What is the current tier list for IGAU as of 7/23/2013?

[shaowebb]

For strings focus on blocking low, his overheads are second hit of EX superpunch, or the third hit of his strings which are very slow.


His lasers you block low and and hit back when the laser touches you, this way it doesn't matter which laser he uses since you start out ducking.

Suddenly his strings and zoning become far less threatening. This is not even looking at interuptable areas, or moves that can be backdashed and punished or so on and so fourth.

His lasers are +20 on block for zap and +11 on block for MB heat vision which if he reads block he should be doing. That level of frame advantage on a blocked projectile is stupid and his zoning is not FAR less threatening when you realize this allows him to dash right up your throat, and go for throw, strings, lows or anything else he chooses. And his strings, LIKEWISE, leave him at advantage as F2d13 leaves him at friggin +5 on block and is an overhead involved string he can option into off of zap, and his other stuff at WORST on block still leaves him at only a -2 advantage all the way to that +5.-2 doesn't mean much when the fastest moves in the game are 6 frame lows and a 2 frame super and he has BOTH to followup with if he panics.

This is NOT far easier to deal with as you claim it to be because he is put at frame advantage on block to go into his tools over and over again at frame advantage. Blocking Superman only heightens his odds of starting his stuff in many scenarios (especially his zoning) and he has a 6 frame low that is one of the fastest in the game as well that is +13 on hit. You cannot tell me knowing how to block him makes him far easier as the frame data on his advantage proves otherwise and the streams and tourney top 8's also prove otherwise. You can try to dodge him but there is no air blocking in this game so you had damn sure better read right. You can try to beat him to the punch but he beats most moves and builds enough meter to MB those attempts often should he choose to on aggressive types and you cant even use armor if you want to go this route due to his trait. When your best options are beat him to the punch or dodge in a game that favors zoning it becomes a damned difficult matchup and risky one to try and block punish in.

He is top, has proven he is top, and he will not drop. I'm sorry but IMO you are just wrong on this one.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

What did you expect? He's Superman.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

His lasers are +20 on block for zap and +11 on block for MB heat vision which if he reads block he should be doing. That level of frame advantage on a blocked projectile is stupid and his zoning is not FAR less threatening when you realize this allows him to dash right up your throat, and go for throw, strings, lows or anything else he chooses. And his strings, LIKEWISE, leave him at advantage as F2d13 leaves him at friggin +5 on block and is an overhead involved string he can option into off of zap, and his other stuff at WORST on block still leaves him at only a -2 advantage all the way to that +5.-2 doesn't mean much when the fastest moves in the game are 6 frame lows and a 2 frame super and he has BOTH to followup with if he panics.

I think you are forgetting start-up and recovery frames. It's not like his lasers turn you to stone with block advantage. Blocking heat vision gives you a free dash, maybe with mb version too although i'm not home to test for sure. Heat zap will not let you dash on block, but you should be ducking that anyway. you can also jump over heat vision to avoid it entirely.

 

[loogie]

More than f23 breath.

• He can mix it up up his f23 patterns with ground zap to screw with your block reads.
• use his lasers to generate enough block stun to dash in on folks
• he has a 2 frame super thats capable of stuffing everything
• all his moves are so low on startup and recovery (especially on meter burn) that he can pressure with the best of them
• he is extremely high damage
• generates great meter yet is not meter reliant to do combos...basically nets him easy additional pressure and quicker access to the super yet his game doesnt' justify why he should battery so well
• fucking stupid reset damage...like REALLY fucking stupid
• you cannot pick armor to get around him as his gimmick breaks it
• he is VERY low execution low risk HIGH reward
• he has armored wakeups that are among some of the best in the game so you cant pressure his wakeup very easily...you generally have to block because guessing air grab low grab or other is like rolling the dice on your character
• he has one of the best throws I've seen and it MURDERS wakeups
• he has excellent air mobility with his air dash that leads to crossups and full combos
• deceptive hit boxes and hit properties create blocking scenarios that require additional knowledge and makes him a hard character to just read and react to without experience in the matchup for your character vs all his tools (huge range on moves that look to not come out that far, breathe not having a hit box the full length of its animation, and a laser that strafes the ground that is NOT a low? Cmon...how the hell do you read this guy when he is counterintuitive to common sense reads of how a move initially appears to operate. Tons of his stuff defies the logical assumption of how its hit properties work and in general he out priorities most shit with it due to his insane frame data)
• he has access to the power interactibles on stages and those are the best in the game
• and his best strings come out SO FAR and are so fast they outpoke and stuff folks.

