Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[Qwark28]

If you dash and teeth, they will be hitting you before the teeth hit the ground if they are any good... there just isn't enough time there in my experience, maybe I'm wrong though. In the corner, he's great. Not in the corner, though, he struggles to close gaps and keep pressure on against alot of characters. Teeth are the key, but there are ways for them to get out safely when they figure out how. So, I guess we agree to disagree.

what ive been saying for the past 3 posts is that you can take advantage of the fact theyre doing a specific move to get out of the damn teeth

 

[StevoSuprem0]

what ive been saying for the past 3 posts is that you can take advantage of the fact theyre doing a specific move to get out of the damn teeth

But they aren't always. Most characters have multiple options, which is what holds it back from being good truly good. Makes you have to guess right twice in a row (far teeth for tech roll, close for not) and for what they follow up with. That's what I've been saying. That's not a 50/50, that's a 25/75.

 

[Qwark28]

But they aren't always. Most characters have multiple options, which is what holds it back from being good truly good. Makes you have to guess right twice in a row (far teeth for tech roll, close for not) and for what they follow up with. That's what I've been saying. That's not a 50/50, that's a 25/75.

what multiple options? there is either wakeup or tech roll or just sit there, it is a 50/50. either J3 and hit them while sitting there and get a combo, they tech roll, letting you get J3 into free pressure or they wakeup.

 

[MetaSkipper]

But which wakeup move?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

what multiple options? there is either wakeup or tech roll or just sit there, it is a 50/50. either J3 and hit them while sitting there and get a combo, they tech roll, letting you get J3 into free pressure or they wakeup.

If they techroll, stand up, and back block after you throw teeth and got for a jump in at them, the jump in attack will hit them out of the teeth, and you'll be punished. That's the completely safe escape that everyone has in that situation. If you dash in and try to teeth, you will get punished while throwing the teeth.

 

[Qwark28]

If they techroll, stand up, and back block after you throw teeth and got for a jump in at them, the jump in attack will hit them out of the teeth, and you'll be punished. That's the completely safe escape that everyone has in that situation. If you dash in and try to teeth, you will get punished while throwing the teeth.

what are you talking about? if you throw teeth and they tech roll you can J3 and be +15

 

[StevoSuprem0]

what are you talking about? if you throw teeth and they tech roll you can J3 and be +15

Yeah I'm wrong on the punish there, was thinking of something else. So yeah, you keep the pressure on if they block out. Still- not a 50/50 when there is a completely safe way out every time. That's been what my point is.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah I'm wrong on the punish there, was thinking of something else. So yeah, you keep the pressure on if they block out. Still- not a 50/50 when there is a completely safe way out every time. That's been what my point is.

So? You just got a solution to people tech rolling, you still get free pressure/damage in one situation and a punish into the same setup in the other case.

tech rolling in the end is just denying you damage but still giving you something if you know how to deal with it.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

So? You just got a solution to people tech rolling, you still get free pressure/damage in one situation and a punish into the same setup in the other case.

tech rolling in the end is just denying you damage but still giving you something if you know how to deal with it.

Yeah I'll give you that. Guess I just need to get used to keeping the pressure on instead of stopping because they blocked. I still think some characters will poke out and have ways to get reverse the situation though after the ji3 is blocked. Need to test more. Not trying to get all argumentative here, just debating how well this stuff works. In my experience, it's been escapeable, but I might just not be following up properly after the block. I'll try it out this weekend!

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah I'll give you that. Guess I just need to get used to keeping the pressure on instead of stopping because they blocked. I still think some characters will poke out and have ways to get reverse the situation though after the ji3 is blocked. Need to test more. Not trying to get all argumentative here, just debating how well this stuff works. In my experience, it's been escapeable, but I might just not be following up properly after the block. I'll try it out this weekend!

J3 into 212 is guaranteed, tried it on lex and online. you can hit confirm on hit and convert the j3 or 21 into a combo or continue with a 212 setup

 

[StevoSuprem0]

J3 into 212 is guaranteed, tried it on lex and online. you can hit confirm on hit and convert the j3 or 21 into a combo or continue with a 212 setup

I figured that would be the starter string of choice, my only concern was if the j3 spaced them too much. That's pretty solid then, good shit man. I'll be trying that out this weekend.

 

[Qwark28]

I figured that would be the starter string of choice, my only concern was if the j3 spaced them too much. That's pretty solid then, good shit man. I'll be trying that out this weekend.

If you mess up the J3 you can just do a guaranteed 11

 

[StevoSuprem0]

If you mess up the J3 you can just do a guaranteed 11

Mess up as in it whiffs (press it too late) or do it too soon and decrease the advantage?

 

[Qwark28]

Mess up as in it whiffs (press it too late) or do it too soon and decrease the advantage?

when it decreases the adv

 

[StevoSuprem0]

when it decreases the adv

Gotcha. On thing that throws a wrench in this, which may be why I have hesitated to do this, are characters with parries. My main sparring partner plays batman, and if he throws out a parry when I try to nail the 212 after he blocks the ji3, he'll get it. However, that's punishable if you read it- either throw teeth when you think the parry is coming and start a teeth loop combo, or delay the 212 until the active frames are up (nj2/crossup ji2 might be more safe though because they can't be parried, just incase you don't time it out right). This will be the case for Batman, Zod, WW, KF, and the mirror match. Just more stuff to consider (perfect for a matchup thread; FULL CIRCLE, WOOT... hahaha).

