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Suggestions before balance patch as of 07/30

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
How do you hit him fullscreen when the lasers cover a lot of ground and have good recovery?
Idk, 26 startup for ground, 38 for straight?

Maybe it's just me being GL, but then again...there's Harley, Joker, DS, Sinestro, Cyborg, Zod, staff NW, WW in range of her projectiles, Aquaman, Batgirl, Adam...capable of hitting him out of lasers reliably before his laser hits.

Like...is anyone thinking about the actual properties of the lasers outside of damage and frame advantage...?
 

VOR

Apprentice
The main thing I would like to see from this patch is a universal walkspeed buff.

I really don't think every character should get the buff. some characters have too much range and too many other tools to make it work in the context with the lower tier characters who could really use a walkspeed buff.
 
Idk, 26 startup for ground, 38 for straight?

Maybe it's just me being GL, but then again...there's Harley, Joker, DS, Sinestro, Cyborg, Zod, staff NW, WW in range of her projectiles, Aquaman, Batgirl, Adam...capable of hitting him out of lasers reliably before his laser hits.

Like...is anyone thinking about the actual properties of the lasers outside of damage and frame advantage...?
Let's do the math here... Game runs at 60 fps, so 1 second = 60 frames.

A 26 frame startup is about a half-second. Just about everybody naturally can react to things in easily under a half second.

But take into account the startup of your own move you'd use to counter it, and then you have issues.

A 13 frame startup is a pretty fast firing projectile. But even with that, the 26 of ground lasers startup - 13 of a fast reaction shot means you have not 26 frames to react, but 13. Not almost half a second, but less than a quarter of a second to react and input the command.

That's not reasonable...
 

AZ MotherBrain

If you believe enough, -7 could be +7
I really don't think every character should get the buff. some characters have too much range and too many other tools to make it work in the context with the lower tier characters who could really use a walkspeed buff.
Yes I agree, I just said universal because to me, it seems like most of the cast struggles with this. I feel that the stages are just to big and dashing/jumping isn't always the best way to get in.
 

haketh

Champion
Like...is anyone thinking about the actual properties of the lasers outside of damage and frame advantage...?
If they did we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's funny how many people forget he can only MB the ground lazer if it touches you. If he does ground or air and you jump it you get free dashes. Straight lazer is duckable, yeah it recovers ridiculously quick but you can cover ground before then. And yeah he builds meter quickly but that's a problem wiht this games meter system. Meter gain needs a look at and gaining meter when you use MB moves needs to be removed.
 
If they did we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's funny how many people forget he can only MB the ground lazer if it touches you. If he does ground or air and you jump it you get free dashes. Straight lazer is duckable, yeah it recovers ridiculously quick but you can cover ground before then. And yeah he builds meter quickly but that's a problem wiht this games meter system. Meter gain needs a look at and gaining meter when you use MB moves needs to be removed.
Free dashes? As in plural? I play Lex and there's noooooo way I can get two dashes inbetween anything Supes does at range, even after a good read.

Also, universally changing the meter system like that would be a MASSIVE NERF to Lex Luthor...... I don't think a good alternative to nerfing Superman is to completely destroy a character that is already low-mid tier.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Let's do the math here... Game runs at 60 fps, so 1 second = 60 frames.

A 26 frame startup is about a half-second. Just about everybody naturally can react to things in easily under a half second.

But take into account the startup of your own move you'd use to counter it, and then you have issues.

A 13 frame startup is a pretty fast firing projectile. But even with that, the 26 of ground lasers startup - 13 of a fast reaction shot means you have not 26 frames to react, but 13. Not almost half a second, but less than a quarter of a second to react and input the command.

That's not reasonable...
I'm saying shoot your projectile before he does.
 

haketh

Champion
Free dashes? As in plural? I play Lex and there's noooooo way I can get two dashes inbetween anything Supes does at range, even after a good read.

Also, universally changing the meter system like that would be a MASSIVE NERF to Lex Luthor...... I don't think a good alternative to nerfing Superman is to completely destroy a character that is already low-mid tier.
Lex needs a good eye on him to, but the game itself shouldn't suffer because of a bad character.
 
