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The Superman Nerf Chronicles

godlessmode

godlessmode

Apprentice
shaowebb said:
Pushblocking should be cheaper honestly. This is the first game I've ever played where it cost meter to pushblock.
Click to expand...

Or you should build meter while blocking.... I find that very odd that it costs meter to pushblock, the mechanic used to defend against block strings... but you don't build any meter from actually blocking.
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Warrior
PND i2 Gaug3 said:
Tru there are characters that cant backdash the full string but they still have the option of Mb b3/f3 and the other 2
Click to expand...
No you don't. The other thing about not being able to back dash out is that you lose the part of the guessing game where he does something risky to punish the back dash. So that leaves you with 2 of the 4 and both require meter.

And that's incredibly shitty. It's one thing to have an option to spend meter as a fallback, it's completely different when spending meter is your go to option. Especially when there's no way to build meter during the loop.
 
PND i2 Gaug3

PND i2 Gaug3

NERF Everything, LEAVE Nothing
4x4lo8o said:
No you don't. The other thing about not being able to back dash out is that you lose the part of the guessing game where he does something risky to punish the back dash. So that leaves you with 2 of the 4 and both require meter.

And that's incredibly shitty. It's one thing to have an option to spend meter as a fallback, it's completely different when spending meter is your go to option. Especially when there's no way to build meter during the loop.
Click to expand...

So because you cant back-dash the string your options are less look at the thought process between the other options

Not traited superman
use up to 7 frame normal to interrupt
MB
Pushblock

Traited
Interrupt
Pushblock

just because you loose an option doesn't mean the other option arent as good

the superman has to delay if he thinks you are going to try and interrupt to punish your normal you can jump out at that point
 
S

shoshinsha

Apprentice
Seriously, I wish people would give up on a "this is too good" versus "this isn't that good" debate. Simple question, pretty easy answer: is Superman in-line with most of the rest of the cast, or not? (Note: "most" of the rest of the cast means more than 50% at MINIMUM.)
 
Error

Error

DF2+R2
Make F2 a high is an unnecessary nerf. Making it 10 frames or slower Or adding a gap is the only change that makes sense.
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Warrior
PND i2 Gaug3 said:
So because you cant back-dash the string your options are less look at the thought process between the other options

Not traited superman
use up to 7 frame normal to interrupt
MB
Pushblock

Traited
Interrupt
Pushblock

just because you loose an option doesn't mean the other option arent as good

the superman has to delay if he thinks you are going to try and interrupt to punish your normal you can jump out at that point
Click to expand...
You listed 4 options and said 'it's as simple as that', so I was working within that and pointing out that multiple characters completely lack half of those options.

Like I said before, the guessing game around f23 is way more complicated than the 'Superman can only do these 3 things and opponents can beat them with these' thing is disingenuous at best. Figuring out how to get out of f23~breath isn't the problem. Honestly, there's no one here who can't tell you how to get out. It's the risk-reward associated with getting out. Some characters deal with it ok(mostly because they aren't missing semi-universal options like back dashing and on top of that have character specific options like parry or trait, which is why it's important for me to point out that some characters can't dash - not because they have no options but because it makes the options they do have less effective because Superman has less reason to do something that's risky or will let you out of the loop), but a ton of the cast has to resort to taking big risks or spending meter every single time they block a f2.


I don't know how many other characters have this problem, this may be boiling down to an Ares-Superman match up discussion(and if that's the case we should move it to a mu thread), but some characters have no moves to interrupt f2. The closest Ares can do is trade with s1 and Superman has no reason to fear that. The games been out for 3 months and I still have no idea what I'm supposed to do without putting myself at a severe disadvantage if I block f2 at the beginning of the match. There are no good options - I can basically chose to get hit by breath, wait and hope he gets bored looping before we get to the corner, or hope his timing's off and risk using a normal or jumping.
 
MetalPete

MetalPete

MACHKAAAAA!!!!!
So what is the actual problem here folks? Is it the f23 string or his trait? A lot of it seems to be that they just don't like the character of Superman. I think we forgot lots of people choose Superman as a main because of his reputation, not his match-up invincibility.

If it's f23: instead of completely destroying his most useful string, slightly decrease how far Supes moves when starting the string? His best skill is being able to push his opponent around the area and into the corner, but if you lessen the forward movement of f2 there's actually a chance he'll whiff; like most of the cast does. Or if that's not good enough then add a little more recovery to the f23 string on top of reducing f2's forward thrust.

If it's his trait: I suppose if you really want to just cripple the guy, make his trait start up like Raven's. But a more practical approach would be to increase recovery time and decrease additional damage.

edit: oh and make MB lasers crouch-blockable

Personally, it would be more fun to play Superman if b23 was more applicable outside the corner. Hell, I wouldn't even care if he just got his original damage back and the trait was used solely to diffuse armor.

