Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[killa_solid]

I'm pretty sure I was mashing wake up slide and he still caught me...yeah check them out and confirm what I'm supposed to do. I end up "winning" the set 30-25 but there are some extremely close matches and high octane moments...and a ton of momentum switches along the way. (sorry, didn't mean to sound like a used car salesman there). And good luck at Slaughter House!

You got to reverse you wake up. But the way to block it is you bock the jump, then the teeth, not the other way around as you seems to have been trying to do. It's similar to Doomsday's earthshake, but a bit easier imo.

 

[RunwayMafia]

You got to reverse you wake up. But the way to block it is you bock the jump, then the teeth, not the other way around as you seems to have been trying to do. It's similar to Doomsday's earthshake, but a bit easier imo.

Ohhhh...well shit..I'll be dammed. Yes, I was blocking the teeth first...so instead I block high (the jump) and then duck the teeth?

 

[killa_solid]

Ohhhh...well shit..I'll be dammed. Yes, I was blocking the teeth first...so instead I block high (the jump) and then duck the teeth?

ya but be careful though, if they do teeth into neutral jump 3 sometimes you gotta block low then high like you were doing, but I didnt see dark go for that, but I didnt watch everything either.

 

[RunwayMafia]

ya but be careful though, if they do teeth into neutral jump 3 you gotta block lw then high like you were doing, but I didnt see dark go for that, but I didnt watch everything either.

He used a myriad of different approaches to his set ups...which is why they were so effective. He made me respect his up close game so much that I ended up zoning far more than usual with KF.

 

[killa_solid]

He used a myriad of different approaches to his set ups...which is why they were so effective. He made me respect his up close game so much that I ended up zoning far more than usual with KF.

ya you gotta be really on you toes when joker players get a background bounce knockdown but with a bit of practice its very doable. At least all the other ones without the bounce can be rolled out of ( I think).

 

[StevoSuprem0]

He tim a myriad of different approaches to his set ups...which is why they were so effective. He made me respect his up close game so much that I ended up zoning far more than usual with KF.

If timed right, the low and overhead hit at the same time. Some characters struggle with it more than others. Is KFs slide not invincible for a bit on wakeup?

 

[RunwayMafia]

If timed right, the low and overhead hit at the same time. Some characters struggle with it more than others. Is KFs slide not invincible for a bit on wakeup?

I believe it is...KF is my third character and I haven't really studied her...but I believe so. In reality, we can discuss this and that for hours, but when you are fighting a Joker like his...in the heat of battle...it's hard to compute what to block and when to wake up etc., etc.,...

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I believe it is...KF is my third character and I haven't really studied her...but I believe so. In reality, we can discuss this and that for hours, but when you are fighting a Joker like his...in the heat of battle...it's hard to compute what to block and when to wake up etc., etc.,...

Yeah I'm just throwing it out there, that's how people get out of those setups when I'm using them. Sometimes you can block, but it's all about the wakeups if you've got em.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah those Hawkgirl matches are confirming my fears for that matchup. Joker has alot of trouble opening her up because of the range on his normals vs her ability to pressure while spacing things out and he doesn't have much to do against her when she's in the air.
EMP Dark, good shit. Your patience is definitely clutch; that's something I gotta work on. One thing I would suggest, if I may, is to incorporate 212 into the neutral game more. You seem to run 113 more, which is good in that it's an 8f startup and is +1 on block, while 212 is 11f startup and neutral on block, however 212 is a much bigger part of Joker's mindgames. First off, you can block confirm into 213 instead to finish with an overhead (and this is +1 on block) AND is a hard KD- makes for an interesting ghetto 50/50 here on whether or not you're going to cancel into MB RLG (low). Speaking of which, you can hitconfirm into RLG for a combo, so the options there are huge. Another big gimmick that you might be aware of is the free teeth thing- you can do 212 and cancel into teeth at the end, and block before corps charge can catch you, meaning it's a completely safe setup. If they try to pursue, push block them into teeth for a combo, and if not, you can establish pressure. I tend to only use the 32 string to get into combos when I know I can for a full combo punish because the 15f startup is a bit slow and the options are more limited (also, you can let the second knife hit of 32 hit and then go into RLG).
Some other random combo optimization stuff- in the corner you can do starter, MB RLG, d2 teeth, j2, teeth, 3 flower, 3 2 teeth for low 40%s (or flower to just terminate for mid 40%s and stand them up) and follow with a j3 or mb f3 and combo from there. Whenever you reset with a teeth and j3 setup, the best case (I think) is teeth, j3, teeth, j2, teeth, 3 flower, 3 2 teeth (to keep setups going) or flower (terminate for damage) for 48-52%.
Sorry if you already knew all this, just thought it might be worth throwing out there if you didn't! Thanks again for the matches.

 

[YOMI DJT]

Ok so what do you joker mains think of gl vs joker mu? I think it is 6-4 gl.

 

[Qwark28]

Ok so what do you joker mains think of gl vs joker mu? I think it is 6-4 gl.

Ok so what do you joker mains think of gl vs joker mu? I think it is 6-4 gl.

