with pretty much whatever you want (iirc), but Shield Bash can be MB'ed for +frames. If you can bait a couple of Lasso Spins and punish her, you should be good on that front whenever you get a knockdown. But definitely just respect her wakeups in Shield unless you have a setup to reverse them, or she has no meter.

The best way to prepare for this matchup are to play heavily in one stance and see how you can deal with what each of WW's stances has to offer. I used to play straight Escrima or Staff matches against the local WW player to work on what possible answers I had in any given situation. But it really does come down to who is the better player and has more knowledge of how both characters work imo.

That's pretty much it off the top of my head.
 

TheBoyBlunder

They love my Grayson
Call me crazy but I really don't think GL is 7-3. 6-4 at worst. Like Staff just shits on him imo. Sure, the GL can play really, really safe and come out on top, but that's just how the matchup works, that's how the character is designed. It's one of those matchups you have to play over and over to work on and get comfortable in, like Superman. GL has really good ways to keep you off him while you have great ways of staying in (notice I did not say getting in, that can be a chore). But, the dude has no real mixup until he actually hits you with the 50/50 reset between b1 or f3 off a confirm. Like so many of NW's matchups against spacing/zoning/keepaway characters, it's one of those "get into Escrima until you're in, push your advantage with Staff" situations. You will have to take risks and make reads, but hey, welcome to fighting games.

Idk why everyone's set on backdashing b1 either. He doesn't get great advantage on it unless he does MB bf1. At least according to the frame data that's the case. Even MB gatling is apparently -2 on block.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not picking up other characters to "solve" bad matchups. The only thing that truly solves them is you becoming better as a player. Different characters may cushion learning the matchup, but they by no means solve them.

That last paragraph is golden.
If I main someone, I main them...for all matchups.
 

TheBoyBlunder

They love my Grayson
Also, no matter what I do I still get bodied by hawkgirl. Crazy fast attacks with no opening to attack

You're not alone. Hawkgirl is safe as fuck on most of her attacks. I try to punish her but no success. Even when I'm blocking all her strings and her mace doesn't touch me, the offensive attack on Hawkgirl is inconsistent due to her movement all full screen. I believe once you have Hawkgirl in the corner where the screen is zoomed in, thats your best chance to do damage.

Only if the Flying Dick could get up a little higher in the air to send her dirty winged ass back to the ground where it belongs.
 

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
I've played tons of sets with MF Slayer's WW, and the write up above covers a lot of good points about the matchup. One thing you have to remember, is that you have to respect WW's plus frames in a lot of situations. Understand what is plus and what isn't, and as long as you play patient you'll be fine. Staying in staff while she is in lasso is also what I recommend. WW has no reason to stay grounded against you, so look to air to air jumps with j2, and reaction flying Graysons. Understand her corner OTG game, and watch for crossups dive/throws in the corner. If the WW is going for b2 pressure into df1, then make sure you duck the df1, and you can contest after with b2 in escrima/other options in staff depending on the range.

Also, don't let them get away with waking up over and over on you. Make sure the WW player understands you are going to punish the shit out of lasso spin every time, and then you can start running more mixups/oki after that.
 

Trip Se7ens

Nom Nom
I am so free to f23 from supes, b13 GL, divekick and b23 BA, slide from kf, j2 and b23 from Batman, and any grappler. #dick4free
 

Cosmic_Castaway

Flying Grayson
I am so free to f23 from supes, b13 GL, divekick and b23 BA, slide from kf, j2 and b23 from Batman, and any grappler. #dick4free
Well four out of five of those can be solved thusly: Never assume someone is going to do anything smart or advanced until they actually do it. Always just think that people are going to do the basic, braindead month 1 garbage. Once they have shown you, as an opponent, that they are actually good, then you can move your own thinking forward. Until then, just d2'ing those Batmen, blocking high all day on those BAs and Supes, blocking low at slide range on KF, etc.

Now grapplers, that's a different story. Generally speaking, a grappler's mindgame is, "If you block then I'm grabbing you and you're gonna hold that." But then they aim to scare you into not moving, into not playing your game. If we're talking about Bane, then there's really no reason you should be losing. He has nothing for you to be scared of as long as you space yourself well and just stay at range where he can't touch you. What's he going to do, lvl1 armored charge through? Easily baited, as he really has no other options than to take tons of chip on the way in. Grundy's not really a pure grappler imo per se. Just treat him like he's a better Bane with a projectile you have to respect and you should be okay. Shazam, however, is a hella legit character with a real grab mixup game. If he can successfully scare you into doing things on your wakeup, his wakeup game gets ten times better. Don't ever let him completely shut off your wakeup options in your mind. He should be aware that you are more than willing to take a risk every now and again. Basically, stay on the move against grapplers, don't let them get close (Shazam has an okay ranged game though so fighting him up close is kind of whatever, approach that matchup how you want), and never let them mindfuck you.
 