He is FAR too high of a reward for FAR too little effort. Next to zero risk to anything he does and all his tools let him force the match to run at his own pace. In general, he forces a completely to near completely reactionary form of gameplay at all times but is not restricted to any single tactic of play as he excels at ALL of them. Way to plus on block, low on startup and recovery to warrant his damage. Character is just plain braindead even if you can mix up your tactics.

Well, he is Superman... The name says it all
He's supposed to be the all powerful superhero. Not surprises they made him so

 

[regulas]

His lasers are +20 on block for zap and +11 on block for MB heat vision which if he reads block he should be doing. That level of frame advantage on a blocked projectile is stupid and his zoning is not FAR less threatening when you realize this allows him to dash right up your throat, and go for throw, strings, lows or anything else he chooses. And his strings, LIKEWISE, leave him at advantage as F2d13 leaves him at friggin +5 on block and is an overhead involved string he can option into off of zap, and his other stuff at WORST on block still leaves him at only a -2 advantage all the way to that +5.-2 doesn't mean much when the fastest moves in the game are 6 frame lows and a 2 frame super and he has BOTH to followup with if he panics.

This is NOT far easier to deal with as you claim it to be because he is put at frame advantage on block to go into his tools over and over again at frame advantage. Blocking Superman only heightens his odds of starting his stuff in many scenarios (especially his zoning) and he has a 6 frame low that is one of the fastest in the game as well that is +13 on hit. You cannot tell me knowing how to block him makes him far easier as the frame data on his advantage proves otherwise and the streams and tourney top 8's also prove otherwise. You can try to dodge him but there is no air blocking in this game so you had damn sure better read right. You can try to beat him to the punch but he beats most moves and builds enough meter to MB those attempts often should he choose to on aggressive types. When your best options are beat him to the punch or dodge in a game that favors zoning it becomes a damned difficult matchup and risky one to try and block punish in.

He is top, has proven he is top, and he will not drop. I'm sorry but IMO you are just wrong on this one.

If you focus on blocking low then you should never ever be getting hit by heat zap, and you should be easily blocking the MB laser, though it is good advantage it still costs meter and especially if he is doing the flight variant he may not be able to follow up well, also if you do the block low into high trick you will be able to bait out the meter too.


If you can consistently block him then he basically can't ever combo off you, from there just figure out what moves your character can do that will work.

For a character to stay high tier he needs to have a real mix-up or 50/50 something of equal speed and threat that MUST be read to block. As it stands everything he has with practice can be blocked by simple strategies that don't require reading, because you can basically just hold low all day save for the few very easy to react to exceptions. Flying dashes in order to mix-up overheads is probably the most threatening tool he has.

Also throw is not a character specific move.


KDZ who won EVO with Superman has basically gone on tirades at how he has basically won because no-one knew how to properly counter superman and not because superman is actually that godlike.

NOTE: I'm not saying it's easy to counter Superman, i'm saying that it is possible

 

[Briggs8417]

What in the living hell are so many people downplaying WW for? She's the best character in the game. The only thing she can't do better than Superman is zone, but she doesn't really need to do that anyway. Every other area she can outplay him in and do it without having to burn any meter. Her trait makes her that much scarier when used correctly.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

In this thread, non-WW players tell us how our character is worse than superman, whilst using no information to back it up.

 

[TakeAChance]

What in the living hell are so many people downplaying WW for? She's the best character in the game. The only thing she can't do better than Superman is zone, but she doesn't really need to do that anyway. Every other area she can outplay him in and do it without having to burn any meter. Her trait makes her that much scarier when used correctly.

