Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[Qwark28]

Well the only thing that connect are 11 d1 and I think b1 cuz you lose a lot of frames from landing but if you have meter 11 mb RLG combos after for around 40ish dmg with the teeth loop hit some1 with that a couple times and they will be scared to block low and like I said it stop certain wake ups completely

any wakeups stopped are those that will never be used, as joker you should be baiting them anyways

this is nice but doesnt look viable, on block you can be punished with a fatality given the recovery

 

[LOECYPHER]

I've stopped venom on all wake up options except meteor smash and super and most attempts work bcuz people think that you are going foe a cross up. There's a few that get thought such as frost slide but that's bcuz she slides across the ground and green lantern lift even on a cross up I get hit by tat thing nut yeah it snuffs alot of wake ups and this is supposed to mix In with lows anyway it works try it for awhile and watch how people react to it free lows for fear of insta overhead 2

 

[Qwark28]

I've stopped venom on all wake up options except meteor smash and super and most attempts work bcuz people think that you are going foe a cross up. There's a few that get thought such as frost slide but that's bcuz she slides across the ground and green lantern lift even on a cross up I get hit by tat thing nut yeah it snuffs alot of wake ups and this is supposed to mix In with lows anyway it works try it for awhile and watch how people react to it free lows for fear of insta overhead 2

those lows wont make up for that one 40+% combo youll eat if the overhead is blocked

air venom is fully invincible, you cant hit doomsday out of it

GLs lift shouldnt be a problem if you end your combos with the right ender for the ambiguous crossup setup

 

[medhood]

Sorry about the double post just need to say the the jump is a neutral jump straight up

You know there is an edit button.

 

[Jaku2011]

Little Scorpion tidbit throwing teeth and dash forward is a pretty good way to make Scorpion think twice about teleporting, I got blown up by it a few times the other day.

 

[Big Fetus]

I'm pretty new to Injustice, so maybe I'm just missing some stuff here, but I find I'm having issues online dealing with Scorpion and Deathstroke.

Scorpion's was destroying me with teleports, til I realized I could crouch to avoid em. Started doing that, did ok for a little bit, but then he'd just start spamming that hellfire, so I couldn't just crouch and wait for him. Started trying to move in on him, but it's like every time I dash, he teleports. I try BANG! and he teleports. I walk, he hellfires. I jump, he teleports. I cannot for the life of me figure it out.

As for Deathstoke, it's mostly just on certain stages. Mostly, staging with an interactible he can abuse. Atlantis, for example, he'll sit at the very edge shooting me, and use the little wheels to get that water burst if I even start to get close. Or, I think it's Metropolis, with the little explosive robot interactibles, he'll click one and shoot in the air. Just launches me back even more.

Any help?

 

[Student]

I'm pretty new to Injustice, so maybe I'm just missing some stuff here, but I find I'm having issues online dealing with Scorpion and Deathstroke.

Scorpion's was destroying me with teleports, til I realized I could crouch to avoid em. Started doing that, did ok for a little bit, but then he'd just start spamming that hellfire, so I couldn't just crouch and wait for him. Started trying to move in on him, but it's like every time I dash, he teleports. I try BANG! and he teleports. I walk, he hellfires. I jump, he teleports. I cannot for the life of me figure it out.

As for Deathstoke, it's mostly just on certain stages. Mostly, staging with an interactible he can abuse. Atlantis, for example, he'll sit at the very edge shooting me, and use the little wheels to get that water burst if I even start to get close. Or, I think it's Metropolis, with the little explosive robot interactibles, he'll click one and shoot in the air. Just launches me back even more.

Any help?

Well, I'm still learning, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. When it comes to Scorpion, I always try to approach him, but much more cautiously. I try my best to walk up to him and always be ready to crouch on a TP or dash/jump a hellfire. Assuming the frame data is correct, if you crouch his non-MB teleport, you should be able to get a full combo punish pretty easily. It's even more punishable if you block it. If he meter burns it, it's basically safe. Scorpion has good jump normals as well, and so being quick to AA him when you're close is important. Also, I notice a lot of Scorpions do f3 pretty often because opponents duck so often, so it's important to know what that looks like.

With Deathstroke, I actually had a similar experience to you playing ranked one night where I kept coming across this DS that zoned hard. I eventually just resorted to crouch dashing in and taking the chip on low guns, and when I got close he'd either jump in or sword flip. Sword flip is punishable on block, so I'd combo him and he'd invariably sword flip on wake up, and I'd punish that too. Eventually, they'll stop sword flipping as much and then you can take some risks and jump in on them some more. In my experience however, I'm not sure there's much you can do against a zoning DS who has a corner interactable. It's possible that you can dash in like normal and MB b3 or f3 the interactable and maintain pressure, but that's tough. I'm probably overlooking a lot of good stuff, but this is just from personal experience in these match ups.