I think one issue Injustice suffers from is not so much balance from character to character, but balance within a given character. Each character has dozens of moves, but a couple moves are extremely superior to other ones. So, it isn't just that Superman's f23 is good against other characters. It is that it is so obviously good compared to other options that a Superman player would be silly not to constantly use it. Every character has moves that are really slow or otherwise disadvantaged that they are hardly going to be used. In fact, we are seeing with each character a handful of moves that get repeated while the majority of moves aren't ever used. Thus, we have the allegation, which has some truth to it, that gameplay can visually be repetitive to borderline boring. Superman players are going to be using f23, breath, and eye lasers constantly because they are the best options. I can't fault a player like KDZ since he is playing to win, not playing to have the most visually appealing battle, but his play exemplifies that issue with Superman, even though it is present with most characters. It isn't just that f23 is good, it is that you know it is coming, again and again and again, to the exclusion of most everything else. Maybe part of the 'challenge' of a fighting game is supposed to be figuring out which moves in the character's toolbox are the best and which ones aren't, but that 'challenge' gets met pretty quickly, particularly with sites like TYM, and then we have those handful of BnB moves, BnB combos, and so on over and over again, and I think that is contributing to the feeling of IGAU being a little stale.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing every character get buffs in their 'less used' normals and other strings to give more variety to gameplay.
 

haketh

Champion
Like for real, the sheer numbers of people that haven't at least picked up a character like Deathstroke for problem MUs against Superman astound me.
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
Idk, 26 startup for ground, 38 for straight?

Maybe it's just me being GL, but then again...there's Harley, Joker, DS, Sinestro, Cyborg, Zod, staff NW, WW in range of her projectiles, Aquaman, Batgirl, Adam...capable of hitting him out of lasers reliably before his laser hits.

Like...is anyone thinking about the actual properties of the lasers outside of damage and frame advantage...?
I do consider their properties since I have to deal with them constantly with my sparring partner. But the frame numbers actually matter because Superman recovers too fast to make a punish consistently, and a bad read means Superman will do instant air lasers and punish you.

The problem with Superman's zoning, which makes it better than everyone else's zoning, is that on hit he sends you back fullscreen. You have to do on average 3-4 right reads / reactions to close the distance, whereas 1 mistake on your part means you have to start all over again. All other heavy zoning / keepaway characters don't do that.

Sinestro: no matter what he uses to hit you, you stay virtually in the same spot.
Deathstroke: no matter what he uses to hit you, you stay virtually in the same spot.
Raven: Soul Crush push you 1 step back at most. Singularity leaves you in the same spot. Pillars push you half a step back, and on MB 1 step.
Cyborg: no matter what he uses to hit you, you stay virtually in the same spot.
Green Lantern: no matter what he uses to hit you, you stay virtually in the same spot.

Superman, with his 2 "slow" zoning tools gets to tell you "f%*$ off" everytime he touches you. Sure regular lasers just knock you down but Superman has meter to spend the majority of the time.
 

VOR

Apprentice
Yes I agree, I just said universal because to me, it seems like most of the cast struggles with this. I feel that the stages are just to big and dashing/jumping isn't always the best way to get in.


I think a problem may then arise with zoning zealots, and they will say a walkspeed buff will ruin the game for zoning more, I don't really think making a Kenshi in this game is going to be what most people want tbh. But if they got a backdash buff, that could open up their movement, and you could at least punish their backdash, The game would open up a bit more. It's not something we can have all the answers to without having our hands on it and testing it, but it's something i really hope they're considering in this upcoming patch to help bring some fluidness to the game.
 

haketh

Champion
I want you to ask yourself something, why are you getting hit by the lazers? Next time you play against a Supes think about what just happened and why you got hit and sent back fullscreen.

Breath sending you back fullscreen is dumb as shit though.
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
I want you to ask yourself something, why are you getting hit by the lazers? Next time you play against a Supes think about what just happened and why you got hit and sent back fullscreen.

Breath sending you back fullscreen is dumb as shit though.
I get hit because my opponent is actually smart; mixes up the timming, height, and frequency of the lasers; changes his playstyle; etc. Your run of the mill Superman likes to do consecutive zaps and full height regular air lasers, both of which are easy to deal with and punish heavily.

The problem is, the are more run of the mill Superman players than good ones, which in turn increases the downplaying.
 