Save your breath. Eventually WW will be revealed as the new Sonya. The one EVERYONE sleeps on and then the one that dominates top 8's.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I don't think she'll be a Sonya, Sonya was ultimately one dimensional, WW needs to use a considerable amount of her options to be effective.

 

[shaowebb]

If you focus on blocking low then you should never ever be getting hit by heat zap, and you should be easily blocking the MB laser, though it is good advantage it still costs meter and especially if he is doing the flight variant he may not be able to follow up well, also if you do the block low into high trick you will be able to bait out the meter too.


If you can consistently block him then he basically can't ever combo off you, from there just figure out what moves your character can do that will work.

For a character to stay high tier he needs to have a real mix-up or 50/50 something of equal speed and threat that MUST be read to block. As it stands everything he has with practice can be blocked by simple strategies that don't require reading, because you can basically just hold low all day save for the few very easy to react to exceptions. Flying dashes in order to mix-up overheads is probably the most threatening tool he has.

Also throw is not a character specific move.


KDZ who won EVO with Superman has basically gone on tirades at how he has basically won because no-one knew how to properly counter superman and not because superman is actually that godlike.

NOTE: I'm not saying it's easy to counter Superman, i'm saying that it is possible

Then we will wait and see which of us is right. Currently though I just dont see a single thing that says even with knowledge that he'll suddenly relent in any single aspect of his game and with damage that high you only need it to work once. You keep quoting KDZ, but just because he won EVO doesn't mean its gospel that his character isn't needing some more checks and balances to make him fair. There are plenty of other top tourney players that say just the opposite on the character, as well.

Lets just see if the tournaments start showing him drop off the charts or if Superman players continue to improve alongside everyone else and continue to remain dominant. I'd love to be proven wrong on this one. For now though there is no tourney or frame evidence to support it in my eyes.

 

[Groove Heaven]

...

You need to get over your whole "KF is mid-tier" thing. She's top 10 for sure, just out of top 5, which is pretty much what everyone on TYM told you when you made a thread about this.

 

[Fred Marvel]

Superman, Batman, WW, Adam, Aquaman, Batgirl, Flash (after buffs). - Top Tier
Deathstroke, GL, Frost, Doomsday Raven, Catwoman, GA - High/Upper Mid Tier

 

[Foreskin Fissure]

If you focus on blocking low then you should never ever be getting hit by heat zap, and you should be easily blocking the MB laser, though it is good advantage it still costs meter and especially if he is doing the flight variant he may not be able to follow up well, also if you do the block low into high trick you will be able to bait out the meter too.


If you can consistently block him then he basically can't ever combo off you, from there just figure out what moves your character can do that will work.

For a character to stay high tier he needs to have a real mix-up or 50/50 something of equal speed and threat that MUST be read to block. As it stands everything he has with practice can be blocked by simple strategies that don't require reading, because you can basically just hold low all day save for the few very easy to react to exceptions. Flying dashes in order to mix-up overheads is probably the most threatening tool he has.

Also throw is not a character specific move.


KDZ who won EVO with Superman has basically gone on tirades at how he has basically won because no-one knew how to properly counter superman and not because superman is actually that godlike.

NOTE: I'm not saying it's easy to counter Superman, i'm saying that it is possible

How does that explain Black Adam? BA has no 50/50 whatsoever and all of his strings can be blocked high, unless he goes for a thunderbolt which is slow enough to block on reaction at 26 frames.

The problem with supes that you missed in Shaoweb's post (and I agree with) is the fact that you're CONSTANTLY forced to block him and not put out any pressure of your own because of the insane frame advantage he has on he majority of his tools. Not only does he have this but then his zoning is absolutely ridiculous, and when you manage to finally get in on it, most characters are still at a disadvantage cause 80% of this cast has no way to punish his most abused f23 breath. (And I actually think its more than 80% but I'm just throwing a figure out there).