Trip Se7ens

Nom Nom
Well four out of five of those can be solved thusly: Never assume someone is going to do anything smart or advanced until they actually do it. Always just think that people are going to do the basic, braindead month 1 garbage. Once they have shown you, as an opponent, that they are actually good, then you can move your own thinking forward. Until then, just d2'ing those Batmen, blocking high all day on those BAs and Supes, blocking low at slide range on KF, etc.

Now grapplers, that's a different story. Generally speaking, a grappler's mindgame is, "If you block then I'm grabbing you and you're gonna hold that." But then they aim to scare you into not moving, into not playing your game. If we're talking about Bane, then there's really no reason you should be losing. He has nothing for you to be scared of as long as you space yourself well and just stay at range where he can't touch you. What's he going to do, lvl1 armored charge through? Easily baited, as he really has no other options than to take tons of chip on the way in. Grundy's not really a pure grappler imo per se. Just treat him like he's a better Bane with a projectile you have to respect and you should be okay. Shazam, however, is a hella legit character with a real grab mixup game. If he can successfully scare you into doing things on your wakeup, his wakeup game gets ten times better. Don't ever let him completely shut off your wakeup options in your mind. He should be aware that you are more than willing to take a risk every now and again. Basically, stay on the move against grapplers, don't let them get close (Shazam has an okay ranged game though so fighting him up close is kind of whatever, approach that matchup how you want), and never let them mindfuck you.
Should I just always be in Staff stance? I'm starting to learn that the range on Escrima is awful and that no one respects my low game in them unless I poke with f213 xx ground sparks... f213's range is pretty laughable too. :(
 

Cosmic_Castaway

Flying Grayson
Should I just always be in Staff stance? I'm starting to learn that the range on Escrima is awful and that no one respects my low game in them unless I poke with f213 xx ground sparks... f213's range is pretty laughable too. :(
No, Escrima is pretty slept on by NWs in general. To get them to respect your low game, you have to use d3, u3, and u3d3. b1,3 is pretty good too, but use it sparingly. If they take enough damage from your mixup game off knockdowns, they'll eventually want to duck. Like, it's gonna happen lol.

Staff will also fuck you over in certain situations and matchups. Like vs. Wonder Woman Shield, or Superman, or GL. Unless you have an advantage or momentum already, you should be in Escrima for these.

b2 is a great poke in escrima, too. As are 1, b1, and d1.

As it is right now, people are learning to fight Staff, and NWs keep neglecting Escrima even though it's great. That just makes them way more beatable. You can't just sit in Staff all day, be a Staff master, and expect to win against someone who understands NW. Just keep at it, spend more time with Escrima, and you'll be comfortable with it in no time.

Sent from the Batcave
 

TheBoyBlunder

They love my Grayson
No, Escrima is pretty slept on by NWs in general. To get them to respect your low game, you have to use d3, u3, and u3d3. b1,3 is pretty good too, but use it sparingly. If they take enough damage from your mixup game off knockdowns, they'll eventually want to duck. Like, it's gonna happen lol.

Staff will also fuck you over in certain situations and matchups. Like vs. Wonder Woman Shield, or Superman, or GL. Unless you have an advantage or momentum already, you should be in Escrima for these.

b2 is a great poke in escrima, too. As are 1, b1, and d1.

As it is right now, people are learning to fight Staff, and NWs keep neglecting Escrima even though it's great. That just makes them way more beatable. You can't just sit in Staff all day, be a Staff master, and expect to win against someone who understands NW. Just keep at it, spend more time with Escrima, and you'll be comfortable with it in no time.

Sent from the Batcave

I've been spending more time with staff lately because the first 1000-2000 matches under NW it was under escrima.
I like the overheads, love B23, D12EscrimaFury and ending combos in a flip kick or J3WingDing.

When I find myself in a tight cautious situation, Escrima is on for cross ups and more speed and mobility. Only if we were able to jump higher and move faster with the staff, NW would be so OP lol.

But in all seriousness, I am trying to definitely a feel for the hit box in staff, trying to whiff less and be more effective overall. I'm improving slowly.
 