Like for real, the sheer numbers of people that haven't at least picked up a character like Deathstroke for problem MUs against Superman astound me.
If people try picking up a counter for every bad MU, they wont be able to focus on any less than three in most cases.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Pushing you full screen does not equal better than everyone else. Against those that can actually contest his laser game with their own projectiles (which is everyone I listed), he can't just throw out projectiles without thinking about how the opponent can react to them after avoiding them. Like, as GL, if Supes makes a wrong read on what he does with lasers, I can potentially be in his face on his wakeup. He cannot do repeated heat zaps, since I can do MB oa and curb that shit. Hell, Hawkgirl completely avoids his lasers game. If he does a ground or air laser at the wrong time, get Dr. Doomed. If he stays grounded, black magic/lightning strikes. Good luck getting your lasers out on Sinestro, DS, etc.

Most of the cast can deal with his lasers fine. Some characters flat out cut off lasers.
 

MetalPete

MACHKAAAAA!!!!!
Could we please not turn this useful and much needed thread into a Superman debate? Is it really that hard?
 

haketh

Champion
Could we please not turn this useful and much needed thread into a Superman debate? Is it really that hard?
Lets hope

Bildslash dude I feel for Lex players *I wanted to be one but I'm just a bit too much of a tier whore admittedly*, I really do but Lex is so far on the spectrum of bad when it comes to Lazers he shouldn't be the reason the lazers get murdered. I'd rather see Lex get some more decent mobility options to better deal with them.
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
Pushing you full screen does not equal better than everyone else. Against those that can actually contest his laser game with their own projectiles (which is everyone I listed), he can't just throw out projectiles without thinking about how the opponent can react to them after avoiding them. Like, as GL, if Supes makes a wrong read on what he does with lasers, I can potentially be in his face on his wakeup. He cannot do repeated heat zaps, since I can do MB oa and curb that shit. Hell, Hawkgirl completely avoids his lasers game. If he does a ground or air laser at the wrong time, get Dr. Doomed. If he stays grounded, black magic/lightning strikes. Good luck getting your lasers out on Sinestro, DS, etc.

Most of the cast can deal with his lasers fine. Some characters flat out cut off lasers.
Consecutive zaps are of course punishable. But you can't punish him if you dodge them by jumping or backdashing; by the time you recover he can do something else.

All zoners character actually respond to what he throws, don't outright punish him. GL can contest him because he has an air fireball; Adam, HG and WW can fight him on equal terms because they --like Superman-- have air mobility; Sinestro is very negative on block, Superman can start shooting stuff after he blocks correctly (or worse if he dodges a boulder); DS has the problem with whiffed high shots Superman has on whiffed zaps, and his low shots are as negative as Sinestro's. Superman is not helpless, specially since he has a trait that makes him deal more damage.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Consecutive zaps are of course punishable. But you can't punish him if you dodge them by jumping or backdashing; by the time you recover he can do something else.

All zoners character actually respond to what he throws, don't outright punish him. GL can contest him because he has an air fireball; Adam, HG and WW can fight him on equal terms because they --like Superman-- have air mobility; Sinestro is very negative on block, Superman can start shooting stuff after he blocks correctly (or worse if he dodges a boulder); DS has the problem with whiffed high shots Superman has on whiffed zaps, and his low shots are as negative as Sinestro's. Superman is not helpless, specially since he has a trait that makes him deal more damage.
sinestro should only use boulder o nreaction to superman jumping.

his projectile is not - fullscreen.
 

M-Aran-X

Mortal
What sups do you play against? They don't do Flying Ground Smash against you? If it was as simple as just crouching, we wouldn't be here wouldn't we?
what a scrub. I bet you don't know that after a b3 d2 the jd3 is coming. Typical scrub who doesn't want to learn and just complain the whole day.
 

M-Aran-X

Mortal
I don't think you understand what mix ups are. Mix ups do not have to be a continuous barrage of strings, mix ups are just making your attacks hard to predict. You can add mix ups to your pressure strings, I think that's where your confusion is. Let's say he does f23 xx breath, he back dashes and you think you can block the Ground Pound but it crosses you over. That's a mix up. Let's say he does 223 (last one is an overhead), but instead he goes for the scoop, or he just decides to go for the grab, etc etc. Sups controls everything in the game up close, he can whiff punish better than anyone, you can't jump on him, he has that loop pressure thing going on, he pretty much as every tool to deal with you up close. Saying something like "how can everyone bitch if you just need to block low, and if you can't see it coming better drop the game", just shows your lack of knowledge of how FGs work.
Sure thing random 2013 person.
really? I mean really? complaining about 223 and air dash mix up? one of the most predictable things ever? I really think you are starting to show the few knowledge about fighting games