You speak of consistently blocking him, well look at the grand finals of evo as a prime example, outside of the corner KDZ EXCLUSIVELY uses F23 breath. There is no need to use any of his other strings because of how powerful this one is. Cancel 3 into the breath for a safe getaway or another free F2 or cancel into trait for a throw which can only be punished by d1 special, and considering that superman has a) the fastest frame super in the game (2 -_-) , and b) has the Highest damage output n the game over all when taking into consideration MID AND CORNER combos what risk is he really taking by taking at most 20%?And something I should have said at the beginning which is that F2 is an 8 FRAME ADVANCING NORMAL, which at 8 frames is humanly impossible to react to and punish, with a 3 ready to blow you up if you whiff on anything you just tried to use to punish the f2 with.

On the subject of KDZ CLEARLY DOWNPLAYING, he just doesn't want his favorite character nerf, it was the same with PL and scorpion, and when that rumor about batman came out of him getting nerfed it was the same with REO. No one wants to see their clearly broken characters nerfed cause they just wanna win.

 

[regulas]

Then we will wait and see which of us is right. Currently though I just dont see a single thing that says even with knowledge that he'll suddenly relent in any single aspect of his game and with damage that high you only need it to work once. You keep quoting KDZ, but just because he won EVO doesn't mean its gospel that his character isn't needing some more checks and balances to make him fair. There are plenty of other top tourney players that say just the opposite on the character, as well.

Lets just see if the tournaments start showing him drop off the charts or if Superman players continue to improve alongside everyone else and continue to remain dominant. I'd love to be proven wrong on this one. For now though there is no tourney or frame evidence to support it in my eyes.

Everything I have seen suggests that most pro's have yet to even master a lot of basic gameplay elements of this game, ChrisG is the most famous example since his GA isn't even all that spectacular, but he still wins because he focuses on basic gameplay.

 

[regulas]

How does that explain Black Adam? BA has no 50/50 whatsoever and all of his strings can be blocked high, unless he goes for a thunderbolt which is slow enough to block on reaction at 26 frames.

The problem with supes that you missed in Shaoweb's post (and I agree with) is the fact that you're CONSTANTLY forced to block him and not put out any pressure of your own because of the insane frame advantage he has on he majority of his tools. Not only does he have this but then his zoning is absolutely ridiculous, and when you manage to finally get in on it, most characters are still at a disadvantage cause 80% of this cast has no way to punish his most abused f23 breath. (And I actually think its more than 80% but I'm just throwing a figure out there).

You speak of consistently blocking him, well look at the grand finals of evo as a prime example, outside of the corner KDZ EXCLUSIVELY uses F23 breath. There is no need to use any of his other strings because of how powerful this one is. Cancel 3 into the breath for a safe getaway or another free F2 or cancel into trait for a throw which can only be punished by d1 special, and considering that superman has a) the fastest frame super in the game (2 -_-) , and b) has the Highest damage output n the game over all when taking into consideration MID AND CORNER combos what risk is he really taking by taking at most 20%?And something I should have said at the beginning which is that F2 is an 8 FRAME ADVANCING NORMAL, which at 8 frames is humanly impossible to react to and punish, with a 3 ready to blow you up if you whiff on anything you just tried to use to punish the f2 with.

On the subject of KDZ CLEARLY DOWNPLAYING, he just doesn't want his favorite character nerf, it was the same with PL and scorpion, and when that rumor about batman came out of him getting nerfed it was the same with REO. No one wants to see their clearly broken characters nerfed cause they just wanna win.

Honestly I could have left out KDZ entirely and it wouldn't change any of my points, it was just a physical example that you are already aware of.

You know the F2 is coming so backdash and punish, breath pushes you far enough back that F2 can't catch the dash, and don't be stupid about what you pick to punish with.

There are two reasons you are forced to block A: You don't know where the opening are, and B: you don't know what moves win and what moves loose.

What you want to do is sit and turtle until one of the many viable windows open up and then combo.

 

[@MylesWright_]

You need to get over your whole "KF is mid-tier" thing. She's top 10 for sure, just out of top 5, which is pretty much what everyone on TYM told you when you made a thread about this.