 

[MetaSkipper]

Probably not super useful, but I hear close teeth+forward dash helps deter teleports. Might dodgle hellfire too.

 

[Student]

Probably not super useful, but I hear close teeth+forward dash helps deter teleports. Might dodgle hellfire too.

I'm not sure if its the MB or non-MB version of the teleport, but sometimes when I close teeth and just crouch, the teleport will push me forward and Scorpion will get hit by the teeth.

 

[Big Fetus]

Sadly, I don't own (or have money to buy atm ;D) Scorpion, so can't exactly go in training with him to test/practice with him. But I'll keep the hints in mind anytime I run into him. And I think I did notice the teeth hitting him after a teleport. That helped a lot against him using teleport on wakeup, especially.

As for Deathstroke, he's not too difficult if he doesn't have an interactible to abuse. Didn't try the armored 3s. I'll try that out and see what happens. Hopefully helps some. Mostly I found myself just trying to get him onto a stage without those sorts of interactibles.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

A pretty funny way to stop teleport-happy scorpions is to throw out teeth and then dash in front of them. You gain ground while avoiding hellfires, and if they try to teleport they fly right into the teeth for whatever combo you want to do from there. Won't work all the time, but it's good to keep in mind.

You can also parry the teleport if you see it coming. Easy to do against people that use it a lot, but not so much against smarter players.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

A pretty funny way to stop teleport-happy scorpions is to throw out teeth and then dash in front of them. You gain ground while avoiding hellfires, and if they try to teleport they fly right into the teeth for whatever combo you want to do from there. Won't work all the time, but it's good to keep in mind.

You can also parry the teleport if you see it coming. Easy to do against people that use it a lot, but not so much against smarter players.

I usually go with parry. Teleport has 23 startup frames, so as long as you are on your toes (which you have to be against a good Scorpion), it's not to bad to land on reaction since it's a single input (not much different from pressing down to block on reaction).
The teeth is a cool idea though- actually get's a setup in. Not sure a good Scorpion is gonna give you enough time to pull it off though.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

I usually go with parry. Teleport has 23 startup frames, so as long as you are on your toes (which you have to be against a good Scorpion), it's not to bad to land on reaction since it's a single input (not much different from pressing down to block on reaction).
The teeth is a cool idea though- actually get's a setup in. Not sure a good Scorpion is gonna give you enough time to pull it off though.

Yeah if you're on point with your reactions then parry is surely a more solid option. Throwing teeth out is probably easier to pull off for a beginner though. Idk how viable it actually is against really good players, but nobody seems to do much about it so far. I usually throw them after I dodge a spear or hellfire, or if I knock them far back and have the time. It's gimmicky I suppose, but it denies them an option at least.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah if you're on point with your reactions then parry is surely a more solid option. Throwing teeth out is probably easier to pull off for a beginner though. Idk how viable it actually is against really good players, but nobody seems to do much about it so far. I usually throw them after I dodge a spear or hellfire, or if I knock them far back and have the time. It's gimmicky I suppose, but it denies them an option at least.

Yup, should definitely work against alot of people and you get a setup out of it . Higher level players will probably be able to react to it and punish you though (at least with hellfire).

 

[Jack White]

I have vital information about how to fight the Zatanna match up to show you all!

Spoiler

 

[Minh Giang]

Don't know if it was posted before:

reading the comments is even more cringeworthy lol.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

Don't know if it was posted before:
-snip-
reading the comments is even more cringeworthy lol.

Wtf cheap infinite combo bullshit omg

He must've been playing against 5 year olds.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Not sure if we talked about this anywhere yet or not, but I'm starting to think Joker vs Superman is a 5-5, maybe 4-6 at the worst. Gun doesn't whiff on his lasers, so you can counterzone on reaction alot of the time (at least I feel like I am, and I think my reactions are kinda slow tbh...), jump-> lasers is slow enough that you can actually land a HLG with a correct read, and Superman's use f23 or f3 in the corner so much that landing parries is actually pretty easy... Like Superman, we also have pretty awesome corner damage when we get people there. His rising grab get him out of most resets, but you can backdash b3 -> combo it or mb f3 it to keep them in a corner reset (I think, though it might go over it or something). Just comes down to alot of good reads. Thoughts?

 

[Qwark28]

Not sure if we talked about this anywhere yet or not, but I'm starting to think Joker vs Superman is a 5-5, maybe 4-6 at the worst. Gun doesn't whiff on his lasers, so you can counterzone on reaction alot of the time (at least I feel like I am, and I think my reactions are kinda slow tbh...), jump-> lasers is slow enough that you can actually land a HLG with a correct read, and Superman's use f23 or f3 in the corner so much that landing parries is actually pretty easy... Like Superman, we also have pretty awesome corner damage when we get people there. His rising grab get him out of most resets, but you can backdash b3 -> combo it or mb f3 it to keep them in a corner reset (I think, though it might go over it or something). Just comes down to alot of good reads. Thoughts?