Trip Se7ens

Nom Nom
Can you punish ANYTHING with f213? I feel like half of the time I just block in Escrima. :( I block and they block low so I do b2 drumline into j3. wingdings bc online its tough to link the 3 after b2 for me... if they are blocking high, I just sweep or b1d3. Theres gotta be someway we can get into f213
 

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
Escrima is my go too stance in most situations, unless I want staff for a specific matchup.

Switching between both stances in a match is needed, but staff is not that great if your opponent understands how to deal with it/backdash. Staff is good for zoning/corner pressure but escrima's corner game is equally as strong if not better. Lots of people thing staff is great because people don't backdash out of pressure, punish YOLO flying Graysons, or just understand the matchup. The more NW experience my opponent has, the less I rely on staff.

There are certain matchups where I will stay in staff full time, mostly against character who are forced to try and rush NW down. Anybody who is forced to advance on staff is probably going to struggle dealing with staff's options, but that only applies to a handful of matchups.
 

Trip Se7ens

Nom Nom
Trying
Escrima is my go too stance in most situations, unless I want staff for a specific matchup.

Switching between both stances in a match is needed, but staff is not that great if your opponent understands how to deal with it/backdash. Staff is good for zoning/corner pressure but escrima's corner game is equally as strong if not better. Lots of people thing staff is great because people don't backdash out of pressure, punish YOLO flying Graysons, or just understand the matchup. The more NW experience my opponent has, the less I rely on staff.

There are certain matchups where I will stay in staff full time, mostly against character who are forced to try and rush NW down. Anybody who is forced to advance on staff is probably going to struggle dealing with staff's options, but that only applies to a handful of matchups.
to watch all of your NW videos to see if I can learn. Currently watching the b2 video
 

Cosmic_Castaway

Flying Grayson
Can you punish ANYTHING with f213? I feel like half of the time I just block in Escrima. :( I block and they block low so I do b2 drumline into j3. wingdings bc online its tough to link the 3 after b2 for me... if they are blocking high, I just sweep or b1d3. Theres gotta be someway we can get into f213
Unless the move is -10, no you can't. Usually 1,1,3 will be your go-to string for punishment.

f2,1,3 is a pretty good poke, and NWs most damaging launcher, sure, but I find myself not using it that much for whatever reason. Just don't get stuck on using it tbh.

Sent from the Batcave
 

TheBoyBlunder

They love my Grayson
Can you punish ANYTHING with f213? I feel like half of the time I just block in Escrima. :( I block and they block low so I do b2 drumline into j3. wingdings bc online its tough to link the 3 after b2 for me... if they are blocking high, I just sweep or b1d3. Theres gotta be someway we can get into f213

against Shazam when he does his Raiden tornado body spin with the MB, it automatically changes sides....so if you're use to punishing special moves with B23....you will end up doing F2...so just be ready to follow the 13 right after with a 4 into staff spin or ground blast combo.
 

Trip Se7ens

Nom Nom
against Shazam when he does his Raiden tornado body spin with the MB, it automatically changes sides....so if you're use to punishing special moves with B23....you will end up doing F2...so just be ready to follow the 13 right after with a 4 into staff spin or ground blast combo.
Will f213 reach?
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Sajam explained it perfectly.

NW vs WW is a cat and mouse stance switch fest. It's really fun when you know it. Like, REALLY fun.

Murph and I play it a lot.

Escrima for shield stance, Staff for lasso stance. Escrima if she starts trying to air charge you all the time Staff if she is just going to constantly try b2'ing you.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
THTB and I feel the GL matchup is only a 6-4. The key is to use Escrima and his f3 + wave dashing to punish green lantern and get into staff. If he pushblocks you either option is a flying grayson back in (duck the oa rocket, block the air oa rocket) and then grayson your ass back in.

It's a fun matchup, but nightwing CAN compete...
 

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
Sajam explained it perfectly.

NW vs WW is a cat and mouse stance switch fest. It's really fun when you know it. Like, REALLY fun.

Murph and I play it a lot.

Escrima for shield stance, Staff for lasso stance. Escrima if she starts trying to air charge you all the time Staff if she is just going to constantly try b2'ing you.
Yeah, it's one of my favorite matchups to play. Slayer and I always have the craziest/most close sets of all time. Plus he always yells out "For TheMyscira!" mid match and I almost die in laughter.
 

TheBoyBlunder

They love my Grayson
Hawkgirl's charge...is it a good idea to back dash then B2 when she wakes up with the charge? Give me some insight on this. I've went through hell today with a Hawkgirl player that put in my ass for a good 5 matches.
 
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