 

[laudanum09]

love the back and forth here. honestly these are things that should be standard knowledge by now, not that I knew any better. having legit teeth setups while minimizing all escape options and having an answer for them, getting parry science developed, maximizing damage off of teeth will be good for everyone.

joker is slept on no doubt and if hes developed more then he should move up a tier. not to say he doesnt have a ton of problems, but imo being zoned out is not one of them. Coming from sf4 and marvel, I'm amazed at how people have trouble blocking and then dashing and blocking in anticipation. you can't even do that against sagat's tiger shots full screen, you can only walk granted the speed is much faster esp if youre bison or akuma.

also, the hardest time against deathstroke i've had is when they are full screen and not doing a single thing but simply waiting to react. reactionary zoning is a tough game to play against with joker, but if they're actively trying to keep you out, you shouldn't have too much of a problem closing the gap with patience.

edit: sinestro's trait however makes it really hard for joker. mb armor absorbing safe crowbar will help Joker a lot as something to throw out to cover some ground. unreasonable request?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

love the back and forth here. honestly these are things that should be standard knowledge by now, not that I knew any better. having legit teeth setups while minimizing all escape options and having an answer for them, getting parry science developed, maximizing damage off of teeth will be good for everyone.

joker is slept on no doubt and if hes developed more then he should move up a tier. not to say he doesnt have a ton of problems, but imo being zoned out is not one of them. Coming from sf4 and marvel, I'm amazed at how people have trouble blocking and then dashing and blocking in anticipation. you can't even do that against sagat's tiger shots full screen, you can only walk granted the speed is much faster esp if youre bison or akuma.

also, the hardest time against deathstroke i've had is when they are full screen and not doing a single thing but simply waiting to react. reactionary zoning is a tough game to play against with joker, but if they're actively trying to keep you out, you shouldn't have too much of a problem closing the gap with patience.

edit: sinestro's trait however makes it really hard for joker. mb armor absorbing safe crowbar will help Joker a lot as something to throw out to cover some ground. unreasonable request?

I just want batman during batarang throw and flash while he's sprinting off RMS to not be under the guns hit box. I tested it- out of everyone with high hitting projectiles, Joker's is the only one that whiffs in these two situations. Should. Not. Be.

 

[Qwark28]

I just want batman during batarang throw and flash while he's sprinting off RMS to not be under the guns hit box. I tested it- out of everyone with high hitting projectiles, Joker's is the only one that whiffs in these two situations. Should. Not. Be.

flash is supposed to duck projectiles

batman and shazam arent though

 

[StevoSuprem0]

flash is supposed to duck projectiles

batman and shazam arent though

He's supposed to duck them when he crouches at the activation of RMS, not when he is actually sprinting though.

 

[Qwark28]

He's supposed to duck them when he crouches at the activation of RMS, not when he is actually sprinting though.

its stupid when he gets hit while running so low

 

[StevoSuprem0]

@Qwark28- Tested some of what we were talking about earlier on Lex. If he tech rolls and blocks, even though the ji3 puts him out of the teeth, Joker is indeed at enough advantage to hit him with a 212 if everything is timed right when he is set to Corp Charge on reversal- good stuff there. However, if he tech rolls and Corp Charges on wake up after you throw teeth and go for the jump in, he will either catch you in the air with it, or just glide under you and away to safety. This pretty much the same as what you found?
Seems to indicate that Joker has to be played according to what kinda wakeups the opponent is working with. I know, that's the case for most people, just pointing out that it dictates how effective teeth setups are if they have a pretty consistent out. Gotta compensate by reading advancing wakeups like this and pushblocking them back into teeth instead of going for the jump in? The fact that they can wake up in such a manner everytime means that teeth loops aren't gonna work too well on a bunch of the cast if they see it coming and act accordingly.

 

[Qwark28]

@Qwark28- Tested some of what we were talking about earlier on Lex. If he tech rolls and blocks, even though the ji3 puts him out of the teeth, Joker is indeed at enough advantage to hit him with a 212 if everything is timed right when he is set to Corp Charge on reversal- good stuff there. However, if he tech rolls and Corp Charges on wake up after you throw teeth and go for the jump in, he will either catch you in the air with it, or just glide under you and away to safety. This pretty much the same as what you found?
Seems to indicate that Joker has to be played according to what kinda wakeups the opponent is working with. I know, that's the case for most people, just pointing out that it dictates how effective teeth setups are if they have a pretty consistent out. Gotta compensate by reading advancing wakeups like this and pushblocking them back into teeth instead of going for the jump in? The fact that they can wake up in such a manner everytime means that teeth loops aren't gonna work too well on a bunch of the cast if they see it coming and act accordingly.

then you just block and punish, its a very unlikely and awkward scenario, i never seen anyone throw out something equal to a shoryuken when tech rolling

why pushblock? just block i t.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

then you just block and punish, its a very unlikely and awkward scenario, i never seen anyone throw out something equal to a shoryuken when tech rolling

why pushblock? just block i t.

Well if you have the teeth setup, you can pushblock them back onto it and follow up with a combo. Kinda like the tech you can do with 212 ->teeth being safe and pushblocking them back to catch them in the teeth, but the timing might not be right in this case.

 

[Qwark28]

Well if you have the teeth setup, you can pushblock them back onto it and follow up with a combo. Kinda like the tech you can do with 212 ->teeth being safe and pushblocking them back to catch them in the teeth, but the timing might not be right in this case.

if you end your combo in far teeth and they tech +wakeup they dont have invincibility frames, with the same J3 timing you can beat corp charge for 21%-full teeth combo

 

[StevoSuprem0]

What combo are you starting with there/using teeth from there. That's gotta be where we're differing.