No way. We get 11% from a parry, he gets 45% by easily baiting it.

No superman will not do instant air lasers, even on a read you can't do anything for them.

In the corner we have nowhere close to the damage damage, he does 70% we do barely 50%

 

[StevoSuprem0]

No way. We get 11% from a parry, he gets 45% by easily baiting it.

No superman will not do instant air lasers, even on a read you can't do anything for them.

In the corner we have nowhere close to the damage damage, he does 70% we do barely 50%

For instant air lasers, don't they stay low enough for the gun to catch them? Maybe not, just a thought.
And yeah, he beats out our corner damage currently, but that's the case for everyone against Superman lol. I think our reset potential in the corner trumps his, and with a good reset we push 80% in the corner.
You're definitely right that the risk/reward isn't there on the parry, I have just been having pretty good luck with it lately. And you can parry even MB f3 on reaction pretty easy (right? or is MB not parry-able?), which has become a bigger part of his game.
The gun works really well to counterzone/outzone him I think. If he tries jumping and dashing it, j3 him. You will frequently catch them with it as they try to jump, and it is faster than heat zap and such.

 

[Qwark28]

For instant air lasers, don't they stay low enough for the gun to catch them? Maybe not, just a thought.
And yeah, he beats out our corner damage currently, but that's the case for everyone against Superman lol. I think our reset potential in the corner trumps his, and with a good reset we push 80% in the corner.
You're definitely right that the risk/reward isn't there on the parry, I have just been having pretty good luck with it lately. And you can parry even MB f3 on reaction pretty easy (right? or is MB not parry-able?), which has become a bigger part of his game.
The gun works really well to counterzone/outzone him I think. If he tries jumping and dashing it, j3 him. You will frequently catch them with it as they try to jump, and it is faster than heat zap and such.

MB F3 is not big on his game, he has no mixup potential.

You will catch instant lasers but youre still not catching anything else with the high gas and in the corner you rely on guessing right just to reach his damage.

It's very easy to get past joker's "zoning" since its more of an interrupting other zoners momentum thing.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

MB F3 is not big on his game, he has no mixup potential.

You will catch instant lasers but youre still not catching anything else with the high gas and in the corner you rely on guessing right just to reach his damage.

It's very easy to get past joker's "zoning" since its more of an interrupting other zoners momentum thing.

Yeah that's why I'd concede that it might be a 4-6 because Superman simply does things that Joker can do well better and can get around our teeth stuff. But his zoning is easy to counterzone and up close they suffer the same issues of poor mixup options. b1 is no f2, but if you're good at spacing you can do some good things with it to counter f23 bullshit. I tend to feel that fight comes down more to who's making the reads and playing better as opposed to being put in situations that not much can be done about.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Here are a some great matches from last night featuring EMP Dark 's Joker. Few things to note before watching:
1.) He plays Joker in a very cerebral way. Meaning his jump in mix up's and gun shot/cancel mix up's are VERY hard to adapt to.
2.)I'm free to the cross-over tech.
3.) I have absolutely no idea how to escape the teeth "vortex" thingy he got me in constantly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to block the teeth low...but then I have to worry about his cross over jump...ugh it killed me.
4.) I think he struggled against my HawkGirl more so than my KF.

StevoSuprem0

 

[StevoSuprem0]

As KF you need to slide out of the teeth traps. It's a read thing- if he goes for an overhead/teeth setup, you slide out (only a MB f3 will get you in this case), if he reads that and blocks instead, he'll catch you, in which case you can not slide and just block low or jump back. Also, hawkgirl sucks for Joker. Really hard to deal with her because he can't get her out of the air.
I'm off to slaughter house to try to represent Joker! I'll check these out when I get back and do some breakdowns. Really appreciate it EMP Dark and RunwayMafia!

 

[RunwayMafia]

As KF you need to slide out of the teeth traps. It's a read thing- if he goes for an overhead/teeth setup, you slide out (only a MB f3 will get you in this case), if he reads that and blocks instead, he'll catch you, in which case you can not slide and just block low or jump back. Also, hawkgirl sucks for Joker. Really hard to deal with her because he can't get her out of the air.
I'm off to slaughter house to try to represent Joker! I'll check these out when I get back and do some breakdowns. Really appreciate it EMP Dark and RunwayMafia!

I'm pretty sure I was mashing wake up slide and he still caught me...yeah check them out and confirm what I'm supposed to do. I end up "winning" the set 30-25 but there are some extremely close matches and high octane moments...and a ton of momentum switches along the way. (sorry, didn't mean to sound like a used car salesman there). And good luck at Slaughter House!