She's easier to fight then to fight with

 

[Foreskin Fissure]

Honestly I could have left out KDZ entirely and it wouldn't change any of my points, it was just a physical example that you are already aware of.

You know the F2 is coming so backdash and punish, breath pushes you far enough back that F2 can't catch the dash, and don't be stupid about what you pick to punish with.

There are two reasons you are forced to block A: You don't know where the opening are, and B: you don't know what moves win and what moves loose.

What you want to do is sit and turtle until one of the many viable windows open up and then combo.

what window do you have to punish when ALL of his tools end in positive or at the msot -2 frames?

 

[Groove Heaven]

She's easier to fight then to fight with

That's such a vague and subjective-sounding statement I don't even really know what you mean.

Let me make it clear. She has downfalls and she's not nearly as good as she was at launch, but she still has amazing tools and she's still better than most of the cast.

 

[Foreskin Fissure]

That's such a vague and subjective-sounding statement I don't even really know what you mean.

Let me make it clear. She has downfalls and she's not nearly as good as she was at launch, but she still has amazing tools and she's still better than most of the cast.

everyones falling for the most obvious troll on tym stop feeding it plz

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Yeah I agree 100%, WW is great.... but Supermans zoning makes him better. WW is WAYYYYY more fun to play as though... takes more brains and not everyone uses her.

I agree, WW definitely more fun to play as and takes more execution, i'll keep putting time into her, probably have her rdy by my next major.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

The whole WW takes brains argument against Superman doesn't make her any worse. She's definitely a better character than Superman.

IDK why people say about her lack of a full screen projectile, that would be the stupidest thing ever. Fullscreen projectile in SS would mean she'd be the ultimate turtle in the game. She'd be Kenshi with a high hitting shoulder since shield toss is only -2.

Its not like she doesnt already have iadg.

as of right now, superman is above WW. When you compare the two and their matchups, superman comes out on top. Now I heard they are nerfing superman, so that would be the only reason why she'd have a chance to be better, but as of right now, supes is better. You got to take into account his f2 (8 frames, has a big hitbox, and of course advances), best super in the game (punishes all negative moves), most damage in the game because of his trait/ his trait is armor breaking. Also his zoning is pretty good as well and builds him good meter. Heck he even has a legit d2, superman is the full package, no one can deny that.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

Well, we all know supes and bladam run the show right now. My top five are
1. Superman
2. Bladam
3. Aqua man
4. Flash
5. Wonder woman

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Tier power currently is based over Safeness or Easiness more then anything else. Many characters that are low tier have theoretically better power then Superman, but just require a level of execution that is months away to actually do better.

Superman, Batman, GL are good examples of characters who will eventually fall out of top tier without even needing nerfs... but it will take a long time to get there.

GL is staying top tier because he isn't getting nerfed (barely anyone talks about him or complains about him plus he already moves like a truck, so he is fine). Batman is staying top tier as long as he doesn't get nerfed, and superman is supposed to get a nerf, but I have a feeling he'll still be legit.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

i love how wonderwoman is so unexplored, even among her users that shes not recognized as top 3 matterial.

which matchup does she struggle in? none. foxy needs to yet again open your eyes, just like sonya and KL

Like KL? pls I knew about KL before anyone and blew him up accordingly (undefeated vs lao in tournament). Also I learned sonya from morty. About WW and who she could possible struggle with, haven't seen her enough in matchups so I can't comment on that, but i'm sure she loses to someone.

 

[Qwark28]

Like KL? pls I knew about KL before anyone and blew him up accordingly (undefeated vs lao in tournament). Also I learned sonya from morty. About WW and who she could possible struggle with, haven't seen her enough in matchups so I can't comment on that, but i'm sure she loses to someone.

foxy and UFG invented the KL metagame + bird lao IIRC.

WW with the lifelead cant be zoned, her rushdown is simply awesome, her frametraps ridiculous, her corner game top 3, her otgs hella good and she has no trouble getting in.

people are sleeping on this character, i think in a few months when ppl start exploring her ppl will see she has no bad matchups at all, she just requires work unlike 80% of this shallow games characters.