I agree with others who are baffled that Superman is complained about this much when Batman and Flash have much better traits. Couple weeks ago some Flash delivered an 80% combo to me via 5+ head-butts in trait mode...now that was fucked up.
 
afrozilla86

afrozilla86

Apprentice
Gridman if your on psn mind running a few matches with me at some point online? And heat zap can go to 10% but chip only do 3% damage, not 5.5 or 7.75% on block, this move is a df1 aquaman in projectile form lol
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Warrior
MetalPete said:
So what is the actual problem here folks? Is it the f23 string or his trait?
Click to expand...
It's not one or the other. There's no 'actual problem', other than Superman being a dominate character that much of the cast feels unable to deal with.
When he has so many tools(strong zoning, difficult pressure to get out of, great dashes, awesome whiff punishing, air mobility, high damage, ability to armor break) why would discussion of balance changes to be focused on one of them?

If you're a Bane or Grundy main then his trait is the most bullshit thing in the world, it seems custom designed to ruin your entire game.
For other characters it's the whole package that makes things frustrate. As an Ares player I spend most of the match trying to avoid f2 because my options for getting out of the loop suck, but the really dumb part is that even when I'm out of f2 range I get outzoned. I'm sure some characters feel the opposite - they work through lasers to get in and their reward is having to try to play footsies against f23.

You basically have to have strong zoning, counter zoning, and high mobility(or substitute one for high damage output) just to go even. The people who want nerfs would like that to change, and there are multiple ways to make it happen
 
afrozilla86

afrozilla86

Apprentice
You want to go even with superman, pick up the kryptonite ring and you win on neutral turf a lot of times. If superman still feels to broken, go play ssbb metaknight with ness or bbcs litchi with tager
 
MetalPete

MetalPete

MACHKAAAAA!!!!!
4x4lo8o said:
If you're a Bane or Grundy main then his trait is the most bullshit thing in the world, it seems custom designed to ruin your entire game.
For other characters it's the whole package that makes things frustrate. As an Ares player I spend most of the match trying to avoid f2 because my options for getting out of the loop suck, but the really dumb part is that even when I'm out of f2 range I get outzoned. I'm sure some characters feel the opposite - they work through lasers to get in and their reward is having to try to play footsies against f23.

You basically have to have strong zoning, counter zoning, and high mobility(or substitute one for high damage output) just to go even. The people who want nerfs would like that to change, and there are multiple ways to make it happen
Click to expand...
So what did you think about my suggestions as far as "nerfing"? If he doesn't move almost a full dash with f2, a lot of the pressure is relieved. I use Doomsday a lot so I feel your pain regarding the armor break and I also use Raven, so I can understand the frustration of getting "out-zoned" because her trait takes so long to start that you eat a laser at least once trying to activate it for teleport.

What needs to be thought about is that no matter how hard a character is nerfed, players will still find ways to abuse projectiles and hit boxes. The fact that you can get sucked into Frost/Arrow/Batman's slide and Lantern's b1 at the end of the animation is just as lame and projectiles like Seaman's shrimp-fork toss are almost impossible to jump over.
 
TH3DISTURBED1

TH3DISTURBED1

"Never say 'never'
Kiko said:
The point that people that bring up Superman not having any lows (mix up game) is stupid.

You're right lets give this guy even more reason to destroy everyone else. Besides he does have mix up game, it's just unsafe.
Click to expand...
This "mixup game" you talk about does not exist. It's completely fuzzy guardable. You start blocking low and if he does 223, it's easy to react to
 
KDZ

KDZ

It's amore, BABY.
MetalPete said:
So what did you think about my suggestions as far as "nerfing"? If he doesn't move almost a full dash with f2, a lot of the pressure is relieved. I use Doomsday a lot so I feel your pain regarding the armor break and I also use Raven, so I can understand the frustration of getting "out-zoned" because her trait takes so long to start that you eat a laser at least once trying to activate it for teleport.

What needs to be thought about is that no matter how hard a character is nerfed, players will still find ways to abuse projectiles and hit boxes. The fact that you can get sucked into Frost/Arrow/Batman's slide and Lantern's b1 at the end of the animation is just as lame and projectiles like Seaman's shrimp-fork toss are almost impossible to jump over.
Click to expand...

Watch me vs Blind Ducky's Raven, since you apparently can't play the matchup. Superman zoning vs Raven's zoning is a 0-10 matchup.
 
MetalPete

MetalPete

MACHKAAAAA!!!!!
The sole reason I started playing her was to deal with the recent influx Supermen and most of the time it does work, but only if I stand 3/4 screen and watch my opponents animations. Just standing there trading projectiles 3/4 to full-screen I give it to Raven almost every time, but once soul crush starts getting blocked the momentum shifts away from Raven drastically; hence why you beat him at evo.
 
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