7 3 GL. Joker can't jump, can't pressure, can't play footsies or out zone GL. Gun is liftable and joker has no good advancing moves, sweeps liftable too

 

[YOMI DJT]

7 3 GL. Joker can't jump, can't pressure, can't play footsies or out zone GL. Gun is liftable and joker has no good advancing moves, sweeps liftable too

So gun is liftable on block or that is on whiff?
So basically Gl fucks him sounds about right.
Maybe I am just being too nice about joker aha.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

So gun is liftable on block or that is on whiff?
So basically Gl fucks him sounds about right.
Maybe I am just being too nice about joker aha.

Yeah the fact that sweep is so punishable hurts him a lot in this matchup because of the reach on lift. No good options for opening GL up if they play at all safe. Not a good time. I think lift only punishes gun if they duck it... possible that it works on block, but I can't say for sure.

 

[Flash_Lantern]

So this is a Joker match up thread correct?.... but what match ups does Joker win? out right? I can't think of any! Every match is bad for Joker or at best even. I've been playing Joker since the game came out, he's good, fun to play but really he doesn't have the right tools to dominate any match ups.

I think Joker players win match ups, not the character. Playing smart will always win out over match ups.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

So this is a Joker match up thread correct?.... but what match ups does Joker win? out right? I can't think of any! Every match is bad for Joker or at best even. I've been playing Joker since the game came out, he's good, fun to play but really he doesn't have the right tools to dominate any match ups.

I think Joker players win match ups, not the character. Playing smart will always win out over match ups.

Correct.

 

[KonDcnT]

So boon hinted that lower tier characters are getting major buffs. Lobo being directly mentioned. Bane also is hinted to be buffed hard. Any Mr J mains feel we'll get some love on yhe next patch?

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah the fact that sweep is so punishable hurts him a lot in this matchup because of the reach on lift. No good options for opening GL up if they play at all safe. Not a good time. I think lift only punishes gun if they duck it... possible that it works on block, but I can't say for sure.

since gun its +5 its not punishable lol

 

[Qwark28]

im expecting huge buffs for joker. huge. they cant leave him like this, at least lobo even now gets damage, mixups and oki situations, joker has nothing.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

snip

Yeah didn't have the frame data handy and didn't remember what the gun was on block. Whiffs like crazy, so that's more the issue anyway.
And yeah, Lobo's buffs addressed his issues VERY well, I'm excited to potentially pick him back up on the side because he's an awesome character. Those buffs have me expecting big things for Joker as well. I think we laid everything out as best as we could, so hopefully they took a look.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah didn't have the frame data handy and didn't remember what the gun was on block. Whiffs like crazy, so that's more the issue anyway.
And yeah, Lobo's buffs addressed his issues VERY well, I'm excited to potentially pick him back up on the side because he's an awesome character. Those buffs have me expecting big things for Joker as well. I think we laid everything out as best as we could, so hopefully they took a look.

the fact that they mentioned 2 out of 3 characters in the bottom 3 where joker is the worst and they continue by mentioning bane as low tier worries me.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

the fact that they mentioned 2 out of 3 characters in the bottom 3 where joker is the worst and they continue by mentioning bane as low tier worries me.

Yeah I don't get how Joker isn't in that tweet. He is EASILY worse off than Bane, arguably worse than Lobo, and pretty equivalent with Shazam. Maybe we haven't been loud enough? There is only so much asking for buffs I can handle... all we can do is identify the issues, present them, and hope they pick them up. With how comprehensive Lobo's buffs were and the fact that Joker is considered bottom 3 by roughly everyone has me hopeful enough that we'll be seeing some good stuff though. In NRS we... hope we can... trust.

 

[Qwark28]

e

Yeah I don't get how Joker isn't in that tweet. He is EASILY worse off than Bane, arguably worse than Lobo, and pretty equivalent with Shazam. Maybe we haven't been loud enough? There is only so much asking for buffs I can handle... all we can do is identify the issues, present them, and hope they pick them up. With how comprehensive Lobo's buffs were and the fact that Joker is considered bottom 3 by roughly everyone has me hopeful enough that we'll be seeing some good stuff though. In NRS we... hope we can... trust.

joker beats noone while shazam beats joker lol

 

[StevoSuprem0]

e
joker beats noone while shazam beats joker lol

Pshh... yeah, if you a bitch...
Haha, I'd say they're 5-5. Shazam's teleport saves him from setups, but we can read that an punish it, no? I don't recall the recovery on it.

 

[Qwark28]

Pshh... yeah, if you a bitch...
Haha, I'd say they're 5-5. Shazam's teleport saves him from setups, but we can read that an punish it, no? I don't recall the recovery on it.

very short recovery while frontal teleports almost unpunishable, even then you only get 8%

 

[StevoSuprem0]

very short recovery while frontal teleports almost unpunishable, even then you only get 8%

Yeah, Joker can outzone him, but he can get around it... just another match that you need to play smarter. In some ways, that's what I like about Joker... just needs to be more viable.
The dive he does (psycho crusher? I don't remember...) is punishable though right? And you can jump-> full combo punish a command grab if you read it properly, but that requires a good amount of matchup experience.